We Are Too Old

[Drucci]

This team lacks a leader.  We lack a player that we can really count on to be our best player each night. 

Ray, Pierce, and KG all used to be guys who could do that, but now they are either too old or too unfocused to do that.  You can't rely on any one of them to take over a game when necessary. 

Rondo, as the future of this franchise, ought to be able to do that.  But he isn't doing that, and I'm starting to wonder if he can.  Does he have the mentality to be the alpha dog?  Does he have the mentality to be the emotional and mental center of the team?  Because I think that's what we're lacking.

Teams like the Lakers, the Magic, the Cavs, and now even the Hawks - they have a leader.  They have a guy who they can count on. 

The Celtics used to seem so deadly because they had THREE guys like that.  Now it seems like they don't have any.  They just have a starting lineup filled with a good deal of talent. 

We need a superstar.  I'm not sure that we have one anymore.

I'm not sure we need a leader. We know we can count on Pierce and Ray when we need to hit big shots.

Look at the Pistons under Billups : they had no superstar or star, but just 5 guys who shared the ball a lot and all scored +10 points. It was a unit and I think our team was in that mold for the first 6 games of the season. Now... it seems that the passing game is gone, and so if our offense. But in my opinion we don't need a "superstar", just a collective effort from the team each night, which means that, yes, Rondo should bring some consistent scoring (13 points would be good) and defense every game.

[PosImpos]

This team lacks a leader.  We lack a player that we can really count on to be our best player each night. 

Ray, Pierce, and KG all used to be guys who could do that, but now they are either too old or too unfocused to do that.  You can't rely on any one of them to take over a game when necessary. 

Rondo, as the future of this franchise, ought to be able to do that.  But he isn't doing that, and I'm starting to wonder if he can.  Does he have the mentality to be the alpha dog?  Does he have the mentality to be the emotional and mental center of the team?  Because I think that's what we're lacking.

Teams like the Lakers, the Magic, the Cavs, and now even the Hawks - they have a leader.  They have a guy who they can count on. 

The Celtics used to seem so deadly because they had THREE guys like that.  Now it seems like they don't have any.  They just have a starting lineup filled with a good deal of talent. 

We need a superstar.  I'm not sure that we have one anymore.

I'm not sure we need a leader. We know we can count on Pierce and Ray when we need to hit big shots.

Look at the Pistons under Billups : they had no superstar or star, but just 5 guys who shared the ball a lot and all scored +10 points. It was a unit and I think our team was in that mold for the first 6 games of the season. Now... it seems that the passing game is gone, and so if our offense. But in my opinion we don't need a "superstar", just a collective effort from the team each night, which means that, yes, Rondo should bring some consistent scoring (13 points would be good) and defense every game.

Thing is even the Pistons had Billups.  Nobody on our team is even performing in that role.

I know this will probably change, but we also haven't really seen that "big-shot-making" ability from any of the Big 3 so far this year.  I don't have that much confidence in our team to win games when it comes down to the line.

On the other hand, I felt the same way at the end of last season and then we had that Bulls series where we won numerous games on big shots.

Still, I stand by my point.  I think we lack a leader, a true go-to guy on both ends of the floor.  Until somebody emerges as that (and I think it really needs to be Rondo), our team won't be playing to their full potential.

[moiso]

Pierce seems to be our offensive leader, KG the defensive leader.  It would be nice if Rondo stepped up a little bit as an offensive leader by attacking and forcing the action a little bit more.

[wdleehi]

I agree that the leadership is lacking right now.



Someone needs to kick this team in the pants.  The only one that seems to be trying is Perk, but the vets are not likely to follow him.

[KungPoweChicken]

Wasn't the Michael Jordan Bulls of the second trifecta older than this group? At the end of their fourth championship the main players for that group was

Michael Jordan  33 years old
Scottie Pippen  31 years old
Dennis Rodman   35 years old
Ron Harper      32 years old
Steve Kerr      31 years old
Bill Wennington 33 years old

Now add two years to that to get how old these players were when they won their last championship in 1998:

Michael Jordan  35 years old
Scottie Pippen  33 years old
Dennis Rodman   37 years old
Ron Harper      34 years old
Steve Kerr      33 years old
Bill Wennington 35 years old

Now let's look at how old our players will be come this June:

Paul Pierce        33 years old
Kevin Garnett      34 years old
Ray Allen          34 years old
Rasheed Wallace    35 years old
Eddie House        32 years old
Kendrick Perkins   25 years old
Rajon Rondo        24 years old
Marquis Daniels    29 years old

I don't think we are too old at all. I think we probably have this year and at least next year to be championship contenders before our core of stars gets old. But even then, our young stars might be ready then to take over and allow the stars to take secondary roles and still be championship competitive.

With all do respect, you're omitting Luc Longley and Toni Kukoc, who, without question, were younger players and played bigger roles on that Bulls team than Wennington and Kerr. And Needless to say, this Celtics team does not have Michael Jordan, nor do they have a player even close to his caliber.

[nickagneta]

Wasn't the Michael Jordan Bulls of the second trifecta older than this group? At the end of their fourth championship the main players for that group was

Michael Jordan  33 years old
Scottie Pippen  31 years old
Dennis Rodman   35 years old
Ron Harper      32 years old
Steve Kerr      31 years old
Bill Wennington 33 years old

Now add two years to that to get how old these players were when they won their last championship in 1998:

Michael Jordan  35 years old
Scottie Pippen  33 years old
Dennis Rodman   37 years old
Ron Harper      34 years old
Steve Kerr      33 years old
Bill Wennington 35 years old

Now let's look at how old our players will be come this June:

Paul Pierce        33 years old
Kevin Garnett      34 years old
Ray Allen          34 years old
Rasheed Wallace    35 years old
Eddie House        32 years old
Kendrick Perkins   25 years old
Rajon Rondo        24 years old
Marquis Daniels    29 years old

I don't think we are too old at all. I think we probably have this year and at least next year to be championship contenders before our core of stars gets old. But even then, our young stars might be ready then to take over and allow the stars to take secondary roles and still be championship competitive.

With all do respect, you're omitting Luc Longley and Toni Kukoc, who, without question, were younger players and played bigger roles on that Bulls team than Wennington and Kerr. And Needless to say, this Celtics team does not have Michael Jordan, nor do they have a player even close to his caliber.

Yet the fact remains that their top 4 players are probably as good as the bulls top 4 players and the Bulls still got a lot of run from Kerr, Harper, Rodman and Wennington.

Player             Year          MPG
Kerr                1995-96     23.4
Kerr                1996-97     22.7 
Kerr                1997-98     22.4
Rodman        1995-96     32.6
Rodman        1996-97     35.4
Rodman        1997-98     35.7
Harper           1995-96     23.6
Harper           1996-97     22.9
Harper           1997-98     27.9
Wennington  1995-96     15.0
Wennington  1996-97     12.8
Wennington  1997-98      9.7

I can't see how you can down play the contributions of Kerr, Rodman, Harper and Wennington when the are playing minutes that are more than or about equal to KG, Rasheed, Daniels, and House and are about the same ages or older than those players.

[jdub1660]

This team is old, but that has little to do with the problem. There's no rhythm and bad coaching. I don't think it's actual "chemistry" but more of sorry plays not built or ran properly. Each player in the 9 man rotation has skills to make a better offense run perfect.
Rondo - slash and pass or fancy layup(occasional dunk)
Ray - Pick and pop, catch and shoot
Pierce - slash, draw the foul and hit the J
KG - baseline jumper, post up fadeaway
Perk - Camp out in the paint and wait for a pass from KG/ Rondo
House - Wait for a pick and hit a 3
Marquis - Post up a Guard, spin and hit an 8' J in the paint
Sheed - same as KG all day, Wait at the top of the circle for 3

What I have noticed is that the plays ran aren't in a flowing sequence. If KG is cold, and Sheed is clanking 3s, Doc follows up with 1 play for Ray, then Pierce takes over. The ball needs to move. Sheed was taking too many 3s, now he looks like a troubled rookie not knowing when to shoot. Eddie the same thing. They're both passing up the shot. MD comes in, makes a nice play, then disappears.
I really feel like the team needs one more player that can create his own shot - whether it be off the dribble or moving better w/o the ball. AI would be great with his own shot, but he needs too many attempts to make points. Nocioni is a great slasher and draws fouls. What realistic trade could make this team run better, move the ball and get a good shot...

[moiso]

This team is old, but that has little to do with the problem. There's no rhythm and bad coaching. I don't think it's actual "chemistry" but more of sorry plays not built or ran properly. Each player in the 9 man rotation has skills to make a better offense run perfect.
Rondo - slash and pass or fancy layup(occasional dunk)
Ray - Pick and pop, catch and shoot
Pierce - slash, draw the foul and hit the J
KG - baseline jumper, post up fadeaway
Perk - Camp out in the paint and wait for a pass from KG/ Rondo
House - Wait for a pick and hit a 3
Marquis - Post up a Guard, spin and hit an 8' J in the paint
Sheed - same as KG all day, Wait at the top of the circle for 3

What I have noticed is that the plays ran aren't in a flowing sequence. If KG is cold, and Sheed is clanking 3s, Doc follows up with 1 play for Ray, then Pierce takes over. The ball needs to move. Sheed was taking too many 3s, now he looks like a troubled rookie not knowing when to shoot. Eddie the same thing. They're both passing up the shot. MD comes in, makes a nice play, then disappears.
I really feel like the team needs one more player that can create his own shot - whether it be off the dribble or moving better w/o the ball. AI would be great with his own shot, but he needs too many attempts to make points. Nocioni is a great slasher and draws fouls. What realistic trade could make this team run better, move the ball and get a good shot...

Well, he's not good at many things, but Tony Allen is a great slasher.  He is excellent at blowing by guys and getting to the line.  Maybe he'll actually help us.  Maybe not.

[KungPoweChicken]

Wasn't the Michael Jordan Bulls of the second trifecta older than this group? At the end of their fourth championship the main players for that group was

Michael Jordan  33 years old
Scottie Pippen  31 years old
Dennis Rodman   35 years old
Ron Harper      32 years old
Steve Kerr      31 years old
Bill Wennington 33 years old

Now add two years to that to get how old these players were when they won their last championship in 1998:

Michael Jordan  35 years old
Scottie Pippen  33 years old
Dennis Rodman   37 years old
Ron Harper      34 years old
Steve Kerr      33 years old
Bill Wennington 35 years old

Now let's look at how old our players will be come this June:

Paul Pierce        33 years old
Kevin Garnett      34 years old
Ray Allen          34 years old
Rasheed Wallace    35 years old
Eddie House        32 years old
Kendrick Perkins   25 years old
Rajon Rondo        24 years old
Marquis Daniels    29 years old

I don't think we are too old at all. I think we probably have this year and at least next year to be championship contenders before our core of stars gets old. But even then, our young stars might be ready then to take over and allow the stars to take secondary roles and still be championship competitive.

With all do respect, you're omitting Luc Longley and Toni Kukoc, who, without question, were younger players and played bigger roles on that Bulls team than Wennington and Kerr. And Needless to say, this Celtics team does not have Michael Jordan, nor do they have a player even close to his caliber.

Yet the fact remains that their top 4 players are probably as good as the bulls top 4 players and the Bulls still got a lot of run from Kerr, Harper, Rodman and Wennington.

Player             Year          MPG
Kerr                1995-96     23.4
Kerr                1996-97     22.7 
Kerr                1997-98     22.4
Rodman        1995-96     32.6
Rodman        1996-97     35.4
Rodman        1997-98     35.7
Harper           1995-96     23.6
Harper           1996-97     22.9
Harper           1997-98     27.9
Wennington  1995-96     15.0
Wennington  1996-97     12.8
Wennington  1997-98      9.7

I can't see how you can down play the contributions of Kerr, Rodman, Harper and Wennington when the are playing minutes that are more than or about equal to KG, Rasheed, Daniels, and House and are about the same ages or older than those players.

I never tried down playing Rodman's importance to the Bulls. Good use of hyperbole, though. The simple fact is this: Wennington was hardly a factor in the 1997 1998 season, as he only played 48 games at 10 minutes a game. Kerr only played 50 games at 22 minutes a game, whereas Kukoc and Longley played 30 minutes a night, and both were much more important to the Bulls.

[footey]

I see alot of denial on this thread.  It is the same starting five today as two years ago, when they won the championship. Two years ago, many asked whether they had enough legs to pull it off.  The only thing different from then is the fact that they are two years older.  Powe,Posey and Brown's absence is more then made up by Sheed, Williams and Daniels. 

[Roy Hobbs]

Age probably factors in, but age doesn't account for:

1) Rondo's inconsistency and frequent lack of aggressiveness;

2) Rasheed's shooting slump;

3) House's shooting slump;

Additionally, KG is still recovering from an injury, which probably has something to do with age, but should get better as the season goes on.

[housecall]

Age probably factors in, but age doesn't account for:

1) Rondo's inconsistency and frequent lack of aggressiveness;

2) Rasheed's shooting slump;

3) House's shooting slump;

Additionally, KG is still recovering from an injury, which probably has something to do with age, but should get better as the season goes on.

I agree with you,especially in KG's situation.He said in a recent radio interview a few days ago,he wasn't all the way where he needs to be with his speed,shooting,etc...said it takes time to get close to what he wants.Sometimes patience is needed when a player is coming off injuries.

[nickagneta]

Wasn't the Michael Jordan Bulls of the second trifecta older than this group? At the end of their fourth championship the main players for that group was

Michael Jordan  33 years old
Scottie Pippen  31 years old
Dennis Rodman   35 years old
Ron Harper      32 years old
Steve Kerr      31 years old
Bill Wennington 33 years old

Now add two years to that to get how old these players were when they won their last championship in 1998:

Michael Jordan  35 years old
Scottie Pippen  33 years old
Dennis Rodman   37 years old
Ron Harper      34 years old
Steve Kerr      33 years old
Bill Wennington 35 years old

Now let's look at how old our players will be come this June:

Paul Pierce        33 years old
Kevin Garnett      34 years old
Ray Allen          34 years old
Rasheed Wallace    35 years old
Eddie House        32 years old
Kendrick Perkins   25 years old
Rajon Rondo        24 years old
Marquis Daniels    29 years old

I don't think we are too old at all. I think we probably have this year and at least next year to be championship contenders before our core of stars gets old. But even then, our young stars might be ready then to take over and allow the stars to take secondary roles and still be championship competitive.

With all do respect, you're omitting Luc Longley and Toni Kukoc, who, without question, were younger players and played bigger roles on that Bulls team than Wennington and Kerr. And Needless to say, this Celtics team does not have Michael Jordan, nor do they have a player even close to his caliber.

Yet the fact remains that their top 4 players are probably as good as the bulls top 4 players and the Bulls still got a lot of run from Kerr, Harper, Rodman and Wennington.

Player             Year          MPG
Kerr                1995-96     23.4
Kerr                1996-97     22.7 
Kerr                1997-98     22.4
Rodman        1995-96     32.6
Rodman        1996-97     35.4
Rodman        1997-98     35.7
Harper           1995-96     23.6
Harper           1996-97     22.9
Harper           1997-98     27.9
Wennington  1995-96     15.0
Wennington  1996-97     12.8
Wennington  1997-98      9.7

I can't see how you can down play the contributions of Kerr, Rodman, Harper and Wennington when the are playing minutes that are more than or about equal to KG, Rasheed, Daniels, and House and are about the same ages or older than those players.

I never tried down playing Rodman's importance to the Bulls. Good use of hyperbole, though. The simple fact is this: Wennington was hardly a factor in the 1997 1998 season, as he only played 48 games at 10 minutes a game. Kerr only played 50 games at 22 minutes a game, whereas Kukoc and Longley played 30 minutes a night, and both were much more important to the Bulls.

Was Rodman any less important to that club than Ray or KG is to this? No, but he was older and played more minutes than they will and no one was calling Rodman old. And yes, Kukoc and Longley were yonug but so are Rondo and Perk and all four players play comparative roles on their respective clubs, namely 4th and 5th players of importance.

But Kerr can be favorably compared to House in what he is going to give and Wennington can probably be compared to what Sheed will give us except Sheed is a helluva lot better. I think the rosters are quite comparable for what each comparable player gives his team and what their ages are. This team is no more or less older than that first Bulls second run champion in age and makeup with the possible exception being our #1 player isn't as good as theirs but I'll take our players 2-8 over their 2-8 any day of the week.

Simply put, when compared in that vein, our Celtics are as young as their players were and yet no one was even considering calling those Bulls old but people are calling these C's old imply because they are having a bit of a funk.

[dark_lord]

the entire "old" argument is not accurate imo.  rasheed looks old, kg looks older but it is likely due to coming back from injury since he looked fine last season b4 the injury.  ray looks solid, and pierce is looks fine.  so the way i look at it, we have 1 and a 1/2  "old" players.  the 1 is a role player off the bench, while the "1/2" is expected to get stronger and better (not to mention an old kg is better than most of the league's big men anyway).

everyone needs to take a deep breath.  we are in a slump over the last few games, and the team has only played 13 games.  have faith and support the team, rather than make ridiculous trade ideas, sky is falling thread after thread, etc.  just breath

[Bahku]

the entire "old" argument is not accurate imo.  rasheed looks old, kg looks older but it is likely due to coming back from injury since he looked fine last season b4 the injury.  ray looks solid, and pierce is looks fine.  so the way i look at it, we have 1 and a 1/2  "old" players.  the 1 is a role player off the bench, while the "1/2" is expected to get stronger and better (not to mention an old kg is better than most of the league's big men anyway).

everyone needs to take a deep breath.  we are in a slump over the last few games, and the team has only played 13 games.  have faith and support the team, rather than make ridiculous trade ideas, sky is falling thread after thread, etc.  just breath

Well said, my friend  ... the whole "old" argument just doesn't hold up under scrutiny, and there's far too much panic going on here. It's very early in the season, and I just don't see ANY big problems that can't be corrected easily or that spell "doom" for this team. Everyone needs to give these guys (the Celtics) the benefit of the doubt and the experience of their years, and let them make the adjustments and improvements they need to. Do people here honestly think they're so naive' as to not know how they're coming up short or what areas they need to correct? Come on ... this is a veteran team, with one of the best coaching teams in the league, and they know what they're doing and what they need to improve on. There seems to be a huge lack of faith in this very experienced team ... just relax, people ... the C's will be back on top again very soon.