Sorry, but I have to make this post...

[CelticG1]

tony still sucks imo.  i can give him his due, he has played well as of late, but there is no way in hell i want to sign him after this season.  i still think he is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I couldn't agree more.  I still feel incredibly confident that he is either going to slide back into his old habits, or get hurt.  One or the other.

The thing is, I think he is a much better player as a starter.  If he is a starter, he seems to focus much better.  The problem is, he is not good enough to be a starter in a championship team.  He has too many holes in his game, and makes too many mistakes.  So unless he can learn to be consistent, and play within his limitations, in anywhere from 5-25 minutes per game off the bench, depending on the situation, he is not what this team needs in the longterm.

But I will give him credit, he has stepped it up the last week or so, and is playing well when they need him most.  But I don't want him back next year, and would feel much more comfortable if they sold high on him this year.

It would be nice to sell high on him this year but I just don't know if it would definitely be a smart move. With Daniels out until February (not to mention his own history of injuries), Pierce with a somewhat vague injury, and Ray at the age and minutes he has been playing, maybe it will end up being best to keep TA through the whole year. I guess if he absolutely tore it up with the time he is given here and we could somehow package him into a great trade than that might be something to look into, however, at the moment I just see TA as insurance for 3 of our key players.

[scoop]

I remember how half of this site wanted to trade Baby because we had Shelden. And saying Shelden gives the team more than Baby ever did.  I wonder where those people are now?

Sleeping with the enemy. If it wasn't for his lack of height, Glen would be more valuable than Sheed.

No.  Rasheed is a significantly better defender for more reasons than just his height.  He is also one of, if not our best, defensive rebounder.  And Glen's lack in this department is not fully attributed to his height.  Rasheed also has better range.  I'm not saying I'm not happy to have Glen back for bench support, but you're taking his contributions against the Clippers much too far.  There's a big reason Rasheed got $6mil, which was considered at the time cheap for him, and Baby got much less... and it's not all about height.

I think Rasheed is a better post defender than Davis because he of the height and his superior smarts and experience. Anywhere 7ft away from the rim, Davis is a better defender than Wallace.

You really think Rasheed is one of the best, if not our best, defensive rebounder? He's better than Davis or Scalabrine, but Perkins, Garnett and Shelden Williams are all far better than him.

First, you just cited "height, smarts, and experience" which goes against the argument that their only difference is height.

Sure, but I wasn't the one making that argument nor I was trying to support that argument.

In fact, what else could a superior defender have besides length, experience, and knowledge?  

For starters, quickness and agility are very important - it was his combination of length, mobility and quickness that made Garnett the best defensive big man in the last 20 years, IMO.

If nothing else mattered besides length, experience and instinct Bill Russell would still be a top NBA defender.

Second, I completely disagree that 7' from the rim BBD is all of a sudden the superior defender.  Wallace gets in peoples faces b/c if they go to the rim he can block it.  He also has the length to bother jump shooters.

But he lacks the quickness to bother anyone on the perimeter or to show up and recover without forcing his teammates to dry out for too long in the pick'n'roll.

Third, Wallace can LEAD a defense.  In other words, he can coordinate it as plays unfold.  Davis only reacts to the set schemes he is told to follow, and honestly I've yet to be impressed by his ability to anticipate and rotate very quickly.

Sure, communication is probably the most important skill for a good defensive club. But that doesn't help Wallace to defend face-up/perimeter bigs or the ballscreen any better.

Last, Yes, Wallace is the better rebounder.  What makes you think that Shelden, KG, and Perk are all "far better"??  Go to 82games and you'll see that Wallace is the best rebounder (unless I am completely reading their stats wrong).  Granted on the 2nd unit he might have less rebounding competition.  However, I still believe in a starting roll he'd get the most.  In fact, go back to the game where KG was out and Wallace took his place.... Rasheed most definitely outrebounded Perkins.

Perkins grabs 27.4% of the available defensive rebounds. Garnett 23.7%. Williams 21%. Sheed 18.9%.

When Wallace is on the floor, the Celtics grab 67.4% of the rebounds in their board. When he's off the floor, they grab 70.8%.

What are the numbers you're reading?

[Neurotic Guy]

Regarding trades, can't we suffice it to say that if better value or better fit players emerge in a real trade option then we should make the trade?  But in the absence of an actual trade scenario (i.e., someone actually offering a certain player(s) for ours), I go nutty listening to who should/shouldn't be traded.  ANY trade depends completely on who/what you get in return and we really don't know how other GMs value their own players or ours.

My opinions:  
Shelden is insurance -- a nice player to have on the bench if you need him for foul trouble situation or injury and for spot minutes.
  
Baby brings a ton (literally and figuratively) to the table off the bench.  He can turn games around with energy and offensive skills in a way that Shelden really can't. Another thing that seperates Baby and Shelden is that Baby simply attracts more attention on the court.  You have to know where he is, and yet, he still gets his numbers.  That's an important intangible that makes him more valuable than Shelden -- and opens up opportunities for teammates.

TA is of value to this team as long as he doesn't try to do too much.  Yes, that's stating the obvious, but I think it may be starting to get in his head.  He has, on a couple of occasions, begun to reel out of control for a few possessions, and then has settled back -- as if to say "Oh yeah...I have to remember not to do that". If he can stay under control (always the big 'if' for Tony), then he brings great energy, good defense, and he seems to have the confidence back in his hops.  I believe that a 27 year old Tony might prove to be more in control than the younger version. Time will tell, but I believe it's very possible (frontal lobe brain development and all).

Sheed is the man.  OP is correct about his low-post presense and play -- gotta love his veratility, defensive capability and the depth at the 4-5 that he provides.  He is first off the bench in any scenario.

Add Quis back and the options are almost mind-boggling.  It does bode for trade possibilities, but not knowing what other GMs will part with (and for whom), the speculation game is too much for me.

    
 

[EJPLAYA]

Regarding trades, can't we suffice it to say that if better value or better fit players emerge in a real trade option then we should make the trade?  But in the absence of an actual trade scenario (i.e., someone actually offering a certain player(s) for ours), I go nutty listening to who should/shouldn't be traded.  ANY trade depends completely on who/what you get in return and we really don't know how other GMs value their own players or ours.

My opinions:  
Shelden is insurance -- a nice player to have on the bench if you need him for foul trouble situation or injury and for spot minutes.
  
Baby brings a ton (literally and figuratively) to the table off the bench.  He can turn games around with energy and offensive skills in a way that Shelden really can't. Another thing that seperates Baby and Shelden is that Baby simply attracts more attention on the court.  You have to know where he is, and yet, he still gets his numbers.  That's an important intangible that makes him more valuable than Shelden -- and opens up opportunities for teammates.

TA is of value to this team as long as he doesn't try to do too much.  Yes, that's stating the obvious, but I think it may be starting to get in his head.  He has, on a couple of occasions, begun to reel out of control for a few possessions, and then has settled back -- as if to say "Oh yeah...I have to remember not to do that". If he can stay under control (always the big 'if' for Tony), then he brings great energy, good defense, and he seems to have the confidence back in his hops.  I believe that a 27 year old Tony might prove to be more in control than the younger version. Time will tell, but I believe it's very possible (frontal lobe brain development and all).

Sheed is the man.  OP is correct about his low-post presense and play -- gotta love his veratility, defensive capability and the depth at the 4-5 that he provides.  He is first off the bench in any scenario.

Add Quis back and the options are almost mind-boggling.  It does bode for trade possibilities, but not knowing what other GMs will part with (and for whom), the speculation game is too much for me.

    
 

What drives me nutty is someone states that a certain player's value is "X" and leaves no room in there for it being just THEIR opinion. They state it as fact and that anyone who disagrees doesn't know what they are talking about. For example:

I would argue that Shelden is really the guy who has to be accounted for out on the floor due to the fact that he is a very very good rebounder and can finish around the basket. If his man leaves him he will dominate the boards and can easily out back a miss or finish off  a dish when someone else goes to the rim. BBD on the other hand isn't a good rebounder or finisher so his man can cheat a bit more. I know many want to make him out to be some great shooter due to one big game winner, but the guy really isn't any better shooter than Shelden from the outside. You see, my opinion is very different from yours and is backed by some legit arguments. It doesn't necessarily mean I am right and you are wrong. Could be somewhere in between.

With TA I agree with everything up to the point that at 27 he will "magically" get it.

There is nothing wrong with people throwing out trade proposals and people they think would/would not/should/should not be included. This whole board is a bunch of yapping and bar talk, and if they didn't throw those types of things out it'd get boring in a hurry.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Scoop, I see where you are looking now on 82games.  I must have been looking at the same category, but 2/3 the way down the page where it apparently falls under "clutch statistics".  Got it now.. that site can be confusing.

Great points, and I can agree with most, but I still think Rasheed is better at recovering on defense than Davis.

[dark_lord]

tony still sucks imo.  i can give him his due, he has played well as of late, but there is no way in hell i want to sign him after this season.  i still think he is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

u kinda hurt my feelins..

i donr care what others think..cuzz most are brand new..but

u are not a new fan and to forget what he has done here...wow bro

u have truly gone to the dark side..

and what exactly has he done here?

lemme think....
a.  2 blown knees
b.  countless bonehead plays
c.  getting in trouble with the law
d.  6 yrs in the league and he is the same player now as he
    was when he entered the league
e.  etc, etc, etc

oh wait, he played well over a two week stretch during a 19 game losing streak......thats what people always bring up about the guy. 

im all set with tony turnover.  i dont like a guy that when talking about his game, words like, "but", "if", "when" must be used when discussing positive attributes.

[snively]

Scoop, I see where you are looking now on 82games.  I must have been looking at the same category, but 2/3 the way down the page where it apparently falls under "clutch statistics".  Got it now.. that site can be confusing.

Great points, and I can agree with most, but I still think Rasheed is better at recovering on defense than Davis.

I don't get why we're comparing them: they aren't really competing for minutes.  Sheed has the 5 spot locked down.  We should be comparing Baby, Scal and Shelden. 

Given that Scal had already knocked Shelden out of the main rotation before Baby's return (due to Shelden's defensive shortcomings and non-existent offense), I look it as Scal vs. Baby for back-up 4 minutes (about 18 a game when we don't go small). 

I think Baby's a shoe-in for the victory.  He entrenched himself in the starting role, ahead of Scal and Powe (who were both hampered by injuries, but still) during KG's injury.  Though a poor rebounder, he's vastly superior to Scal in that regard.  While he can't hit 3s, he's much more capable offensively than Scal too.  He can actually score in the post, roll off picks and finish with or without contact.  The only place he needs to prove adequacy in is defending 4s, and I'm pretty sure he'll do that.

[ScoobyDoo]

Well, I didn't mean this to have an "I told you so" tone to it but I realised it might come off that way when I re-read it.

And yes, some agreed with me but alot really trashed the ideas that Rasheed could play in the post, and should do it more and that both TA and Baby would be welcome, young, energetic legs for this aging team.

I can't wait until we finally get a healthy team, full roster. I really hope that happens within the next two months.

I think we may start to see these guys crushing people.

The way it should be in a perfect world. Every game a blowout!   

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I agree that sheed does have plenty of post game, shooting so many threes is not what any team needs, how many did he miss the other night...? Do not give me overall stats on that, it is game by game, one can perk up their stats by being hot one night, but cold when needed. We have Ray and PP and Eddie for threes, sheed can hit sometimes when we need it, but it cannot be his mainstay (like Antoine Walker tried) TA is playing like he can, if some of you ever played this game, you would realize that now he is 100% healthy, and obviously wasn't last year...sometimes when you come off an injury other less obvious ones happen to you, and you keep pushing forward as best as you can, but it isn't 100%, he is now, judge him as you see him this year, that is how he was before his major knee problem, and please don't play scal, save him for halftime antics or give him the towel to wave...where is ML Carr to train scal....? Scal should be a great pick-up guy at your local gym...! With plenty of money left over from his 3 mill to buy gatorade!!! BBD needs to lose weight and get to dunking on those put-backs! If he can jump..?