Celtics end of bench in need of a face lift.

[ssspence]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Of course you keep Eddie. The guy can shoot you back into a game in a hurry. He fits an important, specific role on a championship team. It's guys with NO role you get rid of.

[nickagneta]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

[Jon]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

But are you willing to give up the games when House goes on a three-point shooting bonanzas and wins us games?  I agree he isn't perfect and looks bad out there at times, but I've always felt that those great games generally outweigh the bad ones. 

Furthermore, given that his playoff minutes look to be 10 mpg or less, I'm not all that worried. 

[nickagneta]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

But are you willing to give up the games when House goes on a three-point shooting bonanzas and wins us games?  I agree he isn't perfect and looks bad out there at times, but I've always felt that those great games generally outweigh the bad ones. 

Furthermore, given that his playoff minutes look to be 10 mpg or less, I'm not all that worried. 

Actually....no. No I wouldn't.

If I could make the bench better by moving all the other players I mentioned(Scal, Tony, Walker, Giddens, and Hudson) and keep Eddie I would. But if giving up Eddie was a deal breaker in getting someone noteworthy(just throwing out names here, not saying they are available) like Hinrich, Foye, Caron Butler, Garcia, or someone like that, then he has to go.

[BASS_THUMPER]

lol

you will not make this bench better by movin scal allen and walker....lol...


what ONE playa we would get?

[Roy Hobbs]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

His raw stats are down from his career highs last year, but as mentioned, his efficiency is the second best it's ever been.  He's playing well.  Also, in terms of raw stats, he's also taking less shots, mostly due to the presence of other competent bench players.

[BASS_THUMPER]

not taking away from scal and tony....

i see what they bring game to game not by yearly stats...worth more than the average eye...tangables ya say

[nickagneta]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

His raw stats are down from his career highs last year, but as mentioned, his efficiency is the second best it's ever been.  He's playing well.  Also, in terms of raw stats, he's also taking less shots, mostly due to the presence of other competent bench players.

And his PER, which was his 2nd best ever last year at slightly better than the league average(15.44) is down to a paltry 11.65, well below average for an NBA player. His shooting efficiency is the only thing keeping his PER up to that bad number as, again, across the board, all his other numbers are suffering badly.

He's a one trick pony who, if his shot disappears like it did for the last 2 months plus in the 2007-2008 season, is useless to this team.

I like Eddie. I really do and if we can upgrade the PG spot and/or the team without moving him, I'm all for it. But he's definitely playing worse than last year and he definitely should not be a deal breaker for the right move.

[bucknersrevenge]

I just don't remember Bill Walker ever falling under Giddens in the depth chart and people keep harping on this. The only thing that has put him under Giddens in the depth chart has been injury.

Danny made comments before Walker got hurt that he hadn't developed and that JR had passed him in his development as a player.

TP and THANK YOU. I knew I couldn't be the only person who remembered that. Anyone trying to make a big deal about Walker's place on this team(or JR's, or Lester's) is waisting their time.

[Jon]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

But are you willing to give up the games when House goes on a three-point shooting bonanzas and wins us games?  I agree he isn't perfect and looks bad out there at times, but I've always felt that those great games generally outweigh the bad ones. 

Furthermore, given that his playoff minutes look to be 10 mpg or less, I'm not all that worried. 

Actually....no. No I wouldn't.

If I could make the bench better by moving all the other players I mentioned(Scal, Tony, Walker, Giddens, and Hudson) and keep Eddie I would. But if giving up Eddie was a deal breaker in getting someone noteworthy(just throwing out names here, not saying they are available) like Hinrich, Foye, Caron Butler, Garcia, or someone like that, then he has to go.

I agree.  Eddie certainly wouldn't be a deal break for me. 

My issue is more about Eddie's playmaking skills.  Personally, I've never been a fan and I was pretty much in panic mode in 2007-2008 before Rondo proved himself.  However, at this point, given the limited minutes he's playing now, and the even more limited minutes he's likely to play in the playoffs, I'll take his crappy ball-handling if it means that he'll go off for 15-20 ever 10 games or so.  I think the bigger issue is that Doc has to trust Marquis more.  Too often when both of them are on the floor, Ray or Paul is handling the ball, which is taking the offense out of its rhythm. 

Secondly, I think House has to be our "backup PG" or not play.  Now of course, if Daniels is on the court, he won't really be the PG; however, if we get a real backup PG, that pretty much means the end of Eddie, because there aren't enough minutes at the backup 2/3 for both him and Daniels. 

Right now, unless we can truly get an upgrade at the backup PG spot that will be happy playing 15 mpg (so no Andre Miller), I'd rather just keep him. 

[bucknersrevenge]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

Well, to play Devil's advocate, the stats you are quoting regarding +/- are stats you yourself have discussed as being poorly reflective of a players performance because they rely so more upon how the players you are playing with are playing than how well you are playing. The points off and on the court are very much the same way.

Now looking at his raw per minute stats(or per 36 or 48), you will see that just about every category Eddie's stats are down(or worse) somewhere between 10%-20%. His FG% and 3PTFG% are both down from 44.5% to 40.4%. His points, rebounds, assists, and steals are all down and his turnovers and personal fouls are up. Again, all by a factor of 10-20%. per 82games.com most of his time he is playing a PG (he plays 25% of all the team's PG minutes and 7% of their SG minutes)where his PER is a dismal 9.2 and he has a -PER against.

A look at the larger stat picture reveals a player who is definitely playing worse than last year and as a PG is playing awful. It kinda confirms what I have seen with my eyes.

His raw stats are down from his career highs last year, but as mentioned, his efficiency is the second best it's ever been.  He's playing well.  Also, in terms of raw stats, he's also taking less shots, mostly due to the presence of other competent bench players.

And his PER, which was his 2nd best ever last year at slightly better than the league average(15.44) is down to a paltry 11.65, well below average for an NBA player. His shooting efficiency is the only thing keeping his PER up to that bad number as, again, across the board, all his other numbers are suffering badly.

He's a one trick pony who, if his shot disappears like it did for the last 2 months plus in the 2007-2008 season, is useless to this team.

I like Eddie. I really do and if we can upgrade the PG spot and/or the team without moving him, I'm all for it. But he's definitely playing worse than last year and he definitely should not be a deal breaker for the right move.

And the deal most often quoted around these parts lately centers around Nocioni. Which makes sense because as others have said here it's hard to envision many scenarios where people would be interested in our end of the bench dreck unless they were unloading an unfavorable contract on us. Nocioni's deal certain counts as that.

[Who]

I like the big man rotation (Sheed + Davis + Scal + Shelden). There's good quality, flexibility and depth in that rotation.

So a primary backup point guard + a secondary backup wing + 13-15th men insurance players or young talent additions.

Red - I don't agree that rotation offers enough flexibility and quality. There's flexibility and there's quality, but I'm not sure if they go along. I think it's missing a better version of Scal (nothing special, just Scal with much better rebounding ability). There's only one above average rebounder in that rotation and he's the 5th/6th big man (aggravated by the fact that all the others are sub-par rebounders). There's only one guy who's comfortable defending mobile, perimeter orienteded PFs and he's the 5th/6th big man. I'd be happy to replace any one of those players with someone who'd make the team more comfortable matching up small-ball line-ups (especially if Garnett keeps struggling to defend quicker players).

Green - I don't see Daniels sticking around for the non-Bird exception. We'll need to waste a fair part of the MLE if we want to retain him in the next off-season. That will make difficult to grab a quality backup guard plus a secondary wing backup in the FA market. Difficult to predict at this point.

I fully agree with the rest of the post.  

Big man rotation

I see that as more of a limitation of having Glen Davis as your second backup big man than an issue with Scalabrine.

It'll be extremely difficult to acquire a superior talent to Scal, that offers a similar type of skill-set to Scalabrine, who'll be happy coming to Boston as the sixth big in the rotation + signing for a minimum contract. I think Scal is about as good as you can expect to do for that role.

I think the way to get a better option at that spot is to move Glen Davis for an athletic perimeter orientated power forward. A rotation regular who you can spend a few million on. Someone who gives the Celtics better lineup flexibility on an everyday basis ... and not just situationally.

Marquis Daniels

I was ignoring Marquis' situation for the time-being ... I was only looking for spots that are holes + considering Daniels spot as ably filled. Of course, if Marquis does leave, which there's a good chance of, that hole immediately jumps to #1 or #2 on the Celtics list.

Resources

Trades, Draft, MLE ... which would need to split between a primary backup guard + a primary backup wing (hopefully Daniels). Do the Celtics have a first round pick this season? I think they do.

Secondary backup wing should be available for a minimum contract. As should the 13th-15th roster spots.

[Who]

Eddie House has been solid this season. He just hasn't been as good as he was last year and he's getting up in years (32 at end of season, 33 by next year's playoffs). It looks to me that we've seen the best that House has to offer and that decline is setting in ... and thus, that next offseason will be the right time to look for a new primary backup point guard.

For this season, I'm more than happy to have House as the primary backup guard. He's doing a solid job and I expect him to continue doing so.

[PosImpos]

lol

you will not make this bench better by movin scal allen and walker....lol...


what ONE playa we would get?

This man's got it right.

Waiver wire folks, that's really our only hope.

And we all saw last year how much of a crapshoot that is.

[bMunch]

Tony Allen - Tony hasn't played this year, but that is just one of his many problems. In his 5 year career Tony has played over 51 games in a season just twice and may not make that number for a 4th year in a six year career. Now add in the turnovers, the bad outside shooting, the bad fouls, the fouls on three point shooters, the bad defensive rotations, the dribbling with his head down, the line drive tosses of the ball towards the basket and the fact that he is not demonstrably better now than the day he was drafted, and it's easy to see why he needs to go. He should never have been resigned.

so what you're trying to say is that you really don't think tony's all that good?