Author Topic: Ray Allen the least of the problems  (Read 4054 times)

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Ray Allen the least of the problems
« on: February 12, 2010, 05:01:21 AM »

Offline rayallen1934

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If anything Paul Pierce should be stepping up. He is injured though and so is Kevin Garnett. So lets please give the Celtics a pass until they are somewhat healthy. Right? Everyone is already jumping the gun...but back the first point

Ive followed Ray Ray for years, and his first year as a Celtics he was an obvious big part of the offense, nowadays hes a fourth option, some might say no Rondo passes first, but thats not true, Rondo has really taken away shots and opportunities from Ray Allen (not in an entirely bad way), and since Ray is 4th option what else would you expect. The threes are always contested or their being put up at the buzzer.

I know people have crapped on Ray and say his shooting is finished but I highly disagree. Ray is a shooter and your gonna go through slumps. As bad as 35 % from three is, its not a sign of things to come.

All i know is getting 16 on 45% from the field , and adding unselfishness and decent team concept on offense and defense, not to mention playing high minutes every game is fine with me.

People dont realize that bringing in a better and younger superstar might mean a better future, but it will not mean better production.....that "Superstar" will still have to adjust to being a 4th option.

I can guarantee bringing in Kevin Martin or Jason Richardson or Kirk Hinrich will not make this team better, i actually think it will make them worse. Unless the entire team is overhauled and pierce of garnett are gone.

Think of what Ray Allen is having to go through, as Rondo becomes a superstar, he has to kinda hide on the corner now and almost being shoved out of his superstar status.

I am a Ray Allen fan but I realize that hes not the greatest player ever. That being said, I dont know any other player that does what he has to do with the team and puts in the most effort he can give.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 05:31:38 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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The Celtics problem has to do with team team mentality and commitment, it has zero to do with age and personal. They haven't had the fire since KG and PP got hurt initially. I have a good quite from Bill Russell that relates very well (but i can't find it right now) It will be posted later.

Long story short this team thinks that they can just lose to these teams and it'll be different in the playoffs. The teams that coast during the season usually don't win in the playoffs, lets hope that we come out like hellfire in the second half.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 06:50:40 AM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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You're a big Ray Allen fan. Got it, courtesy of your alias and prior posts that seemed to be interested in taking shots at other Celtics in the interest of boosting Ray.  Duly noted. 

A few assorted thoughts:

Ive followed Ray Ray for years, and his first year as a Celtics he was an obvious big part of the offense, nowadays hes a fourth option, some might say no Rondo passes first, but thats not true, Rondo has really taken away shots and opportunities from Ray Allen (not in an entirely bad way), and since Ray is 4th option what else would you expect. The threes are always contested or their being put up at the buzzer.

Ray takes one less field-goal attempt per 36 minutes than he did in his first season with the team and exactly as many free throws per 36 minutes as he did in his first season with the team.  In his three seasons with the Celtics, his usage rates have gone 21.6-20.8-20.4.  His usage rate was never below 27 in Seattle.  So, yes, his role in the offense has decreased during his time as a Celtic, but it's clear that the most precipitous drop (and thus likely the biggest adjustment) was in coming to Boston in the first place, not in the last two years. 

As for your claim about contested shots often coming at the buzzer, that's an anecdotal claim without much backing.  I can recall plenty of open looks that Ray has gotten on the wings and in the corner thanks to Rondo pushing the ball in transition.  In fact, in many of the cases in which the Celtics run the shot clock all the way down, Rondo is the one to end up with the ball in his hands pounding the dribble away and then taking a jumper.  I don't put this forth this as any sort of definitive refutation of your claim about the types of shots Ray gets but simply to point out that I'm unsure of just how much validity your claim has.

I know people have crapped on Ray and say his shooting is finished but I highly disagree. Ray is a shooter and your gonna go through slumps. As bad as 35 % from three is, its not a sign of things to come.

Says who?  Do you have any substantive backing for this or just gut feeling?

All i know is getting 16 on 45% from the field , and adding unselfishness and decent team concept on offense and defense, not to mention playing high minutes every game is fine with me.

His raw field-goal percentage is of virtually no consequence to me.  Effective field goal percentage and true shooting percentage provide a far more accurate reflection of a player's scoring efficiency as they account for made three-pointers and both made threes and foul shots respectively, with appropriate weighting.  By both of those measures, Ray is having his least efficient scoring season as a Celtic and shooting at levels below his career standards.

People dont realize that bringing in a better and younger superstar might mean a better future, but it will not mean better production.....that "Superstar" will still have to adjust to being a 4th option.

But when Ray was better and younger than he is now (i.e. the last two years), he posted true shooting percentages of 58.4 and then a bonkers 62.4 in his first two years as a Celtic.  Seems like better production isn't exactly impossible.

I can guarantee bringing in Kevin Martin or Jason Richardson or Kirk Hinrich will not make this team better,

With all due respect, does this mean anything? Guaranteeing something you have zero control over with little statistical or anecdotal evidence to back it up?

***

I should take a moment to disclaim all of the above by mentioning that I'm a big Ray Allen fan myself.  Love watching him play, love rooting for a guy who seems to be a consummate professional.  And the fan (as in, short for fanatic in me) wants to believe that this is just a temporary slump, that Ray will come out of it and be a valuable part of the Celtics going forward.  I'm not in favor of moving him just for the sake of moving him.

But I'm also not blind to the realities of his performance thus far this year, I'm not opposed to a move if it's the right one, and I think there's some balance to be added to the discussion you started above.

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Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 08:03:56 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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I don't think that any cogent discussion of moving Ray would be motivated by "problems." It would be motivated by the clear fact that his contract is one of the few chips Danny has to make a significant deal. Ray the player has more value to the Celtics than anyone else, clearly; Ray the contract has more value outside the ballclub.

I disagree - quite strongly, frankly - with the contention that what ails this club is mental. It's quite clear from where I sit that this club as currently constituted has some significant physical deficits that leave it at a major disadvantage against more athletic teams - which right now is just about everyone in the league.

There are some injury issues, certainly, but that is to be expected given the relatively elderly state of this team and the fact that the only young player making a significant contribution is Rondo.

You move Ray if you can acquire more athletic, younger players with potential. As an example, though, moving Ray for Hinrich - more athletic but a player with limited upside - and Thomas - clubhouse lawyer - would be a disaster, in my view.

Ray cannot be off the table, in my opinion. However, he should not be moved in an panic deal to save a season that is, in my view, all but gone from a championship perspective anyway.

This discussion isn't furthered by fan-based fingerpointing. It's furthered by understanding why Ray is on the table and understanding what MUST be obtained to realistically consider moving him.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 08:10:03 AM by CoachBo »
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Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 08:18:08 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I don't even want to trade Ray because of his play, i want to trade him so that we can get get younger. And MAYBE to shake up the team a little bit.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 09:39:37 AM »

Offline sk7326

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I don't even want to trade Ray because of his play, i want to trade him so that we can get get younger. And MAYBE to shake up the team a little bit.

Ray's problem is not the lack of good looks ... he is not making the ones he takes, and has lost the nerve to take more of them - which is hurting the team since he is still the percentage play to ask to step things up

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 11:50:59 AM »

Offline Jon

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I think the OP has a point.  After all, guess who has the best +/- on the team, none other than our boy, Ray.  Maybe this is why Doc plays him so much.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team=Celtics


Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 11:55:51 AM »

Offline timpiker

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they have a few problems but to me the biggest problem is D.  using the D they play they absolutely need KG to cover the lane and the basket and that is not happening this year. 

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 12:15:18 PM »

Offline Jon

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I rarely bump a thread (actually I think this is the first time I've ever done it); however, I'm really curious to know how the Ray bashers out there account for the fact that he has the best +/- on the team. 

See my above post for the link. 

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 12:41:49 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I rarely bump a thread (actually I think this is the first time I've ever done it); however, I'm really curious to know how the Ray bashers out there account for the fact that he has the best +/- on the team. 

See my above post for the link. 

  A lot of it is due to a couple of good stints with scrubs. Does anyone recall threads about Doc overplaying Ray in blowout wins? A few games like that are enough to turn the tables. Eddie/Ray/Marquis/Shelden/Sheed is +35 in 72 minutes and Eddie/Tony/Ray/Baby/Sheed is +16 in 30 minutes.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 01:15:12 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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I rarely bump a thread (actually I think this is the first time I've ever done it); however, I'm really curious to know how the Ray bashers out there account for the fact that he has the best +/- on the team. 

See my above post for the link. 

  A lot of it is due to a couple of good stints with scrubs. Does anyone recall threads about Doc overplaying Ray in blowout wins? A few games like that are enough to turn the tables. Eddie/Ray/Marquis/Shelden/Sheed is +35 in 72 minutes and Eddie/Tony/Ray/Baby/Sheed is +16 in 30 minutes.

Maybe this just means we need to be playing Marquis and Shelden instead of TA and BBD?!

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 01:48:34 PM »

Offline Jon

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Maybe.  Though sometimes in those blow outs, leads slip.  I just feel that for all the talk about Ray this year, people overlook that fact.  It'd be one thing if he was in the middle of the pack, but to be dramatically beating out everyone on the team in +/- really speaks volumes to what he does as far as spacing and ball handling. 

Also, maybe TA and BBD aren't as great as we thought.  Both are at the bottom (with Scal) as far as +/-.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 03:25:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Maybe.  Though sometimes in those blow outs, leads slip.  I just feel that for all the talk about Ray this year, people overlook that fact.  It'd be one thing if he was in the middle of the pack, but to be dramatically beating out everyone on the team in +/- really speaks volumes to what he does as far as spacing and ball handling. 

Also, maybe TA and BBD aren't as great as we thought.  Both are at the bottom (with Scal) as far as +/-.

  You also have to consider that neither Baby or TA played at all (or much) until the injuries struck. It's also true that we have a better scoring differential if you put TA in our regular lineup instead of Ray or instead of Paul, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 08:11:41 AM »

Offline Birdbrain

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Maybe.  Though sometimes in those blow outs, leads slip.  I just feel that for all the talk about Ray this year, people overlook that fact.  It'd be one thing if he was in the middle of the pack, but to be dramatically beating out everyone on the team in +/- really speaks volumes to what he does as far as spacing and ball handling. 

Also, maybe TA and BBD aren't as great as we thought.  Both are at the bottom (with Scal) as far as +/-.

  You also have to consider that neither Baby or TA played at all (or much) until the injuries struck. It's also true that we have a better scoring differential if you put TA in our regular lineup instead of Ray or instead of Paul, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

Yeah I would surmise you have a pretty good take on the situation.  +/- on the same team not my cup o' tea when determining who stays and who goes.

Why not start TA/Sheldon. What's scals +/- maybe he can get in the rotation as well.
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Re: Ray Allen the least of the problems
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2010, 08:41:28 AM »

Offline housecall

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As KG said on a NBA.tv interview last night at the allstar rookie/soph.ga. when Steve Smith asked, whats the major problems w/this team lately,"we as a team need to pick it up in third quarters,thats where we are getting killed,and with Marquis coming back it will be huge for us down the stretch".