Does anyone else notice how often TA has the highest +/- in a game?

[KungPoweChicken]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

[Roy Hobbs]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

[Neurotic Guy]

I remain among the few (perhaps the sole survivor) who still thinks TA can add something of value to this roster.  He is an energy player off the bench -- something that Sheed and Daniels really aren't by their nature. House can be an energy guy, but his impact is deflated if he is not hitting his shots.  Baby is certainly an energy guy, but obviously the team hasn't had the benefit of his services as yet. Shelden does bring grit and emotion, so I'll say he does add to the energy equation.  But, TA can be a pure energy guy -- hustle, steals, aggressive defense and an occasional strong finish (preferably not after the play is over).

The big rap on TA is his turnover tendencies and his IQ lapses on defense.  If Tony can display some better self-control and thus play more 'within himself'(sorry for the cliche), he could be of value in stints off the bench.  He should not be handling the ball and he must be smart on the defensive end.  When he does these things, he can be effective and a spark.

And BTW, I am not convinced that his seeming lack of BBIQ is directly commensurate with a lack of general IQ.  He seems like an impulsive guy -- and impulsive people often (though certainly not always) gain some self-control in mid-late 20's when brain development is complete and they can better use their experieces to guide their future actions.  Tony may be a 'late bloomer' in this regard -- I hope so

I wrote the above just before TA rejoined the team this year when he was getting constantly bashed on this board. People (including me) are ready to pounce on the guy for his mistakes and even though many here have given him credit for playing well, positive comments are often followed by ifs or buts pertaining to doubts folks still have for his ability to be consistent, play smart, hang onto the ball or remain healthy.  

All doubts may be fair, but I'll state here without hesitation that he has brought energy every night, he's contributed on both sides of the ball and I'm glad he's on the team.    

[BballTim]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

  Funny, if I were to complain about Ray's turnovers I'd be talking about his passing turnovers, which seem to be egregious and ill-timed.

  aside: notice how 82games is falling by the wayside this year? They only update the site once a week or so and they haven't done a single one of their "features" like advanced shooting, player pairs, 5 man units or any of the like.

[BballTim]

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

  Bitter at all?

[Steve Weinman]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

  Funny, if I were to complain about Ray's turnovers I'd be talking about his passing turnovers, which seem to be egregious and ill-timed.

  aside: notice how 82games is falling by the wayside this year? They only update the site once a week or so and they haven't done a single one of their "features" like advanced shooting, player pairs, 5 man units or any of the like.

While it doesn't necessarily replace everything 82games does, I'd highly recommend Hoopdata if you're looking to add another useful and updated advanced stats site to your bookmarks.  The guys over there do a terrific job and offer a wealth of intriguing data with some features as well.

-sw

[Fafnir]

The only time I worry about Ray Allen with the ball in his hands is on the fast break.

He's not bad at it, but he messes up more than I'd like.

[KungPoweChicken]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

If that doesn't take into account passing, then its reliability cannot be taken very seriously. Ray Allen is one of the worst Celtics, of course, outside of Kendrick Perkins, at making telegraphed and ill advised passes.

And just to say it now: This is not a post saying that "Tony Allen is a better decision maker than Ray Allen." (I already feel Celticsblog world misconstruing my words). This post, much like the last one, is simply a post trying to understand how someone could not see how careless Ray Allen often is with the basketball. He is one of the worst at making UNFORCED passing errors, on the fast break and in the half court.

[Gomesfan]

The only time I worry about Ray Allen with the ball in his hands is on the fast break.

He's not bad at it, but he messes up more than I'd like.

He doesn't mess up as much as the other Allen, Tony that is, I think I have a better handle than "salmon and Mashed potatahs" I mean dude gets all hairy wi th dribble sometime, kinda nervous like my wife in a parking garage!!!lol

[Tai]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

If that doesn't take into account passing, then its reliability cannot be taken very seriously. Ray Allen is one of the worst Celtics, of course, outside of Kendrick Perkins, at making telegraphed and ill advised passes.

And just to say it now: This is not a post saying that "Tony Allen is a better decision maker than Ray Allen." (I already feel Celticsblog world misconstruing my words). This post, much like the last one, is simply a post trying to understand how someone could not see how careless Ray Allen often is with the basketball. He is one of the worst at making UNFORCED passing errors, on the fast break and in the half court.

I'd need the stats that without a doubt offset what Roy said and proves your point that Ray sucks at making passes. You say the stats aren't reliable cause they don't account for passing...so are we talking assist ratio?

[Roy Hobbs]

One phenomenon that I'm sure others notice is how much Tony's turnovers stand out.  Not the volume of the turnovers, but for some reason Tony's turnovers stick in my brain.  The other night Tony made a horrible pass for a turnover that I was still thinking about after the game.  Then I looked at the boxscore and Tony had only one turnover that game.  Meanwhile, I noticed that Ray had five turnovers and I could hardly remember any of them.  

Hardly remember them? Seriously? Ray Allen is the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins.


You don't remember that, if it wasn't for Pierce's great pass and Rondo's miracle shot against Miami, Ray Allen blew the game! If that kind of play doesn't get you thinking after the game, then nothing will.

But, after all, Ray Allen is the "good guy." So it's okay when he makes terrible mistakes. But, when Tony Allen makes them, he's just the thug who is not a "NBA caliber player."


That's just about everyone's rationale on this board. So don't feel antagonized. It's not meant directly towards you.

Through 82games.com's most recent update, Ray has a grand total of 21 ball-handling turnovers, along with 9 offensive fouls.  He has a "hands rating" of 16.0.

Tony Allen has 10 ball-handling turnovers and 4 offensive fouls, and a hands rating of 9.0.  In other words, Tony has roughly 50% as many ball-handling / dribbling turnovers as Ray, in 25% of the minutes.

Also, of course, it's not like Ray never dribbles, or only shoots from outside.  23% of his shots come from inside, and even on his jumpers, 24% are unassisted.  That means he's getting to the basket and creating his own shot about 1/4 of the time.  That further suggests, of course, that he has the ball in his hands.  Yet, he's tenth on the team in turnovers per minute.

All of that seems odd, for "the worst Celtic with the ball in his hands, outside of Kendrick Perkins."

If that doesn't take into account passing, then its reliability cannot be taken very seriously. Ray Allen is one of the worst Celtics, of course, outside of Kendrick Perkins, at making telegraphed and ill advised passes.

And just to say it now: This is not a post saying that "Tony Allen is a better decision maker than Ray Allen." (I already feel Celticsblog world misconstruing my words). This post, much like the last one, is simply a post trying to understand how someone could not see how careless Ray Allen often is with the basketball. He is one of the worst at making UNFORCED passing errors, on the fast break and in the half court.

They do take into account passing; you just seemed focused on ball-handling.

Ray:  31 bad passes

Tony: 13 bad passes

Again, Ray has played over 4 times the minutes that Tony has, and yet only has just over twice as many bad passes.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS5.HTM#pstats

http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS4.HTM#pstats

[TradeProposalDude]

Tony Allen is a natural at the sport of basketball. He thinks basketball. You can tell because he stinks when he overthinks things. The one thing about Tony that works to his benefit is that he is a high adrenaline player. It's not in his character to "stop and think" what to do. When he is committed to finding the rim, he gets there, as he is driven by his first impluse to "go." This impulsiveness has also worked against him many a time. But it's when he mixes his impulsiveness with making the game too hard (for himself) that problems start to arise.

Until Daniels comes back, Tony Allen belongs in the rotation. I'm curious to see how the minutes distribution will shape out once Daniels returns, however.

[jr_3421]

For a guy who plays three position over the course of a game, yeah Tony is definitely the biggest surprise this season. This is the best time to trade him. His value can't get any higher. If you ship TA along with House, Celtics can get one complete player.

I agree 100% with this post.

Things I don't like about TA.
1. The ridiculous circumstances in which he turns the ball over. That to me is always the sign of low basketball IQ
2. How he flings his body into the defender sideways when driving to the hoop. If he doesn't get the contact (which he doesn't a lot of the time) he is nowhere near making the basket.
3. His shooting form. Nuff said
4. He is injury prone.

To be fair to Tony here are the things I like about TA:
1. Defense. When focused he is our best wing defender in every sense of the word. Strength anticipation quickness he has it all
2. His aggressiveness. Many times we've seen talented wing players who just don't show the fire tony does. K. Brown, G-Money, JR all have the skill set but don't have the confidence to use it like Tony does. He rebounds  and takes it hard to the hoop (although like i said above i would like him to finish better).
3. His post up game. A new element that has proved to be very effective recently.
4. Personality. I find him hilarious whether its on the bench celebrating or in the game verbally abusing himself

In conclusion TA is a player who belongs in this league, just not with us. The Celtics are a team that thrives on offensive efficiency and superb passing. Since Tony is playing well, we should be able to get someone decent for him.