Iverson or Marbury?

[JSD]

If you could pick 1 to be on this team, who would it be?

It would have to be Marbury who has already proven he can adapt and not be a problem. Iverson cried about playing time in Detroit and now Memphis and doesn't seem to understand that teams are no longer interested in having him as the go-to guy offensively. It's sad really, if he wasn't so stubborn he'd be a full MLE guy and a possible 6th man in the league.

[RAcker]

If you could pick 1 to be on this team, who would it be?

It would have to be Marbury who has already proven he can adapt and not be a problem. Iverson cried about playing time in Detroit and now Memphis and doesn't seem to understand that teams are no longer interested in having him as the go-to guy offensively. It's sad really, if he wasn't so stubborn he'd be a full MLE guy and a possible 6th man in the league.

Ditto to all of that.

[Fafnir]

If you could pick 1 to be on this team, who would it be?

It would have to be Marbury who has already proven he can adapt and not be a problem. Iverson cried about playing time in Detroit and now Memphis and doesn't seem to understand that teams are no longer interested in having him as the go-to guy offensively. It's sad really, if he wasn't so stubborn he'd be a full MLE guy and a possible 6th man in the league.

Marbury can't play in the league anymore, and by all reports was an issue in the locker room. A relatively minor one, but still an issue.

At least Iverson when he's not pouting can still ball.

[psychocim]

Iverson is a former league MVP.  Did we SEE the stephon marbury video debut this summer?  Give me a break.

[guava_wrench]

My question is if no contending team and only Memphis was willing to go after him in the offseason then why should we now?  I mean I know AI is only 2 years removed from having 26 PPG 7 APG and shooting 45% from the field on a good Denver team but that only a lottery team was willing to offer a contract not much more than the LLE this season is very telling.  

Here's the thing about Iverson that Iverson fans just will never get.

In 2007-08, Iverson shot 45.6% dished out 7.1 assists and scored 26.4 points per game. The Nuggets won 50 games and got boot out of the playoffs in the first round.

In 2008-09, after just a few games, the Nuggets traded Iverson for Chauncey Billups and Billups averaged 9 points per game less than Iverson(17.9), dished out 0.7 assists less than Iverson(6.4) and shot 3.8% points less than Iverson(42%). But the Nuggets won 54 games and took the Lakers to the brink in the Western Conference Finals.

So statistically the Nuggets replaced AI with a WORSE player and got BETTER!!!!

That's all one really has to know about Iverson. Oh, by the way, that's the second time that happened. When they shipped his sorry butt out of Philly, the same thing happened.

So Denver winning 54 games had nothing to do with Hilario coming back from injury, or the improved play of J.R. Smith or the reinstatement of Chris Anderson back into the NBA?

It was all just Chauncey Billups right?

Players improve when they play with a legitimate PG instead of a ball hog.

[Finkelskyhook]

Judging by what AI said in the papers, the stuff that nobody seems to pay attention to, is the fact if AI were in a winning situation he would be the "good soldier".

So I have confidence that if AI were explained his role off the Celtics bench, that he would have no issues and would cause zero problems for the squad.

   uncontrollably     

[nickagneta]

My question is if no contending team and only Memphis was willing to go after him in the offseason then why should we now?  I mean I know AI is only 2 years removed from having 26 PPG 7 APG and shooting 45% from the field on a good Denver team but that only a lottery team was willing to offer a contract not much more than the LLE this season is very telling.  

Here's the thing about Iverson that Iverson fans just will never get.

In 2007-08, Iverson shot 45.6% dished out 7.1 assists and scored 26.4 points per game. The Nuggets won 50 games and got boot out of the playoffs in the first round.

In 2008-09, after just a few games, the Nuggets traded Iverson for Chauncey Billups and Billups averaged 9 points per game less than Iverson(17.9), dished out 0.7 assists less than Iverson(6.4) and shot 3.8% points less than Iverson(42%). But the Nuggets won 54 games and took the Lakers to the brink in the Western Conference Finals.

So statistically the Nuggets replaced AI with a WORSE player and got BETTER!!!!

That's all one really has to know about Iverson. Oh, by the way, that's the second time that happened. When they shipped his sorry butt out of Philly, the same thing happened.

Chauncy was more efficient with the ball if you look at all the statistics nick, so no they didn't replace Iverson with a worse player. Cherry picking is fun, but ultimately futile. TS%, eFG%, and minutes played are all as important as the stats you mention.

Then you start to consider the fact that Chauncey is also a better defender than Iverson.

I still don't see what you are getting at. Cherry pick YOUR stats all you want the simple fact is Iverson scored a hell of a lot more points, dished out more assists, shot a better percentage, got the same amount of rebounds even though he is much smaller, got more steals, got to the FT line a whole hell of a lot more and played more minutes.

I judge those stats and I see Iverson in 2007-08 being the better player than Billups. Statistically. But the point I am making is that Iverson has always been an all for me type of player that racks up the stats to show how great he is. But intangibles count and so does the understanding of how to play within a system and how to make the team and others better.

Chauncey gets that and Iverson doesn't. So yes, of course, Chauncey is the better player. But statistically Iverson is and that's what Iverson apologists and AI himself don't get. It's better to be a team player that works the system and excels than a stat loving, ball hogging egotist that only makes every team he is ever on worse.

I love the Iverson apologists argument that he took his exact game and got to the Finals and won one whole game versus the Lakers. If he got "it". If he was a team oriented and not a me-oriented player, maybe they win that series. That's what Iverson apologists never seem to get. If he was a different style player maybe he has a couple rings like Isiah Thomas instead of an MVP trophy.

[Fafnir]

Nick, I never cherry picked. I gave you all the stats and highlight the ones that show how much more effiicent Billups was/is as a player.

Iverson only had 80 more assists in nearly 600 more minutes over the course of the season. He also turned it over 58 times more. He got to the line more, but he also scored less points per shot attempt, including all those FT attempts! His defense was much worse, and he played more minutes so his defense had more of an impact on the team.

Iverson's overall efficieny was below the rest of the Nuggets team as a whole. Billups coming and playing less minutes, and therefore taking less shots at a higher efficiency, helped the team.

Unless you only look at raw scoring and totals Iverson was/is not a better player than Billups. I don't need to get into your whole intangible rant to show that.

[nickagneta]

Nick, I never cherry picked. I gave you all the stats and highlight the ones that show how much more effiicent Billups was/is as a player.

Iverson only had 80 more assists in nearly 600 more minutes over the course of the season. He also turned it over 58 times more. He got to the line more, but he also scored less points per shot attempt, including all those FT attempts! His defense was much worse, and he played more minutes so his defense had more of an impact on the team.

Iverson's overall efficieny was below the rest of the Nuggets team as a whole. Billups coming and playing less minutes, and therefore taking less shots at a higher efficiency, helped the team.

Unless you only look at raw scoring and totals Iverson was/is not a better player than Billups. I don't need to get into your whole intangible rant to show that.

Obviously you're not getting what I am trying to point out. I AGREE with you Faf. But you are looking at detailed stat matrices not the easily available ones that players and the average fan runs to. The average fan or average AI fan doesn't run to the stat sheet discussing eFG% or TS% or PER or efficiency ratings or per minute stats. They throw out PPG, APG, RPG, SPG, BPG and use the old tried and true stats as a judging point.

I know Chauncey is a better player. You know Chauncey is a better player. The Hollinger and more modern statlines that you have brought up prove it. I get that. But the same way an AI apologist will argue til they are blue in the face over points and steals and assists without context and cherry pick those stats, you and I would pick the stats you bring up and cherry pick those for our argument statistically.

Personally, I say just watch an old Nuggets game with AI and watch a Nuggets game with Chauncey and throw the stats out. Stats be [dang]ed. Chauncey is the better basketball player in a team format. You don't need stats to see that, just your eyes.

[lJesterl]

I wouldb't mind seeing AI come here. Everyone forgets what kind of team we are. Kobe Bryant couldnt come in here and get away with anything. Our squad controls there team. Not any individual player.

[mgent]

My question is if no contending team and only Memphis was willing to go after him in the offseason then why should we now?  I mean I know AI is only 2 years removed from having 26 PPG 7 APG and shooting 45% from the field on a good Denver team but that only a lottery team was willing to offer a contract not much more than the LLE this season is very telling.  

Here's the thing about Iverson that Iverson fans just will never get.

In 2007-08, Iverson shot 45.6% dished out 7.1 assists and scored 26.4 points per game. The Nuggets won 50 games and got boot out of the playoffs in the first round.

In 2008-09, after just a few games, the Nuggets traded Iverson for Chauncey Billups and Billups averaged 9 points per game less than Iverson(17.9), dished out 0.7 assists less than Iverson(6.4) and shot 3.8% points less than Iverson(42%). But the Nuggets won 54 games and took the Lakers to the brink in the Western Conference Finals.

So statistically the Nuggets replaced AI with a WORSE player and got BETTER!!!!

That's all one really has to know about Iverson. Oh, by the way, that's the second time that happened. When they shipped his sorry butt out of Philly, the same thing happened.

So Denver winning 54 games had nothing to do with Hilario coming back from injury, or the improved play of J.R. Smith or the reinstatement of Chris Anderson back into the NBA?

It was all just Chauncey Billups right?

Players improve when they play with a legitimate PG instead of a ball hog.

Obviously.  They needed a strong PG who could run the offense (and play defense).  What they didn't need was a guy taking ball time away from Melo, when Melo was capable of taking the scoring load himself.

AI's game is designed to carry the team.  He becomes much less effective the less he has the ball (on a team with other talent).  Combine that with his lack of defense, and Chauncey Billups is a way better fit on a team like the Nuggets than AI.

[ToppersBsktball10]

Even off the bench he's a star factor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zc0ULZL4QU

[Finkelskyhook]

Even off the bench he's a star factor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zc0ULZL4QU

......and as always, they lost.  But who cares??  Certainly not the great warrior Iverson.

[LB3533]

Judging by what AI said in the papers, the stuff that nobody seems to pay attention to, is the fact if AI were in a winning situation he would be the "good soldier".

So I have confidence that if AI were explained his role off the Celtics bench, that he would have no issues and would cause zero problems for the squad.

Like in Detroit?

Those are hollow words. It is easy for him to claim all of that when he is not in that position.

If there were evidence of character, I might buy his nonsense.

What happened in Detroit?

Let's see, they didn't win when Allen started (22-28) and they didn't win when he was coming off the bench (13-15). So in Detroit, there was no "winning situation".

In Boston, even without KG last season, there was still a "winning" environment here for the Celtics.

Character is more left reserved for Nobel Peace Prizes and crap, basketball is basketball. Can he still play and help us?

But let's throw this excerpt on the pile for Iverson's character: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2009032908

Iverson said it was also an adjustment to come off the bench, something he has only done a handful of times in his career.

“With all the things I’ve done in my career, I knew it was going to be tough for me mentally to do this,” he said. “But the more I looked at the big picture—the idea of helping my teammates win games—the more the idea appealed to me.”

And: http://www.nba.com/nuggets/community/iverson_Wvillage_clinic_110307.html

[LB3533]

Also, lets get the facts straight here, Denver never needed Billups or a strong player from the PG position.

If they did, they would have just kept Andre Miller instead of trading him away for AI.

What the Nuggets needed was another star player and improved play from every other Nugget not named Carmelo Anthony.

Melo's game also regressed playing along side Billups last season. His scoring and efficiency went down playing along side Chauncey.

The two seasons playing along side AI, Melo's scoring was higher, his shooting efficiency was drastically higher (20 to 40 points higher in cases of TS% or eFG%), and Melo's Per was over 21 in both seasons with AI at his side, only 19 with Billups last year.

Now, I am not saying that Billups was bad for Melo. The truth is, when we look deeper, is that the Nuggets last season had better play from the whole team, across the board. Melo didn't need to do a heck of a lot more than he did. The previous 2 seasons, Melo and AI had to carry the load because they weren't getting production for whatever reason (injury or younger guys just not getting it done).