Hollinger's Overrated / Underrated list

[LarBrd33]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he has overrated is in fact underrated.  Although I'm not sure anyone that knows the game overrates joe dumars.  Those that don't do though.

How this dimwit keeps a job is beyond me.  It must be all the PER zombies.

I too am impressed at all of Monta Ellis' 6 for 22 games.  Jolly good.

Do you peruse box scores for your opinions?

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

This is dumb on so many levels.  They are both white though.

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

[LarBrd33]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

This is dumb on so many levels.  They are both white though.

poor man's Luke Ridnour

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

This is dumb on so many levels.  They are both white though.

poor man's Luke Ridnour

That's what I rate your posts. 

Both would be upgrade from Ray Allen sadly. lol  Even your awful posts would be upgrade.

[Fafnir]

No personal attacks

[LarBrd33]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

This is dumb on so many levels.  They are both white though.

poor man's Luke Ridnour

That's what I rate your posts. 

Both would be upgrade from Ray Allen sadly. lol  Even your awful posts would be upgrade.

Hinrich wouldn't be an upgrade over Ray Allen...at all.  The guy is a bum.

I made the Ridnour comment as a joke, but really they aren't that far off:


Ridnour career stats per 36 min: 13 points, 6.7 assists, 3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 2.3 turnovers 42% shooting
Hinrich career stats per 36 min:  14 points, 6.3 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 1.3 steals, 2.4 turnovers  41% shooting.
Dickau career stats per 36 min:  14 points, 5.9 assists, 3.2 rebounds, 1.3 steals, 2.5 turnovers 40% shooting

lol ... Sure that doesn't give you a very accurate portrayal, but I think I'd rather have that bum Luke Ridnour at 6.5 expiring over that bum Kirk Hinrich making 30 million over the next 3 years.  PASS

I promise you that if we ended up trading for Hinrich, it would go down as one of those disaster Raef Lafrentz, Brian Scalabrine, Dan Dickau, Wally Szerabgiack moves where we traded for some white bum and everyone privately wondered if Danny Ainge was secretly racist.  Bad idea all around.

[sk7326]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

OK.  So Ellis' defensive ability (still obviously a black box quantitatively - a known unknown in most of sports science granted) is good enough to offset his very very low efficiency.

The funny thing about the "you just rely on stats" non-sequitur is that somehow looking at how players perform is some sort of wild, Galileo putting the sun at the center of the solar system level of shocking.  It's reminiscent of the baseball people who brush off criticizing old ballplayers with poor OBPs ... I pity those ballplayers and managers who did not understand that outs are bad.

Ellis is quick, flashy and can explode - and indeed did against Boston.  He also shoots a pretty low percentage for someone who doesn't make a lot of 3s.  There really is not a ton of doubt that Rajon Rondo could do similar work if he had free reign of an offense of that caliber and didn't have to try very hard defensively.  

The other guys are valued - as you value them.  But how often do you see their names listed as like Top 20 caliber players.  In 2006, Shawn Marion was legitimately one of the 10 best players in basketball, but Steve Nash won a fairly indefensible MVP.  But of course he is not a primary ballhandler so it is easy to miss.

Would you really pay Kirk Hinrich's salary and contract for what is a rather fungible skillset?  Just being a SG with good defensive ability is not a high value skill - when that skillset can be bought at WalMart prices by comparison.  The Denver Nuggets last year started Dahntay Jones for offering those virtues and then smartly let the Pacers sign him for 4 years because it's easy enough to find Aaron Affalo's lying around.  

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows that knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

Hinrich is a bum.  Rich man's Dan Dickau

This is dumb on so many levels.  They are both white though.

poor man's Luke Ridnour

That's what I rate your posts. 

Both would be upgrade from Ray Allen sadly. lol  Even your awful posts would be upgrade.

Hinrich wouldn't be an upgrade over Ray Allen...at all.  The guy is a bum.

I made the Ridnour comment as a joke, but really they aren't that far off:


Ridnour career stats per 36 min: 13 points, 6.7 assists, 3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 2.3 turnovers 42% shooting
Hinrich career stats per 36 min:  14 points, 6.3 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 1.3 steals, 2.4 turnovers  41% shooting.
Dickau career stats per 36 min:  14 points, 5.9 assists, 3.2 rebounds, 1.3 steals, 2.5 turnovers 40% shooting

lol ... Sure that doesn't give you a very accurate portrayal, but I think I'd rather have that bum Luke Ridnour at 6.5 expiring over that bum Kirk Hinrich making 30 million over the next 3 years.  PASS

I promise you that if we ended up trading for Hinrich, it would go down as one of those disaster Raef Lafrentz, Brian Scalabrine, Dan Dickau, Wally Szerabgiack moves where we traded for some white bum and everyone privately wondered if Danny Ainge was secretly racist.  Bad idea all around.

I'm not even sure what Ridnour has to do with this conversation because you brought him up to make some racist stupid point which didn't make any sense.  Keep your racists comments away from my posts please.  In regards to Kirk he would be a backup PG who can defend wings like he did Paul in the playoffs fairly well last year.  Does your and Hollies (Hollinger) per 36 track defense? 

[Roy Hobbs]

As Fafnir said, personal attacks are not allowed.  Cease with the "dumb", "stupid", "awful", "racist" comments now.  Additionally, there's no need to bring up a player's race in discussing his value to a team, or otherwise.

[Brickowski]

Hinrich is valuable because he can play the point and he's a good defender.  His shooting percentage is deceptive because he takes alot of shots with the clock winding down.

Hollinger should watch more actual basketball.

[footey]

I'm surprised any of the big 3 or Rasheed did not make the over-rated list.

[Birdbrain]

Makes sense that every person he was overrated is in fact underrated.

Monta Ellis is scary overrated ... an unconscious gunner playing the point on the most selfish team in the league ... given his ghastly shooting percentage, he's a poor man Allen Iverson at his peak without the force of personality.  

AK-47 and Josh Smith have been underrated the way 2006 Shawn Marion was.  Fans clamor for team guys who do all the "little things", do not need the ball to be effective and defend the heck out of their position.  Sure enough we get those players and fans and conference coaches totally forget to honor them, let alone think of them as truly elite.

Hinrich is a decent defender who cannot shoot ... Ime Udoka does that for 1/13 of the price

You are so wrong about Ellis and I won't waste my time to explain it to you.  Stick with FG% and Per. 

Josh Smith and AK-47 (stupid name) aren't underrated either.  Everyone who knows the game that doesn't use per as the reasoning knows they are good.

Hinrich might be slightly overpaid but, a much better player than you believe if you think he's comparable to Udoka who know one wants. 

OK.  So Ellis' defensive ability (still obviously a black box quantitatively - a known unknown in most of sports science granted) is good enough to offset his very very low efficiency.

The funny thing about the "you just rely on stats" non-sequitur is that somehow looking at how players perform is some sort of wild, Galileo putting the sun at the center of the solar system level of shocking.  It's reminiscent of the baseball people who brush off criticizing old ballplayers with poor OBPs ... I pity those ballplayers and managers who did not understand that outs are bad.

Ellis is quick, flashy and can explode - and indeed did against Boston.  He also shoots a pretty low percentage for someone who doesn't make a lot of 3s.  There really is not a ton of doubt that Rajon Rondo could do similar work if he had free reign of an offense of that caliber and didn't have to try very hard defensively.  

The other guys are valued - as you value them.  But how often do you see their names listed as like Top 20 caliber players.  In 2006, Shawn Marion was legitimately one of the 10 best players in basketball, but Steve Nash won a fairly indefensible MVP.  But of course he is not a primary ballhandler so it is easy to miss.

Would you really pay Kirk Hinrich's salary and contract for what is a rather fungible skillset?  Just being a SG with good defensive ability is not a high value skill - when that skillset can be bought at WalMart prices by comparison.  The Denver Nuggets last year started Dahntay Jones for offering those virtues and then smartly let the Pacers sign him for 4 years because it's easy enough to find Aaron Affalo's lying around.  

Well let's see I completely disagree with your efficiency point so add that to the fact that stump would play better defense than Ray at this point and I'll stick with my opinion.  Those that use stats and don't take into account the team they playing on are missing a lot (as nice as I can say it), fyi.  What I know is that he score and score a lot and it nothing to do with his game against Boston and everything to do with the countless other games I've witnessed.  He would be God send.

Kirk would playing backup PG (something we need)and SG from time to time and defense is so much better than any wing we have that it would offset the large salary.  The reason I commented on Kirk is because people keep posting that he's available so If I heard that others were available I may agree that they should be brought in before Kirk.  But just throwing out names of player you think are the same mold as Kirk for a cheaper price doesn't seem to be realistic.

[ssspence]

Hinrich is valuable because he can play the point and he's a good defender.  His shooting percentage is deceptive because he takes alot of shots with the clock winding down.

Hollinger should watch more actual basketball.

Well then maybe he shouldn't take those shots since he rarely makes them, and the result seems to inevitably involve a fastbreak for the opposing team.

Hollinger watches a lot of basketball -- ESPN pays him to do it -- and while his theories can be far-fetched at times, I have no problem with him using a pretty wide variety of statistical analysis to in fact back up his perspectives.

It's certainly more interesting than being told that players or teams are good or bad because the writer knows a lot about basketball and that's what he or she thinks.

In my opinion there are dozens of NBA writers out there who should learn this lesson and get off their lazy backsides to provide some legitimate perspective.