Red Sox sign Adrian Beltre

[winsomme]

pitchers don't fear any part of your order and just get people out.

when you get that feared part of the order, everybody else starts seeing better pitches.

The whole feared hitter thing is kinda overrated, Youkilis had a 961 OPS last year, you think pitchers dont fear that? They have a deep lnieup that is not great, but very good IMO.

 The lineup is equal with last year i think, and the pitching and defense got a huge upgrade. You also have to take into account that we hurt one of the two main rivals in the Angels, the Yankees are the only i think is better, but the Sox can definately beat them in a series wit the pitching they have.

well, I guess I will have to simply disagree....Youk is not  a feared hitter on his own. teams don't pitch around him.

but put him before an A-Gon in the postseason and he will start seeing a lot better pitches.

So you don't think teams plan differently when Youk is coming up in the lineup? .961 OPS, a .305 average and 27 homers...yea who would fear that...

no I don't think opposing pitchers pitch around Youk...not in the way that they do for the top-notch hitters in the league.

[Rondo2287]

Luckily they are building a team that will score some runs and prevent alot of runs.  A 1-0 game counts the same as a 27-0 game. 

[winsomme]

we were told going into this postseason that the "depth" of our lineup was good enough to win the WS....

but the pitching IMO is enough better in the postseason that you need to have hitters that pitchers dread facing...

i think back to that Tampa 2008 series when you always knew that Upton, Pena, and Longoria were just around the corner....guys like Aybar and Crawford saw such better pitches because of them.

[nickagneta]

Well if Ortiz doesn't take the first two months of the season off and gives this team 6 months of monthly production similar to what he gave this team from June through September, we can have our feared hitter back in the lineup. .270/42 HR/120 RBI/.370/.560/.930 is what six months of consistent production from Ortiz translates too and I happen to think he can do it.

I have faith that Papi and Pedroia are going to have big years this year and I expect Beckett to be Cy Young great considering it is a contract year. I really like what the Sox have done this off season. They are going to be a different style team from those that won in 2004 and 2007 but they are still going to be a 95-100 win team.

[winsomme]

Well if Ortiz doesn't take the first two months of the season off and gives this team 6 months of monthly production similar to what he gave this team from June through September, we can have our feared hitter back in the lineup. .270/42 HR/120 RBI/.370/.560/.930 is what six months of consistent production from Ortiz translates too and I happen to think he can do it.

I have faith that Papi and Pedroia are going to have big years this year and I expect Beckett to be Cy Young great considering it is a contract year. I really like what the Sox have done this off season. They are going to be a different style team from those that won in 2004 and 2007 but they are still going to be a 95-100 win team.

Pedroia is the perfect example of a guy that benefits hugely from the big boppers...

and as much as I love Papi, he needs to be one of the guys benefiting from the middle of the lineup guys as opposed to being one. I mean, why would him playing like he did at the end of the season make him more feared....the point was that he went into the postseason hitting, but showed that he's not a guy to carry a team in the postseason.....

remember, we lost our top RBI guy from last season....we have replaced him by committee, but I would hope that anything "by committee" would send chill down the spine of any Red Sox fan given our history with the whole "by committee" strategy.

[winsomme]

just to boil down my concerns about this deal.

my fear is that many of you are right about what this deal will do for the Sox in the regular season. we will win 100 games and seem primed for the postseason.

we won't have any statistical indicators showing a weakness and thus we won't see any A-Gon type deadline deal.

but the reality will be that we have a team built for the regular season, but exposable in the postseason - when alas it is too late to do anything about it.

it seems like the lesson being learned from last year is that our defense wasn't good enough.

I'm not sure if Theo et al really believe that that was the problem with our team last year or if that is simply the cheaper thing to fix (and by cheaper I don't just mean salary, I'm also including the cost in prospects to fill a big bat need).

Theo has said that his job is to put together a team that wins at least 95 games every year and makes the postseason - the rest is up to the coaches and the players. With the moves they have made, they probably have done that.

the problem IMO is that that is a flawed strategy...building a team that wins 95 and makes the postseason gets you a team that wins 95 and makes the postseason.....

IMO to get another WS team, we need that big bat...and I'm just afraid that this move is an indicator that the front office really has no significant desire to go and get that.

[Chris]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

[winsomme]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but Chris, what is the incentive going to be to go after a Mauer or an A-Gon....

I just don't see Theo et al prioritizing a big middle of the lineup hitter. I honestly don't think they believe we need it.

the problem with this deal isn't really the money, but the willingness to spend the money to go in this direction (ie away from a potent lineup)

[Chris]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but Chris, what is the incentive going to be to go after a Mauer or an A-Gon....

I just don't see Theo et al prioritizing a big middle of the lineup hitter. I honestly don't think they believe we need it.

the problem with this deal isn't really the money, but the willingness to spend the money to go in this direction (ie away from a potent lineup)

Well, I think the evidence points to the Sox highly prizing an elite middle of the lineup hitter like Mauer or AGon.  While they may not be able to pull it off, I think they will do everything they can to bring in a guy like that.

[bucknersrevenge]

just to boil down my concerns about this deal.

my fear is that many of you are right about what this deal will do for the Sox in the regular season. we will win 100 games and seem primed for the postseason.

we won't have any statistical indicators showing a weakness and thus we won't see any A-Gon type deadline deal.

but the reality will be that we have a team built for the regular season, but exposable in the postseason - when alas it is too late to do anything about it.

it seems like the lesson being learned from last year is that our defense wasn't good enough.

I'm not sure if Theo et al really believe that that was the problem with our team last year or if that is simply the cheaper thing to fix (and by cheaper I don't just mean salary, I'm also including the cost in prospects to fill a big bat need).

Theo has said that his job is to put together a team that wins at least 95 games every year and makes the postseason - the rest is up to the coaches and the players. With the moves they have made, they probably have done that.

the problem IMO is that that is a flawed strategy...building a team that wins 95 and makes the postseason gets you a team that wins 95 and makes the postseason.....

IMO to get another WS team, we need that big bat...and I'm just afraid that this move is an indicator that the front office really has no significant desire to go and get that.

It's a great point you bring up here because I myself have been wondering just how bad it was. Well I did a little research and I found that last year, we were 3rd to last in the majors in defensive efficiency(pct of BIP converted into outs). We were DEAD LAST in all of baseball in  total chances. We were also DEAD LAST in the majors in double plays turned. The left side of our defense featured a guy with no hip, a fielding disaster area in Julio Lugo, and a mediocre fielder in Nick Green who had to play over his head just to get to that level.  Oh and in the OF we had Bay and Ells.

This is a team that last year somehow managed to win a wild card despite giving up extra out after extra out after extra out. Any batted ball to the left side of our infield was bound to have something bad happen. Guaranteed. It's amazing we even won the wild card when you think about it. But the reason we did is because of our pitching. We compensated for our inability to not convert batted ball into outs by simply not letting the other team do it. The Sox were 2nd in the AL ranks in K/9 as a staff just behind the Yankees. That's how we did it.

Clearly Theo is focusing on these numbers. We replace the disaster that was the left side of the field with a GG 3B in Beltre, a dramatically better SS in Scutaro and moving Ells to LF with the better defensive CF in Cameron and we make our pitching staff that much better. Now if they allow balls to be put in play there is a good chance someone is gonna get to it. Better pitching staff overall takes pressure off the lineup to mash which we're not gonna be able to do. So upon further review maybe this was a better pickup than some of us realize.

[Tr1boy]

Mixed feeling about the signing. He is not your typical efficient player and strikes out vs walking ratio at 2 and a half to 1. So not a typical high on base player the redsox like. He is basically a replacement of Jason Bay on the offensive end and that is seriously not the type of player we needed to go anywhere for next season.

Our lineup as it stands looks like

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Ortiz
Youkilis
Martinez
Beltre
Drew
Scutaro
Cameron

A real decent lineup but i would trade everyone bottom of Youk for a chance at  manny ramirez, agonzalez, Pujols type of guy. Matsui would have been a better signing than cameron and beltre together.

[bucknersrevenge]

Mixed feeling about the signing. He is not your typical efficient player and strikes out vs walking ratio at 2 and a half to 1. So not a typical high on base player the redsox like. He is basically a replacement of Jason Bay on the offensive end and that is seriously not the type of player we needed to go anywhere for next season.

Our lineup as it stands looks like

Ellsbury
Pedroia
Ortiz
Youkilis
Martinez
Beltre
Drew
Scutaro
Cameron

A real decent lineup but i would trade everyone bottom of Youk for a chance at  manny ramirez, agonzalez, Pujols type of guy. Matsui would have been a better signing than cameron and beltre together.

Unless you're talking about Kaz Matsui to play SS I'm not sure what you're talking about. And even Kaz at short is a little ridiculous. Hideki Matsui at this point in his career is STRICTLY a DH. It's not even a question. He has less range in the OF than Jason Bay for godssake. And in case you hadn't noticed, we already have a full-time DH here.

[winsomme]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but Chris, what is the incentive going to be to go after a Mauer or an A-Gon....

I just don't see Theo et al prioritizing a big middle of the lineup hitter. I honestly don't think they believe we need it.

the problem with this deal isn't really the money, but the willingness to spend the money to go in this direction (ie away from a potent lineup)

Well, I think the evidence points to the Sox highly prizing an elite middle of the lineup hitter like Mauer or AGon.  While they may not be able to pull it off, I think they will do everything they can to bring in a guy like that.

I don't know....I think the evidence is that they are now on their third attempt to replace Manny...and so far they have chosen to go the Manny-lite and Manny-liter routes.

first was Bay (who put up solid numbers but just was not feared in a way that it rippled down the rest of the lineup) then we added VMart (who again is a nice hitter, but when catching really is not the kind of presence to carry lineup) and now after moving away from Bay (and I guess Holliday) we have added Beltre and Cameron...

what exactly is the evidence of the Sox highly prizing an elite bat?

[bucknersrevenge]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but Chris, what is the incentive going to be to go after a Mauer or an A-Gon....

I just don't see Theo et al prioritizing a big middle of the lineup hitter. I honestly don't think they believe we need it.

the problem with this deal isn't really the money, but the willingness to spend the money to go in this direction (ie away from a potent lineup)

Well, I think the evidence points to the Sox highly prizing an elite middle of the lineup hitter like Mauer or AGon.  While they may not be able to pull it off, I think they will do everything they can to bring in a guy like that.

I don't know....I think the evidence is that they are now on their third attempt to replace Manny...and so far they have chosen to go the Manny-lite and Manny-liter routes.

first was Bay (who put up solid numbers but just was not feared in a way that it rippled down the rest of the lineup) then we added VMart (who again is a nice hitter, but when catching really is not the kind of presence to carry lineup) and now after moving away from Bay (and I guess Holliday) we have added Beltre and Cameron...

what exactly is the evidence of the Sox highly prizing an elite bat?

I don't think he does either. I think he values the Yankees late 90's model. The '98 team that was so dominant was 4th in the AL in HRs that year but not 1 player even reached 30 the entire year. They were 2nd in the AL in BA but only 4 regulars even hit .300. They did however manage to lead the AL in RS/game and they also led the AL in defensive efficiency. Lineup balance, pitching and defense. That's what Theo is after. A big bat is just a luxury item to him.

EDIT: Another thing that Yankees team did was rank 2nd in stolen bases for the year in the AL. Not a topic brought up very often here but with these 3 new acquisitions we just added a lot of speed to our lineup. Cameron(avg 22 steals a year over 13 seasons. Only had 7 last year but I think that was more a team dynamic than a major indicator of slippage), Scutaro(14 steals last year), and Beltre(13 steals last year) all can run the bases well. Add that to Ellsbury and Pedroia and you now have 5 guys you can put in motion at any time. Expect to see a ton more hit n run next year. Moving infielders, opening holes, going from 1st to 3rd on a single, etc. This team will probably operate more like a National League team. This team will score runs. They're just gonna have to do it differently. Actually be an athletic team out there.

[winsomme]

I am not a huge Beltre fan, but this is a GREAT deal.  To get him for one year is huge.  He now has a year to prove he can play, and more importantly hit, in Boston. 

This also leaves the door open for them to go after Gonzalez during the season (Beltre on a one year deal could end up being a nice part of a three-way trade), or go after Mauer next season, with less money on the books.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but Chris, what is the incentive going to be to go after a Mauer or an A-Gon....

I just don't see Theo et al prioritizing a big middle of the lineup hitter. I honestly don't think they believe we need it.

the problem with this deal isn't really the money, but the willingness to spend the money to go in this direction (ie away from a potent lineup)

Well, I think the evidence points to the Sox highly prizing an elite middle of the lineup hitter like Mauer or AGon.  While they may not be able to pull it off, I think they will do everything they can to bring in a guy like that.

I don't know....I think the evidence is that they are now on their third attempt to replace Manny...and so far they have chosen to go the Manny-lite and Manny-liter routes.

first was Bay (who put up solid numbers but just was not feared in a way that it rippled down the rest of the lineup) then we added VMart (who again is a nice hitter, but when catching really is not the kind of presence to carry lineup) and now after moving away from Bay (and I guess Holliday) we have added Beltre and Cameron...

what exactly is the evidence of the Sox highly prizing an elite bat?

I don't think he does either. I think he values the Yankees late 90's model. The '98 team that was so dominant was 4th in the AL in HRs that year but not 1 player even reached 30 the entire year. They were 2nd in the AL in BA but only 4 regulars even hit .300. They did however manage to lead the AL in RS/game and they also led the AL in defensive efficiency. Lineup balance, pitching and defense. That's what Theo is after. A big bat is just a luxury item to him.

that might  be what he's after, but that team had at least three guys you'd rather not pitch to in Jeter, O'Neill, and Bernie...plus the hugely clutch Brosius...

also, that team didn't need to get by this Yankees team that we have to face now...