Celtics end of bench in need of a face lift.

[Fafnir]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

Well after 2 plus year here we certainly know what he can do at the point and I'm pretty sure other teams do too. He's pretty much a short, catch and shoot, defensive liability of a PG that can't play the point.

Sure, but can we find someone better?

[Fafnir]

Next offseason, it'll be the right time to move on.

Assuming we can get a true point guard, sure.

But Eddie will still have plenty of value as a bench shooter, I don't want to spend money on him instead of another PG. But if its going to be him or a vet. minimum blah guy.....

[Who]

A list of 2010 free agent guards

Unrestricted Free Agents

Guards:  Raymond Felton, Chris Duhon, Rafer Alston, Steve Blake, Luke Ridnour, Roger Mason Jr, Nate Robinson, Flip Murray, Derek Fisher, Jannero Pargo, Eddie House, Anthony Carter, Carlos Arroyo, Allen Iverson, Anthony Johnson, Shaun Livingston, Lindsey Hunter, Javaris Crittenton, Jason Williams, Earl Watson, Luther Head, Royal Ivey, Travis Diener, Kevin Ollie, Acie Law, Chris Quinn, Jason Hart, Jamaal Tinsley, Quincy Douby, Bobby Brown, Marcus Williams, Speedy Claxton, Mike James
Restricted Free Agents

Restricted Free Agents

Guards: Kyle Lowry, Jordan Farmer, Randy Foye, Will Bynum, CJ Watson, Sergio Rodriguez, Patrick Mills

Player Options

Guards: TJ Ford, Shannon Brown, Sebastian Telfair, Willie Green (ETO), Roko Ukic

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

I just don't remember Bill Walker ever falling under Giddens in the depth chart and people keep harping on this. The only thing that has put him under Giddens in the depth chart has been injury.

Danny made comments before Walker got hurt that he hadn't developed and that JR had passed him in his development as a player.

You mean the comments designed to entice someone to take JR off our hands?  I'd take those comments with a grain of salt.  JR hasn't developed, is 24 years old, and is about 6 months away from being an ex-NBA player.  And he runs like he just hit puberty--all legs and arms.  He's never going to pan out and Danny's known that since October 2008 (which is about when he started shopping him).

Walker will be given an opportunity in the rotation once he regains his health and conditioning (probably January/February when the roster ballast has cleared), just like he was last season. He's still young, has a great attitude, and is a hard worker.  His 3 point stroke, and low post skills are things we could use off the bench.

I have to agree with wdleehi. Hudson hasn't shown much of anything. He dribbles into corners or into traps. He doesn't seem to be able to run the offense without over dribbling. His passing is, at best, average. He often is missing open men in the halfcourt which questions his court vision. And in limited time his shot selection hasn't been great or that successful.

On the court he has shown me nothing and at 26 years old he isn't some developing youngster. He either has it or he doesn't and he hasn't done one thing on the floor that shows me he has it.

Meh--let's not put too much stock in garbage time, guys.  Hudson is still 25 years old, came from a small school, and is learning a new position in the NBA.  Let's give him more than 6 weeks of NBA-garbage time before we throw him away.  After a stint in the D-League (coming soon) and some seasoning at the PG spot, he's gonna look much better.  Remember Rondo's words--this guy's going to be a player.  Les has long arms, great defensive anticipation, and he can score from anywhere, and create his shot when the shot clock goes down.  Players like that are rare...

***

As for this topic, replacing House with a real point guard is the best and most effective way of improving the efficiency of the 2nd unit.  House continues to needlessly handicap that unit with his one trick pony routine.

[ManUp]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a bench shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

I don't think he's doing anything differently from what he usually does. He's never been a pg and he's never been a good defender. The only real difference I see is that teams are attacking him off the dribble. I've always wondered why more teams never did this because he honestly might be the worse defender in the league.

It was the one season in Eddie House's whole career where he had an above average TS% ... and so far this season he has looked incapable of reproducing that form. I think it's a mistake to base expectations on one season which is so far removed from his normal contributions.

House's defense + his rebounding have also seen a slight dip in performance too. At 31, turns 32 in the playoffs, it looks like old age + decline are beginning to settle in. I think we've seen the best that Eddie House has to offer and that things will only get worse from here.

Next offseason, it'll be the right time to move on.

I don't think House has declined at all. If he would stop trying to run the point and let Quis and the other guys set him up his numbers would bump up a bit. I stand by my original statement concerning his D it's the same as it's always been. Players are just deciding to attack him this year. He's never had the speed to challenge anyone, but for some reason players have never really tested him.

[2short]

My quick thoughts.  Bill Walker is a good sf backup for us, limited minutes behind PP and marquis (and at times scal).  Giddens is not an nba player, I think the only reason doc was talking giddens/walker was to get someone (wallace) dumb enough to go after giddens.
Eddie as someone put if he isn't hitting his shot he's not much help.  He's 1 dimensional for sure but we he is hitting he helps our team sooo much.  I did put out there a trade idea of eddie and insert parts to get kirk heinrich as combo guard off bench.  Good bb iq bigger, can hit the j and plays d.
Scal is just the guy i want on the end of bench, he has proved he can give us minutes at 2 posistions and plays well within team game.  If his contract is used to get someone in trade great, if he's here I'm fine with him.
Tony Allen, the enigma; as far as a guy of his athletic level near the end of bench that is a lot better than many teams.  I don't think the c's can trade him so we are probably going to have him for sf minutes.  With the current team I can't see any minutes at sf for him.  He'll have to outplay daniels, scal and walker for those minutes.
Williams & Hudson are perfect for how many minutes we need them.  I have actually been very impressed with sheldon and would like to sign him to a nice cheap deal.  Give him the pt he should have and see how he looks NEXT year.  I think he's going to give davis a run for those pf minutes.

[Chris]

I just don't remember Bill Walker ever falling under Giddens in the depth chart and people keep harping on this. The only thing that has put him under Giddens in the depth chart has been injury.

Danny made comments before Walker got hurt that he hadn't developed and that JR had passed him in his development as a player.

I remember that too, and I thought it was interesting at the time.  Although I remember at the time thinking it sounded a lot more like "forget last year, Giddens is not a moron anymore, so someone should trade for him!"

Ultimately, I think they are both flawed players.  Giddens seems to be awfully close to Tony Allen when it comes to basketball IQ, and may be even more of a spaz in general, and Walker is just plain Raw. 

Basically, I think both of those guys can be had for anyone who wants to take them...but gun to his head, I think Danny still prefers Walker, who has much more of the mental side of the game down.

Although I don't expect to see Walker in Boston anytime soon, since he looked heavy and slow in the D-League video.  He needs to get back into game shape.

[celticinorlando]

giddens, walker, allen, scal can all be traded for an actual guy that can contribute.

[ssspence]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a bench shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

I don't think he's doing anything differently from what he usually does. He's never been a pg and he's never been a good defender. The only real difference I see is that teams are attacking him off the dribble. I've always wondered why more teams never did this because he honestly might be the worse defender in the league.

It was the one season in Eddie House's whole career where he had an above average TS% ... and so far this season he has looked incapable of reproducing that form. I think it's a mistake to base expectations on one season which is so far removed from his normal contributions.

House's defense + his rebounding have also seen a slight dip in performance too. At 31, turns 32 in the playoffs, it looks like old age + decline are beginning to settle in. I think we've seen the best that Eddie House has to offer and that things will only get worse from here.

Next offseason, it'll be the right time to move on.

I don't think House has declined at all. If he would stop trying to run the point and let Quis and the other guys set him up his numbers would bump up a bit. I stand by my original statement concerning his D it's the same as it's always been. Players are just deciding to attack him this year. He's never had the speed to challenge anyone, but for some reason players have never really tested him.

i agree. he just has a very specific role as an energy shooter that he excels at, and shouldn't be asked to do too much. he can shoot you right back into a playoff game at any time. for $3mil, he's more than worth it.

would it be nice to have a PG who can handle the ball and defend the 2 next to him? sure. but it's not an either / or situation.

[ssspence]

I don't see the optimism in Hudson, Walker or Giddens, though, honestly, Giddens isn't getting a lot. I don't think any of the three have shown more than one skill that could be called NBA quality. I say dump all three and try to start next year with their 2010 first round pick and another pick they could try to get a hold of.

right now you hang on to the talented (cheap) project and get rid of the rest. That means Walker and Hudson to me -- I'm not counting guys who play like House and Williams.

Scal is completely expendable. TA obviously. And Giddens ---- please.... please Danny will you trade him. It just makes me mad that he's as terrible looking on the floor as he is and he's even a Boston Celtic.

[Chris]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a bench shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

I don't think he's doing anything differently from what he usually does. He's never been a pg and he's never been a good defender. The only real difference I see is that teams are attacking him off the dribble. I've always wondered why more teams never did this because he honestly might be the worse defender in the league.

It was the one season in Eddie House's whole career where he had an above average TS% ... and so far this season he has looked incapable of reproducing that form. I think it's a mistake to base expectations on one season which is so far removed from his normal contributions.

House's defense + his rebounding have also seen a slight dip in performance too. At 31, turns 32 in the playoffs, it looks like old age + decline are beginning to settle in. I think we've seen the best that Eddie House has to offer and that things will only get worse from here.

Next offseason, it'll be the right time to move on.

The problem is, the C's have Bird Rights on him, and may need to fill several crucial spots.  While they may fill them through trades, I think there is a good chance that House sticks around, mainly because of those Bird Rights (much like Tony Allen a couple of years ago).

The C's are going to have to replace Daniels (most likely), and maybe even Ray (although I doubt it), and will only have the MLE and vet minimum contracts to do it.

Ultimately, I think they throw some money at guys like Randy Foye, Roger Mason, Steve Blake, or even Mike Miller, and then resign House to play next to them.

[scoop]

I'm happy with the Celtics depth this season. I think they're 11 deep with Sheed, Daniels, House, Davis, Scal and Shelden Williams. Tony Allen, maybe, 12 deep.

There is not many teams in the NBA who can say they have more than 11/12 players capable of stepping into a rotation and doing a solid job. 11/12 players is a good amount, depth wise, that's deep.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be looking more at the end of the bench in terms of next season -- and for me, the three wings (TA, Giddens, Walker) and House are look to be on the way out.

Most of those guys, except for House, are going to be swapping out minimum contracts for other (hopefully better) minimum contract players.

I haven't seen enough of Lestor Hudson. He may be an okay choice as a third string point guard, I don't know. I like the big man rotation (Sheed + Davis + Scal + Shelden). There's good quality, flexibility and depth in that rotation.

So a primary backup point guard + a secondary backup wing + 13-15th men insurance players or young talent additions.

Red - I don't agree that rotation offers enough flexibility and quality. There's flexibility and there's quality, but I'm not sure if they go along. I think it's missing a better version of Scal (nothing special, just Scal with much better rebounding ability). There's only one above average rebounder in that rotation and he's the 5th/6th big man (aggravated by the fact that all the others are sub-par rebounders). There's only one guy who's comfortable defending mobile, perimeter orienteded PFs and he's the 5th/6th big man. I'd be happy to replace any one of those players with someone who'd make the team more comfortable matching up small-ball line-ups (especially if Garnett keeps struggling to defend quicker players).

Green - I don't see Daniels sticking around for the non-Bird exception. We'll need to waste a fair part of the MLE if we want to retain him in the next off-season. That will make difficult to grab a quality backup guard plus a secondary wing backup in the FA market. Difficult to predict at this point.

I fully agree with the rest of the post.   

[Roy Hobbs]

Has Eddie really been that bad?  He's got the second highest eFG% and TS% of his career (down from last year, but better than his first year in Boston), and the team is +49 with him on the floor (the second highest mark among bench players).  In terms of Opponent's Production (a flawed stat), he's statistically been one of the better defenders on the team.  Indeed, our team has allowed fewer points per possession with Eddie in the game than they have with him on the bench.

Overall, I think Eddie has been fine.  He's not a ball handler, but he's an excellent shooter who hustles on both ends.  At times I'd prefer a pure point guard, as well, but for what Eddie is asked to do, he does it well.

[KJ33]

Chemistry, chemistry, chemistry.  The C's should not and will not make any major moves to the roster this year.  It going to take them almost the full year to work out the kinks with the current players they have.  Danny did his work in the offseason to strengthen the bench.  Could they use better players?  Sure, what team couldn't?  They have the #1 record in the East, 2nd best overall, and we want to change the players? 

This is the domain of fantasy leagues, not the real world.  Doc needs to continue to mix and match players, getting them comfortable with each other and his schemes.  That alone is a major task, even if they had 9 All-Stars.  Simply swapping out this piece for that piece, with less than a full season to integrate them is just not going to work.  A PJ piece for a specific need, is one thing, but there is not that one glaring need right now.  The bigger issues with this team are how they play, not who the players are.  Compared to the league, they have enough horses, can they dance in step is the only remaining question, and that will take awhile to sort out, all the more reason for leaving the current roster intact, not shuffle the deck.

[nickagneta]

Chemistry, chemistry, chemistry.  The C's should not and will not make any major moves to the roster this year.  It going to take them almost the full year to work out the kinks with the current players they have.  Danny did his work in the offseason to strengthen the bench.  Could they use better players?  Sure, what team couldn't?  They have the #1 record in the East, 2nd best overall, and we want to change the players? 

This is the domain of fantasy leagues, not the real world.  Doc needs to continue to mix and match players, getting them comfortable with each other and his schemes.  That alone is a major task, even if they had 9 All-Stars.  Simply swapping out this piece for that piece, with less than a full season to integrate them is just not going to work.  A PJ piece for a specific need, is one thing, but there is not that one glaring need right now.  The bigger issues with this team are how they play, not who the players are.  Compared to the league, they have enough horses, can they dance in step is the only remaining question, and that will take awhile to sort out, all the more reason for leaving the current roster intact, not shuffle the deck.

Who here at any point was asking for major changes to role players. Just about everyone hasn't even mentioned moving the team's top eight to nine players. This discussion is regarding the end of the bench that primarily is getting little to no playing time anyway. Just how much integration is going to be needed if we exchange our 12-15th players for two players that will be 10th and 11th on the depth chart and see a combined 10-11 minutes per game if that?

We aren't talking about trading Ray or Rondo or Williams or even Davis. We are talking about trading Tony, Scal, Giddens, Walker, Hudson and/or House for upgrades at PG and SF and or maybe a player that we can slide in behind Williams and/or Daniels in case we lose them next year.

I don't see the danger in trading players that barely play or how replacing them with better talent would screw up the chemistry of this team.