Author Topic: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break  (Read 9678 times)

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Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 12:02:19 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm not sure I'm confident, but I'm cautiously optimistic.  People on board act like the last time this team was good was two years ago, when in reality it was closer to two months ago. 

What's happened since then?  A lot of injuries to an older team. 

It now finally seems like they're getting healthy.  And I know people like to "not make excuses," but if Ray was healthy last night, this team probably wins the game. 

I think we owe it to this group to keep things intact.  It'd be one thing if they were 100% healthy and losing these games, but we've yet to see the entire 9 man rotation completely healthy this entire season.  Let's see what they can do. 

Team needs a break.  I think the confidence level one has depends on your ability to think they can get healthy, like we'll snap our fingers, and these old players will suddenly get well.  That and their key frontcourt sub has been lousy in a way that we did not anticipate.  

The team can defend harder - that performance against Orlando on Xmas or the opener against Cleveland is still something to work towards.  However, Ray has been a poor 3 point shooter for 80% of this season - Eddie has been streaky but less good than he was a year ago.

Really if you want to break down where things have slipped between 2008 and 2010, look at it by possession (per 100 possessions):

In 2008 - we averaged 107.6 pts per 100 possessions, in 2010 we average 104.9 ... we allowed 96.2 in 2008, 99.0 now.  Both of the latter numbers are #1 in the league, but 2008 we were an all time great defensive team.  Now just in a fairly close cohort with OKC, CHA, ORL, LAL, CLE.

Let's put it this way.  In 2008, we were almost 3 points per 100 possessions better than the 2nd best defensive team.  Now, that margin separates the Celtics at #1 and 8th place.  So that is a 2.8 point slip.

Offensively in 2008 we averaged 107.6 pts per 100, in 2010 we average 104.9 ... from 10th in the league to 14th.  So we have lost 2.7 points there.  A net loss overall of 5.5 points (given the average NBA team averages a shade south of 100 possessions a game this is a reasonable estimate).

So where has the slippage been?

DEFENSE: In 2008, led the league in FG% defense (41.9%), 3PT defense, were 8th in defensive rebounding and led the league in turnovers forced ... and that offset our propensity to commit a lot of defensive fouls (22nd in the league).  

In 2010, slippage across the board, 6th in FG defense, 5th in 3PT defense, 12th in defensive rebounding, 2nd in turnovers forced ... and still commit a lot of fouls (21st)

OFFENSE: In 2008, 4th in the league in FG%, 5th in three point shooting and 6th in getting to the line, which made up for 17th in offensive rebounding and 29th in turnovers

In 2010, still shooting well overall (4th in the league) but down to 16th in three point shooting, 8th at getting to the line (though more Perk and Rondo trips) ... slipped to last in offensive rebounding, still 29th in turnovers

Put simply the team on offense's big problem is poor three point shooting, and an inability to grab those misses ... everything else is not that dissimilar ... is the slippage permanent or a temporary slump, who knows.  But that slippage, accompanied by slippage in defense, gives a sense of permanence to some of the problems.



  We aren't as good as we were in 2008, and I agree with your analysis, but in 2008 we were pretty close to healthy with a stable lineup from start to finish. That hasn't been the case this year. Before Paul went down our differential was probably at least 50% higher than it is now. We were leading the league in efficiency differential by a decent margin and now we're probably 5th or so. The real question is, if Paul and KG are healthier (December healthy, not 2008 healthy) and we have a cohesive lineup for a reasonable amount of time, will we go back to the way we were playing before the injuries hit?

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 12:05:37 PM »

Offline MattG12

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Concern is one thing... what is going on in this forum with all the "sky is falling" threads and the likes is a completely different matter. It's quite obvious we aren't were we're supposed to be, but the pathetic exaggeration that is going around here just screams of a loser attitude, an attitude that we constantly make fun of other teams'fans having.

Again, we're supposed to be better than that instead of crying like little babies for each and every minor crap.

That is the reason these forums exist. For everyone to post their opinions.

Zero problems with people posting their opinions, I'm simply saying that I like to think that Celtics fans are above the attitudes we mock fans from other teams for having. Else, why make fun of them? We're just making fun of ourselves. In fact, the attitudes we complain about how the Celtics are currently playing quite parallels the attitude of many of the fans here... so why expect better from them if we aren't behaving better ourselves?


I for one, don't make other team's fans for being realistic. I make fun of other teams fans for booing their own team. I've heard that happen in the Garden a couple times this year and I can't stand it. No matter how bad the Celtics get I would never boo them.

This, however, is not just Celtics fans complaining and being drama queens. There is a problem with this team, and we are just being realistic. We can't keep up with young teams anymore. I think our style could still help us beat teams like Cleveland, Orlando, and LA if we're lucky. However, we won't even see those teams in the playoffs if we can't get by the Hawks... which, lets face it, we can't.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 02:45:59 PM »

Offline Who

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Yes, still confident about the team's chances of contending for a title.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 03:42:41 PM »

Offline drza44

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The real question is, if Paul and KG are healthier (December healthy, not 2008 healthy) and we have a cohesive lineup for a reasonable amount of time, will we go back to the way we were playing before the injuries hit?

This is the question that I have for the so-called "realists" among Celtic fans.  Through the first third of the season, the Celtics were 22 - 5 with the best score differential in the league. 

In the 23 games since then, Garnett has missed 11 outright and played most others visibly hobbled.  Pierce has missed 7 outright and played several others visibly slowed.  And several other rotation players have also missed time.  In that stretch the team has gone 10 - 13.

According to the "realists", the last 23 games are more reflective of this team than the first 27.  It is declared impossible that we can beat the Hawks or other good teams, and the team should be blown up.

So again, the question is: which team is more realistically who we are?  And if you think it's the most recent 23 games, is it because you think Pierce and KG can never be December-of-09 healthy again?  Or you just think it's realistic that the team suddenly forgot how to play, regardless of team health?

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 03:44:04 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2010, 03:47:19 PM »

Offline Big_Matt34

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As bad as this team physically needs the all star break, they need it mentally too. I am calling it now, they come out rolling after the break.

Also Celts dont need the KG from 2 years ago, they just need the KG from before he got the leg injury this season and i think thats very possible.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2010, 03:54:24 PM »

Offline sk7326

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The real question is, if Paul and KG are healthier (December healthy, not 2008 healthy) and we have a cohesive lineup for a reasonable amount of time, will we go back to the way we were playing before the injuries hit?

This is the question that I have for the so-called "realists" among Celtic fans.  Through the first third of the season, the Celtics were 22 - 5 with the best score differential in the league. 

In the 23 games since then, Garnett has missed 11 outright and played most others visibly hobbled.  Pierce has missed 7 outright and played several others visibly slowed.  And several other rotation players have also missed time.  In that stretch the team has gone 10 - 13.

According to the "realists", the last 23 games are more reflective of this team than the first 27.  It is declared impossible that we can beat the Hawks or other good teams, and the team should be blown up.

So again, the question is: which team is more realistically who we are?  And if you think it's the most recent 23 games, is it because you think Pierce and KG can never be December-of-09 healthy again?  Or you just think it's realistic that the team suddenly forgot how to play, regardless of team health?

If you look at the 22-5 start, the team also played its softest stretch, and the #30 schedule in the league (from a points perspective).  The defense then was more or less the same as it is now.  We have slipped a little bit, but really we have been basically tied for #1 most of the season with a few other teams. 

The offense has gone in the toilet.  7 weeks ago, the team was still #4 in the league on offense, while since it has taken a swan dive to #14.  This has coincided with an increase in the level of opponents - a trip out West, finishing the series with the Hawks, a couple of losses to the Magic. 

As mentioned in a previous post - the offense has basically fallen because of poor three point shooting and poor offensive rebounding.  Are those fixable?  Can we EXPECT Ray Allen to come back to his normal level - both in terms of percentage and volume?  Can we expect House to return to last year's level?  Pierce has been excellent from 3 - but he does not take a ton of them, certainly not enough to offset Allen's sharp decline in production.  Rasheed is not a great 3pt shooter historically, but he is not THIS BAD either.  Will that perk up?

Is this a permanent condition - I don't know ... but that is the problem. 

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2010, 04:10:51 PM »

Offline ducksawce

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What is strange about this current slump is....

That it is this happening against EVERY type of team.  Whether it's the Lakers, the Magic, the Hawks, the Mavericks, the Heat, the Blazers, the Hornets, the Pistons, and the Nets....no matter the record, the Celtics play the same against them.

The pattern remains the same...and the way we lose (or barely win) is within a very small margin.  The team performs brilliantly in first halves...and they NEVER get blown out.

But these second halves are deadly.

That is why I refuse to believe that this is a talent issue.  If it were, the Celtics would simply be outplayed the entire game against LA, Orlando, etc....against top competition.

It's not like players are tired after coming back from halftime.  They should be fresh, right?  It's not like they've forgotten how to play. 

This is mental.  Even more so because the veteran leaders can't get it done right now...but they THINK they can.  The second half strategy with this team changes ABRUPTLY...in favor of little ball movement, and Big 3 trying to start things up themselves.

Until KG can jump like he did in December, Paul score like he did in November, and Ray shoot like he did last May...

...then this team will be in dissaray.

Rondo must take the reigns and just DEMAND the ball ALL game.  He is the key to getting the Big 3 back into the flow.  If Rondo can learn to do this for entire games....and if the Big 3 can regain some of their capabilities, then I will be cautiously optimistic.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 04:20:30 PM by ducksawce »

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2010, 04:31:53 PM »

Offline sk7326

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What is strange about this current slump is....

That it is this happening against EVERY type of team.  Whether it's the Lakers, the Magic, the Hawks, the Mavericks, the Heat, the Blazers, the Hornets, the Pistons, and the Nets....no matter the record, the Celtics play the same against them.

The pattern remains the same...and the way we lose (or barely win) is within a very small margin.  The team performs brilliantly in first halves...and they NEVER get blown out.

But these second halves are deadly.

That is why I refuse to believe that this is a talent issue.  If it were, the Celtics would simply be outplayed the entire game against LA, Orlando, etc....against top competition.

It's not like players are tired after coming back from halftime.  They should be fresh, right?  It's not like they've forgotten how to play. 

This is mental.  Even more so because the veteran leaders can't get it done right now...but they THINK they can.  The second half strategy with this team changes ABRUPTLY...in favor of little ball movement, and Big 3 trying to start things up themselves.

Until KG can jump like he did in December, Paul score like he did in November, and Ray shoot like he did last May...

...then this team will be in dissaray.

Rondo must take the reigns and just DEMAND the ball ALL game.  He is the key to getting the Big 3 back into the flow.  If Rondo can learn to do this for entire games....and if the Big 3 can regain some of their capabilities, then I will be cautiously optimistic.

It's a lot of ifs ... I think despite how much we notice it as fans, we are still not fully appreciative at how much Ray's shooting problems - and the team's inability to shoot from distance in general -  have hurt this team's attack. 

Much of the team's stopped ball movement comes from potentially a lack of confidence in the team's ability to make outside shots consistently.  We have been able to live with being a high turnover team because we are a high assist team who makes the shots we DO take.  Right now that is not happening to nearly the degree necessary. 

The team either has to make open shots ... or they have to figure out other ways to increase their offensive efficiency:

Reduce turnovers while grabbing more misses - the Hawks and Grizzlies methods

Draw more fouls - the Nuggets method


Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2010, 04:41:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The real question is, if Paul and KG are healthier (December healthy, not 2008 healthy) and we have a cohesive lineup for a reasonable amount of time, will we go back to the way we were playing before the injuries hit?

This is the question that I have for the so-called "realists" among Celtic fans.  Through the first third of the season, the Celtics were 22 - 5 with the best score differential in the league. 

In the 23 games since then, Garnett has missed 11 outright and played most others visibly hobbled.  Pierce has missed 7 outright and played several others visibly slowed.  And several other rotation players have also missed time.  In that stretch the team has gone 10 - 13.

According to the "realists", the last 23 games are more reflective of this team than the first 27.  It is declared impossible that we can beat the Hawks or other good teams, and the team should be blown up.

So again, the question is: which team is more realistically who we are?  And if you think it's the most recent 23 games, is it because you think Pierce and KG can never be December-of-09 healthy again?  Or you just think it's realistic that the team suddenly forgot how to play, regardless of team health?

If you look at the 22-5 start, the team also played its softest stretch, and the #30 schedule in the league (from a points perspective).  The defense then was more or less the same as it is now.  We have slipped a little bit, but really we have been basically tied for #1 most of the season with a few other teams. 

The offense has gone in the toilet.  7 weeks ago, the team was still #4 in the league on offense, while since it has taken a swan dive to #14.  This has coincided with an increase in the level of opponents - a trip out West, finishing the series with the Hawks, a couple of losses to the Magic. 

As mentioned in a previous post - the offense has basically fallen because of poor three point shooting and poor offensive rebounding.  Are those fixable?  Can we EXPECT Ray Allen to come back to his normal level - both in terms of percentage and volume?  Can we expect House to return to last year's level?  Pierce has been excellent from 3 - but he does not take a ton of them, certainly not enough to offset Allen's sharp decline in production.  Rasheed is not a great 3pt shooter historically, but he is not THIS BAD either.  Will that perk up?

Is this a permanent condition - I don't know ... but that is the problem. 

  I don't know that it was really our softest stretch. I think that at least 1/2 of the first 28 games were against current playoff teams with games vs Atlanta, Phoenix, Orlando twice, San Antonio, Cleveland and Utah. Also, you were comparing our offense to the '08 offense. Our offensive rebounding is down ~1.5 a game since new years but our 3 point shooting is holding steady and we're down about 5 points a game. Our turnovers are up quite a bit over that timeframe, and a lot of that could be from a lack of a cohesive lineup.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2010, 05:10:10 PM »

Offline sk7326

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The real question is, if Paul and KG are healthier (December healthy, not 2008 healthy) and we have a cohesive lineup for a reasonable amount of time, will we go back to the way we were playing before the injuries hit?

This is the question that I have for the so-called "realists" among Celtic fans.  Through the first third of the season, the Celtics were 22 - 5 with the best score differential in the league. 

In the 23 games since then, Garnett has missed 11 outright and played most others visibly hobbled.  Pierce has missed 7 outright and played several others visibly slowed.  And several other rotation players have also missed time.  In that stretch the team has gone 10 - 13.

According to the "realists", the last 23 games are more reflective of this team than the first 27.  It is declared impossible that we can beat the Hawks or other good teams, and the team should be blown up.

So again, the question is: which team is more realistically who we are?  And if you think it's the most recent 23 games, is it because you think Pierce and KG can never be December-of-09 healthy again?  Or you just think it's realistic that the team suddenly forgot how to play, regardless of team health?

If you look at the 22-5 start, the team also played its softest stretch, and the #30 schedule in the league (from a points perspective).  The defense then was more or less the same as it is now.  We have slipped a little bit, but really we have been basically tied for #1 most of the season with a few other teams. 

The offense has gone in the toilet.  7 weeks ago, the team was still #4 in the league on offense, while since it has taken a swan dive to #14.  This has coincided with an increase in the level of opponents - a trip out West, finishing the series with the Hawks, a couple of losses to the Magic. 

As mentioned in a previous post - the offense has basically fallen because of poor three point shooting and poor offensive rebounding.  Are those fixable?  Can we EXPECT Ray Allen to come back to his normal level - both in terms of percentage and volume?  Can we expect House to return to last year's level?  Pierce has been excellent from 3 - but he does not take a ton of them, certainly not enough to offset Allen's sharp decline in production.  Rasheed is not a great 3pt shooter historically, but he is not THIS BAD either.  Will that perk up?

Is this a permanent condition - I don't know ... but that is the problem. 

  I don't know that it was really our softest stretch. I think that at least 1/2 of the first 28 games were against current playoff teams with games vs Atlanta, Phoenix, Orlando twice, Cleveland and Utah. Also, you were comparing our offense to the '08 offense. Our offensive rebounding is down ~1.5 a game since new years but our 3 point shooting is holding steady and we're down about 5 points a game. Our turnovers are up quite a bit over that timeframe, and a lot of that could be from a lack of a cohesive lineup.

We played some playoff teams - but the Jazz had not come around, the Hornets were in the process of quitting on Byron Scott.  The Cavaliers clearly had not hit their stride.  Good teams' SOS will always be hurt since they don't get to play themselves - so no matter.

Last year we were 39.7% as a TEAM from way downtown, this year 34.7%.  Same number of makes on nearly 2 fewer attempts ... also more specifically looking at Ray's production from 3, and Eddie's too, why not ... reveals the genesis of the problem:

Last year: 538 for 1355 ... Ray 199 for 486, Eddie 151 for 340

So Ray shot 40.9%, Eddie shot 44.4%, they combined for 61.0% of our attempts ... everyone else shot 188 for 529 = 35.5%, basically the league median

This year (50 games): 312 for 900 ... Ray 81 for 240, Eddie 60 for 161

So Ray 33.8%, Eddie 37.3%, combining for 44.6% of our attempts ... everyone else 171 for 499 = 34.3% (and that INCLUDES Pierce) below the league median

Ray is shooting poorly - but he is also shooting a lot LESS (from 6.2 attempts to 4.8 attempts a game) ... Eddie is shooting less, but 37.3% is above the league average at least ... but his attempts are down a bit (4.2 to 3.3)

Heck, let's add Paul's attempts to this - since he is shooting well ...

in 2009, Paul was 119 for 304 = 39.1% ... this year 78 for 174, 44.8%

So the 2009 summary:

Celtics: 538 for 1355 = 39.7%
Ray-Eddie-Paul: 469 for 1130 = 41.5%
Attempted 83.4% of team's total three point attempts

The 2010 summary

Celtics: 312 for 900 = 34.7%
Ray-Eddie-Paul: 219 for 575 = 38.1%
Attempted 63.9% of the teams total three point attempts

The team's three point shooting has dipped because of Ray and Eddie as pointed out earlier.  However, look at the 19.5% DROP in the percentage of three pointers taken by the "right guys".  Ray and Eddie have not been as good as a year ago - Ray in particular has lost confidence in the shot ... the upshot is that the wrong guys are shooting too many three pointers - Ray is not giving himself a chance to shoot himself out of it ... and historically shooting ability is a skill that does not grow old. 

If the team started getting their best three point shooters to shoot more of the team's three pointers ... perhaps the problem solves itself.  I worry about the permanence of Ray's problems - because it has not felt like a glitch.  But the track record DOES indicate that he needs to not be gun shy - and while it feels like he's a good teammate by not taking shots he has not made so far - he might benefit by shooting more. 

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2010, 05:22:44 PM »

Offline 2short

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I think 1 arguement for 3 pt shooting % is our lack of inside out game and ball movement.  ANY good team (think bird c's, jordan bulls etc) have great ball movement, ball is swung to open man who gets good look.  Our offense is stagnant with guys holding ball and trying to go 1 on 1.  We have missed kg's passing, teams aren't doubling down on him and 'sheed's lack of going to the post.  (where he is so good)
So anyone shooting 3's is coming off picks with a man chasing or is jacking it up 1on1.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2010, 07:01:04 PM »

Offline vinnie

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One stat I think is important is the team's record against teams with a better than .500 winning percentage. After last night it stands at 11-12.

Also on the injury front, I know it has only been short team, but how do you explain the Lakers demolishing quality teams without Kobe or Bynum? In addition, the Lakers played wihtout Gasol, one of the top power forwards in the league, for 17 games, yet the team has the second best record in the NBA. How are the Lakers able to deal with all of these chemistry problems, especially with a key player like Gasol missing more than a third of the season?

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »

Offline BballTim

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One stat I think is important is the team's record against teams with a better than .500 winning percentage. After last night it stands at 11-12.

Also on the injury front, I know it has only been short team, but how do you explain the Lakers demolishing quality teams without Kobe or Bynum? In addition, the Lakers played wihtout Gasol, one of the top power forwards in the league, for 17 games, yet the team has the second best record in the NBA. How are the Lakers able to deal with all of these chemistry problems, especially with a key player like Gasol missing more than a third of the season?


  Again, though, it's a tale of two teams for us. We've lost a bunch of games to good teams lately and we're near .500 against them so we must have been doing pretty good before the injuries struck. And the Lakers happen to have a starter-quality sub that plays Gasol's position. Think that might have anything to do with their playing well when he was out? They're 11-6 without Pau. That's close to our record last year when KG was out because we had Powe and Davis playing well.

Re: Despite the struggles, who is still confident? A much needed All-Star break
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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see the whole celtic's team needs to come to my spot and i'll get a case of old english and get sum ribs and carne asada and polo asade and ill invite sum female friends from around the way and we all chill...that will help them get they mind right..no talkin bout basketball and stuff like that..jus gettin our drank and grub on...

works for me~