If Ray's not scoring, he's not helping

[yoursweatersux]

At the risk of stating the obvious, I just wanted to point out that for Ray to even justify a roster spot, he needs to start scoring more... a lot more.

We all know that Ray isn't out there for his defense. There are literally dozens of younger, more athletic players who can be had for < $5 mil who play better defense than Ray. So for Ray to justify being on the court, he needs to be outscoring his opponent, or at least be scoring very efficiently. At the moment, Ray is doing neither.

What's frustrating is that Ray is being paid $20 million to play like like somebody worth $5 million. I seriously would've taken Martell Webster, who is being paid $4 million this year, over Ray Allen in that Portland game.

So if we're not gonna trade him, then can we please at least start running more plays for him,so he gets better looks and catches some fire every once in a while? If he can't still do that, then we'd be better off with somebody that's probably $10 million cheaper.

[Jon]

This is entirely untrue.  Yes, Ray is best known for his shot and scoring ability; however, he provides a lot more.  One thing you're severely overlooking is Ray's role as primary ball-handler when Rondo's out of the game. While it may not seem like much, the reason Ray averages 1 more minute per game than Pierce is because the C's can survive without Pierce's scoring, but they can't survive without Ray's handle when Rondo's out of the game. 

Furthermore, even when Ray doesn't score, the fact that he could scares teams enough to keep them honest. 

[Who]

I think Martell Webster has surpassed Ray Allen too ... assuming these recent (last 4-6 weeks) defensive performances are the norm from here on in.

[Who]

If he can't still do that, then we'd be better off with somebody that's probably $10 million cheaper.

On the bright side of things ... Ray Allen will be $10 million cheaper, or close to it, next season.

[yoursweatersux]

This is entirely untrue.  Yes, Ray is best known for his shot and scoring ability; however, he provides a lot more.  One thing you're severely overlooking is Ray's role as primary ball-handler when Rondo's out of the game. While it may not seem like much, the reason Ray averages 1 more minute per game than Pierce is because the C's can survive without Pierce's scoring, but they can't survive without Ray's handle when Rondo's out of the game. 

Furthermore, even when Ray doesn't score, the fact that he could scares teams enough to keep them honest. 

The fact that Ray can dribble up the court is the reason why he's worth $15 million more than Martell Webster? That's some insane rationale you've got there.

This is the NBA. 95% of the guards on the court are more than capable of merely dribbling the ball up the court, especially considering most teams don't even apply full court pressure.

I guarantee you Martell Webster could perform the same task. I would stake my life on it

[Roy Hobbs]

Of course Ray is massively overpaid at this point.  So are Paul Pierce and KG.  However, he's still a valuable player, for his scoring, his shooting, the spacing he provides the offense, his efficiency, and his lack of turnovers.  He's also a respectable rebounder, ball-handler, passer, and yes, defender.

Ray is still the team leader in +/-, and is second in +/- per minute.  If he was as poor of a contributor as some think he was, I don't think the team would be as successful with him on the court as it is.

Also, there can't be an argument that Webster is performing like the average $4 million player, right?  He's underpaid, of course.

[Jon]

Of course Ray is massively overpaid at this point.  So are Paul Pierce and KG.  However, he's still a valuable player, for his scoring, his shooting, the spacing he provides the offense, his efficiency, and his lack of turnovers.  He's also a respectable rebounder, ball-handler, passer, and yes, defender.

Ray is still the team leader in +/-, and is second in +/- per minute.  If he was as poor of a contributor as some think he was, I don't think the team would be as successful with him on the court as it is.

I agree with this.  It's not a coincidence or solely to do with PP's health that Ray plays more minutes than him.  Yeah, I'd rather have the ball in Pierce's hands with 5 seconds left on the clock; however, Ray does a lot of small things well.  Small things that Martell Webster doesn't do.

Furthermore, I'll disagree with with Roy'd assessment that Ray, PP, and KG are all overpaid, or at least dramatically so.  Yeah, the fact that they make more than Wade, James, and Howard is off, but besides just a handful of others in the NBA, exactly who should be getting paid more than our superstars? 

Given the fact that losers like Amare Stoudemire, Jermaine O'Neal, Michael Redd, Andre Kirelnko, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Gilbert Arenas, and Zach Randolph all make in the ballpark of what those three really shows that what the C's are paying our Big Three (to actually win games) is not all that much. 

[More Banners]

If he can't still do that, then we'd be better off with somebody that's probably $10 million cheaper.

On the bright side of things ... Ray Allen will be $10 million cheaper, or close to it, next season.

True.  I'd love to keep Ray around next year for that kind of money...in a bench role, since I think we would be a better team if we started a defensive wing next to Paul.

But when I think of possible trade scenarios that involve Ray's expiring deal, I get a little bit giddy.  As much as I love Ray, I think Danny has the nuts to pull the trigger if the opportunity is there to make us better.

As the OP stated, there are many other possibilities that might help us more than Ray, provided we don't get sentimental for the Ray of a couple of years ago.  I think his defense is suspect enough that the matchup would be exploited in a 7-game series.  I don't like him starting at all against:

Wade, Joe Johnson, Stephen Jackson, or Vince Carter,

any of whom we might meet in the playoffs.  If we fall to the #3 seed, we might meet Wade or SJax in the first round...then Vince or Johnson in the second...assuming Cleveland in the Finals.  

Not that we should panic or anything, but we shouldn't get too sentimental, either.  In the end, it will be about matchups, which I think matters more than regular season numbers, percentages, or any assessment of a player's skills outside of the context of matchups against playoff-caliber competition.  Stats often lie.

[Chief]

Ray reminds me of Mitch Richmond. The Washington Wizards Richmond, could still put up 17 ppg but could not defend anyone.
His last year in the league, he was traded to the Lakers, but could barely get off their bench.

[BballTim]

Of course Ray is massively overpaid at this point.  So are Paul Pierce and KG.

  I think if you look at the top paid players in the league, Paul isn't massively overpaid and KG isn't either. Ray's definitely slowing down but I wouldn't try and make any judgments about the team until the starters have had a few more games to get back into sync.

[Drucci]

Ray is in a shooting slump, he has been there a few times during his last two season too.

I agree that his defense has lost a step but he is not as bad as people claim he is on the defensive end of the court.

[wdleehi]

I have no problem trading Roy if it is a clear upgrade.


That said, that option really isn't available right now.  

[More Banners]

Ray is in a shooting slump, he has been there a few times during his last two season too.

I agree that his defense has lost a step but he is not as bad as people claim he is on the defensive end of the court.

How do you think he matches up against other starting SG's in the east?  On playoff teams?

[yoursweatersux]

I have no problem trading Roy if it is a clear upgrade.


That said, that option really isn't available right now.  

The point that I was sort of hinting at when I started this thread is that Ray is more upgradeable than people think.

I'd argue that nobody else in our starting 5 is really upgradeable. As far as Rondo, Paul, and KG are concerned, no team is going to be willing to trade a top 5 pg, sf, or pf. Perkins is unbelievable bang for the buck... we'd have to pay somebody else a lot more money than Perkins is currently making in order to upgrade at the center position.

Ray, however, is a different story. The "upgradeability" of a player all depends on their current performance. For instance, Shaq in his prime could not be upgraded... there wasn't a better center in the league. But now there are a dozen centers that could be considered an upgrade over Shaq. Same thing with Ray... as he drops off, the number of possible upgrades multiplies. What I'm really saying is, Ray isn't in a slump. He's just old, slow, can't score as easily or efficiently, and there are a few available players that could be considered an upgrade over him.

A lot of you think he's in a slump... well in case you haven't noticed, his "slumps" over the last 3 years have started to happen more often and for longer periods of time. You shouldn't be so surprised... shooting guards don't age well. My point is, we need to upgrade him NOW while some sucker GM's out there still think he's merely "slumping" and we can get a good player in return. We should consider dumping Ray before his value sinks even lower.

[Donoghus]

I have no problem trading Roy if it is a clear upgrade.


That said, that option really isn't available right now.  

The point that I was sort of hinting at when I started this thread is that Ray is more upgradeable than people think.

I'd argue that nobody else in our starting 5 is really upgradeable. As far as Rondo, Paul, and KG are concerned, no team is going to be willing to trade a top 5 pg, sf, or pf. Perkins is unbelievable bang for the buck... we'd have to pay somebody else a lot more money than Perkins is currently making in order to upgrade at the center position.

Ray, however, is a different story. The "upgradeability" of a player all depends on their current performance. For instance, Shaq in his prime could not be upgraded... there wasn't a better center in the league. But now there are a dozen centers that could be considered an upgrade over Shaq. Same thing with Ray... as he drops off, the number of possible upgrades multiplies. What I'm really saying is, Ray isn't in a slump. He's just old, slow, can't score as easily or efficiently, and there are a few available players that could be considered an upgrade over him.

A lot of you think he's in a slump... well in case you haven't noticed, his "slumps" over the last 3 years have started to happen more often and for longer periods of time. You shouldn't be so surprised... shooting guards don't age well. My point is, we need to upgrade him NOW while some sucker GM's out there still think he's merely "slumping" and we can get a good player in return. We should consider dumping Ray before his value sinks even lower.

Right now, though, who out there that you consider an upgrade is realistically available for the Celtics to get?  When it really comes down to things, its pretty tough to come up with someone that the Celtics can acquire that is considered an upgrade without seriously altering the makeup of this team.