Is It Time To Trade Ray Allen?

[housecall]

this thread sounds like a knee-jerk reaction... down in May and June when Ray is hitting game winning 3's or having a 30,40pt.night ,you will have forgotten this slump happened.

Ray's had 6 30 pt games since joining the celtics. none over 40. don't really see that happening.

Where were you during last playoffs aganist the Bulls?If my memory is correct,i think Ray went for 51 in a game.He is very capable of 40 in any given night.My point wasn't that he is going to start scoring 30plus points a night,that when its playoff time,Nov.will not be remembered because he most likely will contribute in a big way on any given night.

[housecall]

He's not having any more 30+ point games against good teams.  Those games were yesterday.  This is now.

what you have a crystal ball or something?

[Bahku]

He's not having any more 30+ point games against good teams.  Those games were yesterday.  This is now.

How can you say this? Ray's in awesome shape and nobody knows what tomorrow will bring. Pierce hasn't had any huge games for a long time either, and the reason there's less chance of this happening is that this team shares the scoring duties as they share the defensive duties, and spread the scoring around, (just look at the game on the 18th against the Warriors ... all starters in double-figures, along with Eddie in doubles and Wallace with eight). This is no longer a team that encourages or cultivates a big scoring game for any one player, but even so, Ray and Paul and KG are all still very capable of putting up those numbers, and I think we'll see it this year.

[greenwise]

I think you had a typo while posting this thread. It should be "Is it Time to EXTEND Ray Allen?". The guy is in shape and playing great. Danny must be already checking and playing with the numbers to get it done soon.

Ray is Jesus, man. 

[GreenFaith1819]

No, not time to trade Ray Allen, IMO.

Just because he doesn't score 20 pts a night doesn't mean he cannot. The way the Celtics Offense is set up, we are not structured for individual scoring outbursts like that, I believe.

Nickagneta brought to my attention (in a recent thread about trading Ray Allen for Monta Ellis) that Ray could very well hit near 30 pts a night---in an offense structured like GSW's.

Ray Allen is a class act and an important part of the Big Three. No one else (Joe Johnson, Monta Ellis, etc) is CLUTCH like him (BOS VS CHA 2007-2008---"Ray Allen for the game....GOT IT!!!! AT THE BUZZER!!!!" lol.

And don't forget how he crossed up Sasha Vujacic VS LA in that comeback win in 2007-2008 Finals GM 4 vs LA.

And the funny part of the CHA game is that Ray was shooting awfully, like 1 for 13, but he nailed that game winner. Opponents can't leave him open. And his defense has improved with BOS as well.

Give him an extension and let him ride off into the sunset with KG and Pierce. We are NOT the 1986 C's where we don't have young talent waiting (Rondo, Perk, Glen Davis, B Walker, Shelden, Marquis). That group alone is good for at least 6th place in East.

I still believe that this core is good enough for a title this year and next. We'll get through this current funk.

Oh and ATL lost last night, the bums

[screwedupmaniac]

No, not time to trade Ray Allen, IMO.

Just because he doesn't score 20 pts a night doesn't mean he cannot. The way the Celtics Offense is set up, we are not structured for individual scoring outbursts like that, I believe.

Nickagneta brought to my attention (in a recent thread about trading Ray Allen for Monta Ellis) that Ray could very well hit near 30 pts a night---in an offense structured like GSW's.

I want to agree with you both on this theory, but I can't, and here's why: Ray Allen is getting wide open shots on a stacked championship contending team, and he's still missing shots. To think that he could suddenly score 30 points a game when teams game plans are to double team him is unrealistic. If he is inconsistent at hitting easy, wide open shots here, he would not excel at trying to create and force his own shots anywhere else.

Ray Allen is a class act and an important part of the Big Three. No one else (Joe Johnson, Monta Ellis, etc) is CLUTCH like him (BOS VS CHA 2007-2008---"Ray Allen for the game....GOT IT!!!! AT THE BUZZER!!!!" lol.

And don't forget how he crossed up Sasha Vujacic VS LA in that comeback win in 2007-2008 Finals GM 4 vs LA.

Here's the thing: if you're good enough, you won't need to hit clutch shots...you'll be crushing the opponents by 20 points. And if we do hypothetically need a clutch shot, I feel perfectly comfortable with my chances with Pierce on the floor.

Also, the Vujacic incident was 2 years ago...2 years makes a huge difference in how someone with Ray Allen's milage plays the game of basketball night in and night out.

Give him an extension and let him ride off into the sunset with KG and Pierce. We are NOT the 1986 C's where we don't have young talent waiting (Rondo, Perk, Glen Davis, B Walker, Shelden, Marquis). That group alone is good for at least 6th place in East.

This group is not good enough for an 8th seed in the East, let alone a 6th seed. They are good complementary pieces to a young but talented offensive weapon. Rondo's our star PG, and he's a heck of a passer and defender, but his shot from everywhere is terrible. with that starting lineup, we'd better hope to god that baby is putting up 30+ points per game.

If I'm Danny, I'm looking at this group of aging vets, and I'm asking myself: "how can we win today, but put ourselves in a position to win tomorrow as well?" Remember, Danny said that if he was Red, he would have traded away the big 3 of the 80's to build for the future. Also, our team owndership has stated very clearly that they have options on the table with ways that they can be active in 2010's free agency. Only way I see that we would have a chance with that is to trade Ray's contract this season for someone who is headed for 2010 free agency.

I appreciate Ray and all he's done for this organization, but I would get over losing him pretty quickly if we swung a deal for a Dwyane Wade calibur player.

[makaveli]

Yes and No
I don't think Danny will do anything this season. I just don't want to see Ray sign a 5+ mill contract when this one is over.
Right now, Ray is changing his game, he is driving inside a lot, he is adjusting to situation when he can't hit from 3.

[greenwise]

Yes and No
I don't think Danny will do anything this season. I just don't want to see Ray sign a 5+ mill contract when this one is over.
Right now, Ray is changing his game, he is driving inside a lot, he is adjusting to situation when he can't hit from 3.

He couldn't do that before in the same way because he was coming back from ankle surgery when he arrived to Boston

[mgent]

At this point, I'd rather trade KG than Ray-Ray.

[hwangjini_1]

for what it is worth in deciding how allen is doing, here are a few simple stats on his 3 point shooting.

career shooting on 3 pts = 39.7%
08-09 3 pts = 41%
09-10 3 pts = 32%

at least so far, his 3 point shooting is down significantly. he is also taking far fewer 3 pt shots this year.

i worry that allen's long distance shooting may finally be eroding.

[Roy Hobbs]

for what it is worth in deciding how allen is doing, here are a few simple stats on his 3 point shooting.

career shooting on 3 pts = 39.7%
08-09 3 pts = 41%
09-10 3 pts = 32%

at least so far, his 3 point shooting is down significantly. he is also taking far fewer 3 pt shots this year.

i worry that allen's long distance shooting may finally be eroding.

At the same time, his current FG% is a career high.  I think it's too early to make judgments about the erosion of Ray's shot after only 13 games.  He's had a couple of bad shooting games that are bringing his average down, without a big game to off set them (mostly because he's not getting as many open looks due to the struggles of our offense as a whole recently.)

[Who]

He's not having any more 30+ point games against good teams.  Those games were yesterday.  This is now.

Agreed -- Ray struggles to be a high level scorer against elite teams. Orlando and Cleveland have both done excellent jobs of shutting him down / limiting him over the past year. I expect other very good to elite teams to do likewise this season.

Ray Allen is at a point in his career where he is firmly a secondary threat offensively. Someone who needs to play off others and rely on others to create for him. He's no longer able to be a consistent go-to guy especially against elite teams.

[wdleehi]

He's not having any more 30+ point games against good teams.  Those games were yesterday.  This is now.

Agreed -- Ray struggles to be a high level scorer against elite teams. Orlando and Cleveland have both done excellent jobs of shutting him down / limiting him over the past year. I expect other very good to elite teams to do likewise this season.

Ray Allen is at a point in his career where he is firmly a secondary threat offensively. Someone who needs to play off others and rely on others to create for him. He's no longer able to be a consistent go-to guy especially against elite teams.

You know what fixes that? 

Get the ball in low and hurt teams. 

[GreenFaith1819]

No, not time to trade Ray Allen, IMO.

Just because he doesn't score 20 pts a night doesn't mean he cannot. The way the Celtics Offense is set up, we are not structured for individual scoring outbursts like that, I believe.

Nickagneta brought to my attention (in a recent thread about trading Ray Allen for Monta Ellis) that Ray could very well hit near 30 pts a night---in an offense structured like GSW's.

I want to agree with you both on this theory, but I can't, and here's why: Ray Allen is getting wide open shots on a stacked championship contending team, and he's still missing shots. To think that he could suddenly score 30 points a game when teams game plans are to double team him is unrealistic. If he is inconsistent at hitting easy, wide open shots here, he would not excel at trying to create and force his own shots anywhere else.

Ray Allen is a class act and an important part of the Big Three. No one else (Joe Johnson, Monta Ellis, etc) is CLUTCH like him (BOS VS CHA 2007-2008---"Ray Allen for the game....GOT IT!!!! AT THE BUZZER!!!!" lol.

And don't forget how he crossed up Sasha Vujacic VS LA in that comeback win in 2007-2008 Finals GM 4 vs LA.

Here's the thing: if you're good enough, you won't need to hit clutch shots...you'll be crushing the opponents by 20 points. And if we do hypothetically need a clutch shot, I feel perfectly comfortable with my chances with Pierce on the floor.

Also, the Vujacic incident was 2 years ago...2 years makes a huge difference in how someone with Ray Allen's milage plays the game of basketball night in and night out.

Give him an extension and let him ride off into the sunset with KG and Pierce. We are NOT the 1986 C's where we don't have young talent waiting (Rondo, Perk, Glen Davis, B Walker, Shelden, Marquis). That group alone is good for at least 6th place in East.

This group is not good enough for an 8th seed in the East, let alone a 6th seed. They are good complementary pieces to a young but talented offensive weapon. Rondo's our star PG, and he's a heck of a passer and defender, but his shot from everywhere is terrible. with that starting lineup, we'd better hope to god that baby is putting up 30+ points per game.

If I'm Danny, I'm looking at this group of aging vets, and I'm asking myself: "how can we win today, but put ourselves in a position to win tomorrow as well?" Remember, Danny said that if he was Red, he would have traded away the big 3 of the 80's to build for the future. Also, our team owndership has stated very clearly that they have options on the table with ways that they can be active in 2010's free agency. Only way I see that we would have a chance with that is to trade Ray's contract this season for someone who is headed for 2010 free agency.

I appreciate Ray and all he's done for this organization, but I would get over losing him pretty quickly if we swung a deal for a Dwyane Wade calibur player.

Screwedupmaniac--you made some good points...Dwayne Wade is maybe the ONLY player in the NBA right now that I would even REMOTELY consider trading Ray for. He is a defensive guard that can score and he has Championship experience.

But at end of the day I would still keep Ray. I'm just sentimental like that. Ray fits in well and doesn't need 30 shots a game to be productive.

With the rumors flying around about Bosh-Wade-Lebron together I still don't give that group anymore than conference semi-finals. Chemistry is key. We all learned that with the Lakers of 2004-2005. But that is another thread for another time.

And IMO Ray would STILL cross up Sasha right now, 4 or 5 yrs from now. But that is just my Laker Dislike showing, I'm sorry  .

And a lot of discussions lately have been about "We're too old"...They said that about the Celtics in 2007-2008, of how the "younger, sleaker, more improved Lakers" would run right over Boston. The old guys proved them wrong.

And you Honestly wouldn't give the C's I listed above a playoff spot?

Good discussion and good points, though. You made me rub my chin over Dwayne Wade.

[Roy Hobbs]

I appreciate Ray and all he's done for this organization, but I would get over losing him pretty quickly if we swung a deal for a Dwyane Wade calibur player.

We'd all trade Ray for a superstar.  The thing is, Wade, CP3, Lebron, and even Joe Johnson aren't going to be available.  The question then becomes, do you dump Ray for a chump like Kirilenko.  I say no, you don't.