Stop the Ray bashing already!

[BballTim]

Now you're just trying to avoid the questions and twist what I said BBALL TIM. What I said was that Ray is getting bashed on here because he has old legs and isn't as good at staying in front of his man like he once was. (not that he was ever a defensive player of the year or anything in his prime) My comment was that Ray gives it 100% every game and does a fair job of it against quicker guards (often PG's like Miller) and we shouldn't be picking on the guy. Rondo on the other hand has the physical ability to stay in front of his man but instead chooses to play lazy defense gambling for steals. If anyone should get picked on it is him because he often breaks down the entire defense when he gambles and misses or turns his back on his man.

Of course Doc wants him cheating a bit in his lanes to disrupt. Just a bit though. That wasn't what I said Doc doesn't like. He can't like him refusing to fight through a pick, making a solid attempt to keep his man in front of him playing good "feet" defense, or turning his back on his guy leaving him wide open for shots. Rondo has so many great parts of his game that it is easy to overlook. If he would solve this one problem, which is about attitude and discipline, he would be up there in the discussion of very best PG's in the league vs. the next level tier of guys.

Key Point: When everyone else on the team brings the effort, intensity, and desire that Ray does each game we can then start picking on his deficiencies. 

  Thanks for clarifying. I'll try and better address your comments. I don't think that Rondo's the best defender he could be play in and play out but he's still 23 and he's shown considerable improvement. Doc may not be 100% thrilled with Rondo's play but he's been critical of it in the past and all I've heard about it this year has been praise. And Rondo is up there in the discussions about the best point guards in the league. Make no mistake, none of the other players in the conversation are ahead of Rondo because of their defense. Rondo's been putting up like 18/10/5 since Paul's knee injury. That stacks up pretty well.

  Key Point: Ray needs to get it done. Scal's effort, desire and intensity don't save him from criticism here.

[Cman]

I bet Doc will be the only one surprised when Ray is burned out come  playoff time.

TP, haha.
(excxept not so funny)

[snively]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

[Rondo_is_better]

BUT HE SUxKZZZZZZ!!@@#!@!!!1111@@!11111?

[Jon]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

[snively]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

I just think you're underestimating the defensive quality of a lot of the 2-guards out there.

Let me highlight some of the best:

Courtney Lee: excellent defender of 1s and smaller 2s.  His perimeter defense played a major part in Orlando's playoff run. 

Andre Iguodala: supremely versatile defender with great length, speed and instincts.  Capable of guarding the 1-3 spots and great on the boards to boot.

Kirk Hinrich: feisty, physical and capable.  Guarded Rondo, Ray and even Paul effectively in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza: the best defensive hands in the game, gets loose balls, good help defender, nice rebounder.

The difference between these defenders and many others on the list and Ray is pretty big.  Ray can't guard 1s or 3s.  He can't play that physical.  He can't pressure the ball very well.  He doesn't contribute on the boards.  He doesn't grab loose balls.  He doesn't get many deflections or steals.  He doesn't make great shot contests.

There are plenty of 2s that are an asset on the defensive end of the floor.  Ray is definitely not one of them.

[Neurotic Guy]

Ray Allen is the NBA Ladanion Tomlinson. Great one year, ok the next, then it goes downhill. Old age catches everyone, in every sport.

I think it's fair to bring up the age issue, however, it is hardly unprecedented for 35 year olds to compete effectively with their younger, less experienced, colleagues.  By any account, Ray is a young 35 -- eats healthy, keeps his mind and body in top condition.  There is reason to believe that his legs and lungs aren't any more worn out than a typical 28-30 year old. 

It's true that everyone breaks down eventually, but there is not a set age at which that happens.  Greg Oden may have less left in his tank than Ray Allen.

If I hadn't seen Ray go into shooting funks in each of the previous years, I'd be more concerned.  I think he remains a VERY valuable member of this team and I think he can be a solid NBA contributor for a while to come.

[Jon]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

I just think you're underestimating the defensive quality of a lot of the 2-guards out there.

Let me highlight some of the best:

Courtney Lee: excellent defender of 1s and smaller 2s.  His perimeter defense played a major part in Orlando's playoff run. 

Andre Iguodala: supremely versatile defender with great length, speed and instincts.  Capable of guarding the 1-3 spots and great on the boards to boot.

Kirk Hinrich: feisty, physical and capable.  Guarded Rondo, Ray and even Paul effectively in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza: the best defensive hands in the game, gets loose balls, good help defender, nice rebounder.

The difference between these defenders and many others on the list and Ray is pretty big.  Ray can't guard 1s or 3s.  He can't play that physical.  He can't pressure the ball very well.  He doesn't contribute on the boards.  He doesn't grab loose balls.  He doesn't get many deflections or steals.  He doesn't make great shot contests.

There are plenty of 2s that are an asset on the defensive end of the floor.  Ray is definitely not one of them.

Those guys likely are better defenders, but they're certainly inferior players overall, which is my much larger point.  My point is that you likely can't get a 2-guard who is a better defender than Ray and a better overall player. 

As I've said in other threads, I think Ray looks a step slower this year because the way the team is leaning on him.  Besides Perk he's the only player to play in every game this season (and he's playing nearly 10 mpg more than Perk).  More importantly, in those minutes, because of the absence of Daniels, he's being asked to handle the ball more.  Once the team is healthy, even if his minutes stay where they are, I expect his legs to get fresher as he won't be asked to do as much. 

As for rebounds, they're always a loaded stat.  I mean why isn't he getting boards, because he can't, or because Doc runs plays that have him standing 25 feet from the basket?  More importantly, as Doc said recently, he'd rather have people getting back on defense than crashing the offensive boards.  As great as Rondo can be in that area, he also gets burned at times when he doesn't get the board. 

Finally, I think part of Ray's "defensive woes" may have a lot with him holding back right now.  With all the minutes and all the offensive burdens he's had, can we really blame him for taking plays off on the defensive end in what's largely a meaningless regular season?  How often has Shaq taken large portions of the season lightly to turn it up in the playoffs?  Given the fact that Celtic management has largely disregarded wins this season with their babying of every injured Celtic, I wouldn't be surprised if Ray's simply saving his legs for the playoffs. 

[BballTim]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

I just think you're underestimating the defensive quality of a lot of the 2-guards out there.

Let me highlight some of the best:

Courtney Lee: excellent defender of 1s and smaller 2s.  His perimeter defense played a major part in Orlando's playoff run. 

Andre Iguodala: supremely versatile defender with great length, speed and instincts.  Capable of guarding the 1-3 spots and great on the boards to boot.

Kirk Hinrich: feisty, physical and capable.  Guarded Rondo, Ray and even Paul effectively in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza: the best defensive hands in the game, gets loose balls, good help defender, nice rebounder.

The difference between these defenders and many others on the list and Ray is pretty big.  Ray can't guard 1s or 3s.  He can't play that physical.  He can't pressure the ball very well.  He doesn't contribute on the boards.  He doesn't grab loose balls.  He doesn't get many deflections or steals.  He doesn't make great shot contests.

There are plenty of 2s that are an asset on the defensive end of the floor.  Ray is definitely not one of them.

  I thought the reason Hinrich was guarding Pierce was because he was doing a poor job of staying with Rondo.

[snively]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

I just think you're underestimating the defensive quality of a lot of the 2-guards out there.

Let me highlight some of the best:

Courtney Lee: excellent defender of 1s and smaller 2s.  His perimeter defense played a major part in Orlando's playoff run. 

Andre Iguodala: supremely versatile defender with great length, speed and instincts.  Capable of guarding the 1-3 spots and great on the boards to boot.

Kirk Hinrich: feisty, physical and capable.  Guarded Rondo, Ray and even Paul effectively in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza: the best defensive hands in the game, gets loose balls, good help defender, nice rebounder.

The difference between these defenders and many others on the list and Ray is pretty big.  Ray can't guard 1s or 3s.  He can't play that physical.  He can't pressure the ball very well.  He doesn't contribute on the boards.  He doesn't grab loose balls.  He doesn't get many deflections or steals.  He doesn't make great shot contests.

There are plenty of 2s that are an asset on the defensive end of the floor.  Ray is definitely not one of them.

Those guys likely are better defenders, but they're certainly inferior players overall, which is my much larger point.  My point is that you likely can't get a 2-guard who is a better defender than Ray and a better overall player. 

As I've said in other threads, I think Ray looks a step slower this year because the way the team is leaning on him.  Besides Perk he's the only player to play in every game this season (and he's playing nearly 10 mpg more than Perk).  More importantly, in those minutes, because of the absence of Daniels, he's being asked to handle the ball more.  Once the team is healthy, even if his minutes stay where they are, I expect his legs to get fresher as he won't be asked to do as much. 

As for rebounds, they're always a loaded stat.  I mean why isn't he getting boards, because he can't, or because Doc runs plays that have him standing 25 feet from the basket?  More importantly, as Doc said recently, he'd rather have people getting back on defense than crashing the offensive boards.  As great as Rondo can be in that area, he also gets burned at times when he doesn't get the board. 

Finally, I think part of Ray's "defensive woes" may have a lot with him holding back right now.  With all the minutes and all the offensive burdens he's had, can we really blame him for taking plays off on the defensive end in what's largely a meaningless regular season?  How often has Shaq taken large portions of the season lightly to turn it up in the playoffs?  Given the fact that Celtic management has largely disregarded wins this season with their babying of every injured Celtic, I wouldn't be surprised if Ray's simply saving his legs for the playoffs. 

In the recent past, Ray's offense did cover for his D, but this year's 45% shooting and 35% 3pt shooting isn't cutting it.  I'd say he's breaking even right now as a good, not great, offensive player with bad but not horrible defense.  You're right that this could be him taking it easy for the regular season, but age and mileage seem to me the more likely causal factors.  

That doesn't mean Courtney Lee, Kirk Hinrich or Trevor Ariza are better players (though Iguodala certainly would be), but the gap is closing.  

As for rebounds, I think it's safe to say that the stats don't lie.  Ray's rebound rate has been declining for several years.  

[snively]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to. 

1.  Starting 2-guards I'd consider to be better defenders than Ray Allen:

Courtney Lee, Demar DeRozan (barely), Andre Iguodala, Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons, Carlos Delfino, Dahntay Jones/Brandon Rush, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter (barely), Stephen Jackson, Caron Butler, Arron Aflalo, Brandon Roy, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sefalosha, Corey Brewer, Kobe Bryant, Jason Richardson, Jason Kidd (guards shooting guards for much of the time because they play Terry and Barea so much), Bogans/Ginobli, Trevor Ariza and Devin Brown.  Even if you take off DeRozan and Carter, Ray's in the bottom third of the league.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be on par with Ray defensively:

OJ Mayo, Kevin Martin, Anthony Parker.

Starting 2s I'd consider to be worse than Ray defensively:

Eric & Ben Gordon, Curry with Golden St., Danillo Gallinari (or is he a 3?)

2.  I think our athleticism disadvantage has hurt us in a big way on the boards.  Ray's become one of the poorer rebounding guards in the league, definitely the weakest rebounding link in what is otherwise an average rebounding starting line-up.  

I think you gave a list of two-guards who are more athletic than Ray at this point, but I'd say most of them are inferior defenders.  Jason Richardson can jump through the roof and has the ability to go stride for stride and inch for inch with Kobe, but does he?  If he did, would Phoenix (and other teams he's been on) consistently underachieve? 

Sure, you can make the argument that some of those guys would become better defenders with KG, but that was only part of the reason PP and RA changed their defensive mentalities.  It also had a lot to do with them realizing that time was running out.  I'm not sure some younger shooting guards are at that point yet.

Plus, how many of those guys have a clue about team defense?  Gaudy stats and athleticism are nice on paper, but remember, Big Al gets block and rebounds, but really is a subpar defender. 

I just think you're underestimating the defensive quality of a lot of the 2-guards out there.

Let me highlight some of the best:

Courtney Lee: excellent defender of 1s and smaller 2s.  His perimeter defense played a major part in Orlando's playoff run. 

Andre Iguodala: supremely versatile defender with great length, speed and instincts.  Capable of guarding the 1-3 spots and great on the boards to boot.

Kirk Hinrich: feisty, physical and capable.  Guarded Rondo, Ray and even Paul effectively in the playoffs.

Trevor Ariza: the best defensive hands in the game, gets loose balls, good help defender, nice rebounder.

The difference between these defenders and many others on the list and Ray is pretty big.  Ray can't guard 1s or 3s.  He can't play that physical.  He can't pressure the ball very well.  He doesn't contribute on the boards.  He doesn't grab loose balls.  He doesn't get many deflections or steals.  He doesn't make great shot contests.

There are plenty of 2s that are an asset on the defensive end of the floor.  Ray is definitely not one of them.

  I thought the reason Hinrich was guarding Pierce was because he was doing a poor job of staying with Rondo.

No one on Chicago could stay with Rondo, but I thought Hinrich was much better against him than Rose. 

And the reason he ended up on Pierce was that the Bulls had no back-up wingmen.  They were running a 7-man rotation with only Hinrich and Miller off the bench and Salmons as the only other guy who could guard Paul.

[papa shuttlesworth]

I'd say he's breaking even right now as a good, not great, offensive player with bad but not horrible defense.  

Breaking even with a team leading +/-?  Basketball (offense and defense) is more about the points you score and the points the guy on the other team who plays the same position as you scores.  It is about how your role enables the team to win. 

If Ray, Pierce or KG wanted to average the numbers they did on losing teams, they could.  But the Celtics would be much worse.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Ray has had to carry quite a load this year and in the playoffs last year. Of all those guys listed, Ray is still the better shooter. Doc should slow his minutes down, but doc cannot see things like that. If doc had his way, he would play 6 guys forever. He did that before KG and Ray came here. It was Paul ball. No other players got anything, not much development, not much vision. That is doc's way. He is a great last minute play maker though. Ray is still a great shooter, and all great shooters have a slump. His guts pulled it out for us against the blazers, 2 great plays to end it (with TA)....It would be a good idea for doc to set more screens for Ray, but THEN HAVE SOMEONE roll to the hoop for some rebounding, like BBD, or sheldon....leon made it look easy, because he wanted it...!

[Jon]

All in all, this team has had very little continuity this season, the last thing they need to do is make a big splash.  It'd be one thing if this team was sputtering and everyone was healthy, but that's certainly not the case.  We have some very clear reasons why things aren't working that are likely to right themselves. 

Ray scored 50 in a playoff game 9 months ago.  He hasn't aged that much.  He's in a funk being asked to do a lot.  Let's see what happens in a month when KG is fully integrated and Marquis Daniels is back.