Celtics end of bench in need of a face lift.

[nickagneta]

I understand what you guys are saying but the economic situation and the free agent market are so completely different this year from any previous year, that this has to be brought into the equation. Dismissing the possibility outright that it is not possible because it hasn't happened before, precludes the thinking that all other factors this season are the same as every other year. That simply isn't true.

This off season is going to be so much different than most any other off season ever as the economy takes it's toll on season ticket renewals, merchandise purchasing, the salary and luxury tax. This is then going to effect the way teams do business not only this off season but in planning of the anticipation of the upcoming off season.

New Orleans will almost assuredly make a deal dropping salary this season and beyond. Charlotte and Memphis might start looking to dump contracts, not just bad ones, as their ownerships look to sell. Sacramento is in dire straights with an antiquated arena and owners losing big bucks in the movie production and Las Vegas hotel industries. Golden State is in a state of chaos and could be looking to move a good portion of their roster and New York, Chicago, New Jersey, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Toronto and some other teams might be looking to dump salary for free agency purposes.

I really think you guys are underselling what could be happening in the league come this trade deadline.

I don't disagree with any of this.  What I think you are overestimating however, is the C's financial situation. 

At the trade deadline, there will be a lot of sellers.  However, they are going to be looking to get rid of bad contracts.  Perhaps teams will give up more assets than usual to get rid of the bad contracts, but that is because no one wants to take on those contracts right now.  All of the teams are struggling for money, including the C's.

Most of the guys you listed were young, somewhat talented players, who had reasonable, if not bargain contracts.  So in order for teams to trade them for expiring contracts, they would also need the C's to take one (or more) of their bad contracts...and I just don't see that happening.

I know that's what I listed and perhaps they have to take on a Posey contarct to get a Julian Wright. Or perhaps they have to take on an Andre Miller to get a Nicolas Batum, a Corey Maggette to get a Brandon Wright, a Beno urdrih to get a Donte Green, a reggie Evans to get a Jarrett Jack.

I know we aren't going to get a perfect deal, but I think it quite possible to minimize the amount of the bad contract you have to taken in while maximizing the talent and future you are also getting. It will be a fine line Danny will need to tread by making sure whatever "bad" contract he takes back can be a player we might be able to get some good out of.

As an example, look at the Scal contract. 4-5 years ago people would have considered that a bad contract, okay, it was a bad contract. But the C's made the most of it and Scal has turned into a pretty decent role player and model for what you want from a late bench guy. Perhaps the C's can get someone who has a "bad" contract but can give them years worth of good solid production.

[wdleehi]

The only move I think the Celtics make is to get a large PG (likely with more then one year on his contract)

That way, they can play him next to House.  He can run the offense but defend the SG.  Daniels can play more SF.  Plus, he would provide a better stand in for Rondo (if he was to be hurt for an extended time)


Outside of that, I don't see a mjaor need to upgrade.  They are 6 deep at PF/C.  They have Daniels, House and Scali to back up Pierce and Ray.

It is the depth behind PG that has been an issues the past two seasons.  (see mid season signings of Cassell and Marbury)

[ManUp]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

[wdleehi]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

How did Hudson get on that list?  What has he done?

[ManUp]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

How did Hudson get on that list?  What has he done?

Ummm... Not look terrible. Defend and hit the open shot the garbage time he plays. By reserve i mean guys who don't suit up, BTW

[wdleehi]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

How did Hudson get on that list?  What has he done?

Ummm... Not look terrible. Defend and hit the open shot the garbage time he plays. By reserve i mean guys who don't suit up, BTW

Until he does something outside of that time, he is in the same boat as JR and Walker.

[ManUp]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

How did Hudson get on that list?  What has he done?

Ummm... Not look terrible. Defend and hit the open shot the garbage time he plays. By reserve i mean guys who don't suit up, BTW

Until he does something outside of that time, he is in the same boat as JR and Walker.

That's your line of thinking. I personally believe that Hudson has looked good enough to stick as a reserve. JR has that clueless look on him at all times, and Walker is a hacker who can't stay on the floor. Hudson is a hustler with good defense and a good jumper. I think if Doc were to give him a real shot he'd do well.

[Tai]

I understand what you guys are saying but the economic situation and the free agent market are so completely different this year from any previous year, that this has to be brought into the equation. Dismissing the possibility outright that it is not possible because it hasn't happened before, precludes the thinking that all other factors this season are the same as every other year. That simply isn't true.

This off season is going to be so much different than most any other off season ever as the economy takes it's toll on season ticket renewals, merchandise purchasing, the salary and luxury tax. This is then going to effect the way teams do business not only this off season but in planning of the anticipation of the upcoming off season.

New Orleans will almost assuredly make a deal dropping salary this season and beyond. Charlotte and Memphis might start looking to dump contracts, not just bad ones, as their ownerships look to sell. Sacramento is in dire straights with an antiquated arena and owners losing big bucks in the movie production and Las Vegas hotel industries. Golden State is in a state of chaos and could be looking to move a good portion of their roster and New York, Chicago, New Jersey, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Toronto and some other teams might be looking to dump salary for free agency purposes.

I really think you guys are underselling what could be happening in the league come this trade deadline.

I don't disagree with any of this.  What I think you are overestimating however, is the C's financial situation. 

At the trade deadline, there will be a lot of sellers.  However, they are going to be looking to get rid of bad contracts.  Perhaps teams will give up more assets than usual to get rid of the bad contracts, but that is because no one wants to take on those contracts right now.  All of the teams are struggling for money, including the C's.

Most of the guys you listed were young, somewhat talented players, who had reasonable, if not bargain contracts.  So in order for teams to trade them for expiring contracts, they would also need the C's to take one (or more) of their bad contracts...and I just don't see that happening.

I know that's what I listed and perhaps they have to take on a Posey contarct to get a Julian Wright. Or perhaps they have to take on an Andre Miller to get a Nicolas Batum, a Corey Maggette to get a Brandon Wright, a Beno urdrih to get a Donte Green, a reggie Evans to get a Jarrett Jack.

I know we aren't going to get a perfect deal, but I think it quite possible to minimize the amount of the bad contract you have to taken in while maximizing the talent and future you are also getting. It will be a fine line Danny will need to tread by making sure whatever "bad" contract he takes back can be a player we might be able to get some good out of.

As an example, look at the Scal contract. 4-5 years ago people would have considered that a bad contract, okay, it was a bad contract. But the C's made the most of it and Scal has turned into a pretty decent role player and model for what you want from a late bench guy. Perhaps the C's can get someone who has a "bad" contract but can give them years worth of good solid production.

I just don't know who we can get for our 10-15 guys. A "bad" contract from another team implies we can get not just one but two players in return for our end of bench guys, and I'd be ok with that. But will that player with a "bad contract be good?

[Who]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

[Fafnir]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a bench shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

[ManUp]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

I don't think he's doing anything differently from what he usually does. He's never been a pg and he's never been a good defender. The only real difference I see is that teams are attacking him off the dribble. I've always wondered why more teams never did this because he honestly might be the worse defender in the league.

[nickagneta]

Yup, Yup, I'm with you Nick.

The big issue with our bench is that after Sheed, Daniels, and Davis we have a bunch of guys who should be playing lesser roles. Everyone with the exception of House*, Scal, Williams, and Hudson are detractors of the team when they are out there. Williams is a great 4th big, House is a good 4th wing, Scalabrine and Hudsons are reserves.I put an asterick by Houses name because when he's not hitting a jumper he's not even an NBA player, IMO.

I think we need to upgrade House for a better combo guard, and bring in some better wing players. House to me is a player without a position because he can't defend or play the point, and he's way to short to play SG. As for the wings Daniels is our only bench wing who is dependable. Tony, Giddens, and Walker aren't going to cut it. I like Hudson, but he's on the older side of things so he's not worth keeping as a prospect, especially under Doc.

I think Foye would be a great House upgrade, and someone like James Jones would make a great 4th wing.

How did Hudson get on that list?  What has he done?

Ummm... Not look terrible. Defend and hit the open shot the garbage time he plays. By reserve i mean guys who don't suit up, BTW

Until he does something outside of that time, he is in the same boat as JR and Walker.

That's your line of thinking. I personally believe that Hudson has looked good enough to stick as a reserve. JR has that clueless look on him at all times, and Walker is a hacker who can't stay on the floor. Hudson is a hustler with good defense and a good jumper. I think if Doc were to give him a real shot he'd do well.

I have to agree with wdleehi. Hudson hasn't shown much of anything. He dribbles into corners or into traps. He doesn't seem to be able to run the offense without over dribbling. His passing is, at best, average. He often is missing open men in the halfcourt which questions his court vision. And in limited time his shot selection hasn't been great or that successful.

On the court he has shown me nothing and at 26 years old he isn't some developing youngster. He either has it or he doesn't and he hasn't done one thing on the floor that shows me he has it.

[Who]

I'm happy with the Celtics depth this season. I think they're 11 deep with Sheed, Daniels, House, Davis, Scal and Shelden Williams. Tony Allen, maybe, 12 deep.

There is not many teams in the NBA who can say they have more than 11/12 players capable of stepping into a rotation and doing a solid job. 11/12 players is a good amount, depth wise, that's deep.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be looking more at the end of the bench in terms of next season -- and for me, the three wings (TA, Giddens, Walker) and House are look to be on the way out.

Most of those guys, except for House, are going to be swapping out minimum contracts for other (hopefully better) minimum contract players.

I haven't seen enough of Lestor Hudson. He may be an okay choice as a third string point guard, I don't know. I like the big man rotation (Sheed + Davis + Scal + Shelden). There's good quality, flexibility and depth in that rotation.

So a primary backup point guard + a secondary backup wing + 13-15th men insurance players or young talent additions.

[nickagneta]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

Well after 2 plus year here we certainly know what he can do at the point and I'm pretty sure other teams do too. He's pretty much a short, catch and shoot, defensive liability of a PG that can't play the point.

[Who]

I think Eddie House is playing himself out of Boston ... he'll do a solid job for the Celtics this season but I don't think he deserves to be re-signed in offseason.

He had one of the most efficient seasons for a bench shooter ever last year, I'm not so sure he won't still have value. But it all depends on what else we can do at the PG spot.

I don't think he's doing anything differently from what he usually does. He's never been a pg and he's never been a good defender. The only real difference I see is that teams are attacking him off the dribble. I've always wondered why more teams never did this because he honestly might be the worse defender in the league.

It was the one season in Eddie House's whole career where he had an above average TS% ... and so far this season he has looked incapable of reproducing that form. I think it's a mistake to base expectations on one season which is so far removed from his normal contributions.

House's defense + his rebounding have also seen a slight dip in performance too. At 31, turns 32 in the playoffs, it looks like old age + decline are beginning to settle in. I think we've seen the best that Eddie House has to offer and that things will only get worse from here.

Next offseason, it'll be the right time to move on.