Author Topic: I want Jesus here till he retires!  (Read 6579 times)

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Re: I want Jesus here till he retires!
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2010, 10:17:33 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Yeah, Ray has been pretty bad defensively this year.  Play Tony more.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: I want Jesus here till he retires!
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2010, 10:23:11 AM »

Offline RAcker

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Yeah, Ray has been pretty bad defensively this year.  Play Tony more.
Ray shot has been off lately...even from the FT line.

When his shot is not falling, he HAS to play defense and last night was just horrible.  Hopefully, Ray will get it together on that end of the floor because TA is just the opposite.  TA has NEVER been able to shoot but is a solid man to man and help defender.

Re: I want Jesus here till he retires!
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2010, 11:13:56 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I disagree that Ray is a liability on defense, at least consistently so.  He struggles against Joe Johnson, that much is clear.  However, opposing SGs have a 12.7 PER against the Celtics when Ray is on the court, and have an eFG% of .428.  Last season, SGs had a 12.3 PER, and the year before, a 12.4 PER.  These are remarkably consistent and excellent numbers.

There are problems with defensive statistics, but you generally don't see consistency like the above for three straight years unless somebody is a pretty good defender.  As mentioned, there's the occasional game where Ray will struggle keeping up with an elite player, but overall he's pretty good on the defensive end.  If he was as bad as some suggest, there would be a clear track record of SGs consistently exploding for big nights on a regular basis, rather than only on rare occasions.

Or the method of that statistic is consistently not accounting for Ray's man driving right past ray and compromising the defense.  While I typically agree with most things you write Roy, I have to disagree on Ray's defense.

For starters, I think it'd be nice if Ray retired a Celtic.  However, someone making clutch shots at the end of the game is completely mitigated by the fact that he gives up so many easy buckets on the other end.  My theory is if Ray had not played lead-foot defense all game, the score wouldn't be close.  Ray Allen is glaringly the weakest link on defense amongst the starters. 

Watching him play this year is like watching Wally Szerbiak trying to play D, and it's very frustrating.  Ray isn't as bad as Wally eventually became, but he's getting there.  The irony of this is pretty funny since the night of the trade for Ray Allen my friend and I commented "I'm not sure if I like that trade.  We lost the #5 pick and got Ray Allen, which doesn't necessarily make this team a contender, but we did get rid of Wally.  Wait a second, we don't have to watch Wally on defense anymore!  I actually like this trade!"

I want the Celtics of the near and distant future to continue to be a classy organization that wins games and competes for a championship.  Keeping Ray on during the waning years of his career will only ensure that the Celtics remain classy, but I think it'd ultimately hinder the team's ability to compete.

If Ray is giving up so many easy buckets on a consistent basis, why isn't it reflecting in the defensive statistics of either himself individually, or the team as a whole?

Ray Allen leads the team in +/- by a wide margin.  The defense is 3.6 points worse per 100 possessions when he is off the floor.  The Celtics rank third in defensive efficiency, and 5th in eFG% allowed, despite KG missing several games.

If Ray is such a weak link, why isn't it showing up anywhere?  Why, in fact, do the statistics suggest the exact opposite?



You're assuming that his 3.6 points per 100 possessions is a direct reflect on him.  Playing alongside other players who are noted for great defense (Rondo, Perkins, KG, Rasheed, and even Pierce) is probably the single largest reason that his defensive liability is masked, or that the numbers on the court appear good.  I'm not saying that people drive by him and score.  The typical scenario is that the player drives past Ray and is picked up by Perkins etc, and either results in an easier bucket for another player or increases the foul rate of the Celtic big-men.  I would wager that if you replaced Ray, and Ray alone, with someone who could guard someone without consistently requiring interior defense, then the Celtics defense as a whole would be statistically better.  Ray does play with the bench, but the primary amount of his minutes are spent playing alongside superb defenders and in a very good defensive scheme.  Thus, I don't think +/- numbers can reflect it.

But if Ray is continually, on a regular basis, giving up easy scoring opportunities to the other team, wouldn't that be reflected somewhere?  It's not being reflected in Ray's individual defensive statistics, it's not being reflected in his +/- (the best on the team, better than Pierce, Perk, Rondo, KG, etc.), and it's not being reflected in the team defensive statistics.

People make it seem like opposing shooting guards going off for 30+ points is the norm, when it clearly isn't.  Ray's defense has been just fine this year.  There have been lapses, but overall, he's been fine.

Also, his shooting hasn't been bad since November.  In December, he shot 39.5% from three, and in January so far, he's at 44.0% from three (and 48.4% overall).

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: I want Jesus here till he retires!
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2010, 11:53:18 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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Roy, I can't speak for Ray's opposing player PER because I'm not entirely sure how much weight to put on that.  However, I have two points:  You can't adequately put stock in the team statistics and draw a conclusion to Ray's defense.  Secondly, from what I've seen on hundreds/thousands of plays over the past year or so, the Celtics defense would be better as a team if you had a younger player replace Ray who was an average defender or better.  For 20mil a year, and potentially 8-10 next year, I think Ray Allen is and would be overpaid.  This team is founded around great defense and it's my belief that replacing Ray Allen in the future would improve the net effect of the team defense. 

Re: I want Jesus here till he retires!
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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I don't care what anyone says, Ray Allen is clutch. Period. All of this talk about his expiring contract, trade him...whatever. Ray may have his off nights, but he is STILL smooth as butter and is always there when we need him. The way he takes care of his body, he can definitely play 3 more years easily. Fact is, he wants to resign with the Celts for less money. I say do it and not even think twice. This may not be the popular opinion but I'm sure many experts will agree.

Agreed on all fronts!
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland