What I like about Shelden Williams

[Birdbrain]

Uh, I'll take Williams' defense over Davis' every day, along with his rebounding, intelligence and effort.

Poor Shelden. If he'd just been drafted by Ainge, he'd be worshipped by this board.

In the meantime, he's an outstanding acquisition who provides exactly what this team needs off the bench. Great, great move by Ainge.

If Ainge was drafting at that spot he would have never picked Sheldon.  Have you forgotten he couldn't get any minutes on Sacramento with their potent from line?  Maybe they were holding him back though.

The powe group have moved on to Williams.  This should make for a great debate....

[Fafnir]

Williams has been a good rebounder his entire career in whatever minutes he has played.  Baby has been below average rebounding the ball.  There is no comparison as far as rebounding goes.
And I agree with coachbo as far as having a big guy who concentrates on defense and rebounding as opposed to jump shooting.  But still it would be nice if Williams could catch passes and finish after getting offensive rebounds- things he is not good at.

You do know that it was the Celtics that wanted Davis to practice his shooting right? It was not just his decision to shoot jumpers.  And it did help them win a playoff game.  And this year, with the addition of Sheed they want him to play in the paint more. (All this is taken from an Ainge interview).

I agree, in his first season Baby rebounded well and scored in the paint.

No he didn't rebound well even as a rookie. He got plenty of offensive rebounds, but that's not the problem with BBD. He doesn't get enough rebounds on the defensive end.

He got 12.8% of available offensive boards and 13.5% of defensive boards as a rookie.

He got 9.4% of available offensive boards and 12.8% of defensive boards last year.

His offensive rebounding is respectable, but for a PF you have to get more defensive boards thant that!

[EJPLAYA]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

I don't think that anyone on here is naive enough to believe that BBD is a good rebounder or scorer in the low post though. This really ought to be about Williams looking more than capable to come in off the bench and help this team out when called upon. I think everyone is underestimating his outside shot though because he looks much better at it than people are giving him credit for. I for one think he brings as much to the table off the bench as BBD does just in different ways. Maybe he wouldn't be as seamless into the starting lineup like BBD was last year, however we can all agree that no one wants us to be in that situation anyway!

[mgent]

Davis is better than Sheldon offensively and defensively, by quite a bit.  I thought that was obvious.  Sheldon is clearly the better rebounder.

While Davis is a mediocre post defender, at least he can somewhat guard Centers.  Sheldon has no inside presence.  Neither of them are what we want them to be (Leon Powe).  They just aren't strong post players, offensively or defensively, which is exactly what we need to compliment Rasheed.  While Sheldon has the advantage in rebounding, Davis is better at pretty much everything else, and can backup 2 positions.  Davis is a serviceable 4th big, Sheldon isn't.

I've never been that high on Davis.  In light of his injury I really wish we had S%Ted him.  He's a WAY toned down Rasheed and he doesn't deserve to get any of his minutes.  Honestly what does he bring to the table that Rasheed doesn't?  He's slower, shorter, a worse shooter, a worse rebounder, a worse shot-blocker, a worse all-around defensive player, and has less range.

Sheldon's rebounding gives him a better case for minutes, but he's simply not a good enough player.

[the_Bird]

Really, we're talking about two very different players, both of whom have a role on this team.

Sherwin-Williams is not someone that is going to draw the opposition's big men out of the paint, unless (like GD) he begins to hit that 18' jumper with some consistency.  Doc has talked about Williams potentially being a guy who can play the pick-and-pop game; he's not considered a great shooter, but he's nailed a few from the elbow and looked pretty good at it.  Still, it's unrealistic to expect that he'll be able to keep the middle cleared out a la GD (and KG, and 'Sheed).  

But, the minutes that he gets, I imagine he'll mostly be playing with Eddie, Quisy, 'Sheed, and Pierce/Ray - outside of Quisy, a lot of shooters.  You won't see him play next to Perk very often.  So, I don't think his lack of an outside game will hurt us that much (he's got to work on catching the [dang] ball, though).

In the end, I guess I'm aboard the Sheldon Williams bandwagon.  Knowing all of his limitations, he looks like a legit rotation player.  More fundamentally, I've seen it happen a lot more often that a big man develops a jump shot rather than a big man learns to rebound.  While I can't prove it, sure seems like big men who don't rebound in their early seasons never turn into good rebounders later on in their careers, while it's not all that uncommon to see a big man who can't shoot develop a respectable outside shot (hell, that's what Davis did).  

If Sherwin can keep working on that jumper, he can develop into a respectable all-around player, whereas I am quite skeptical that Davis will ever be able to grab rebounds at an acceptable rate.  Doesn't mean that he doesn't have a place in the league or on this team, just that I don't see Davis as being able to develop into an all-around player.  

[BudweiserCeltic]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

Can I say "wow"? The extent some people go to discredit someone...

[Fafnir]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

Uh that happens will all players. Travis Outlaw for example got three offensive boards on one sequence last night from what I saw. To say that has a skewing effect on a season's worth of rebounding statistics is ridiculous.

Especially when BBD's inside shot percentage is 55.9%, he got blocked on 12% of his attempts. Powe's was 59.6% and he was blocked 12% of the time.

BBD isn't a great finisher but he's not as horrible as some make him out to be.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Davis is better than Sheldon offensively and defensively, by quite a bit.  I thought that was obvious.  Sheldon is clearly the better rebounder.

While Davis is a mediocre post defender, at least he can somewhat guard Centers.  Sheldon has no inside presence.  Neither of them are what we want them to be (Leon Powe).  They just aren't strong post players, offensively or defensively, which is exactly what we need to compliment Rasheed.  While Sheldon has the advantage in rebounding, Davis is better at pretty much everything else, and can backup 2 positions.  Davis is a serviceable 4th big, Sheldon isn't.

I've never been that high on Davis.  In light of his injury I really wish we had S%Ted him.  He's a WAY toned down Rasheed and he doesn't deserve to get any of his minutes.  Honestly what does he bring to the table that Rasheed doesn't?  He's slower, shorter, a worse shooter, a worse rebounder, a worse shot-blocker, a worse all-around defensive player, and has less range.

Sheldon's rebounding gives him a better case for minutes, but he's simply not a good enough player.

Uhhh no.  I haven't watched enough of Sheldon to see how quickly he rotates, but BBD was awful at that.  BBD's only quality D was 1 on 1 with a slow but strong defender.  One thing I have seen about Sheldon's defense that I like is his ability to handle a player who has penetrated the paint.  So far I give the defensive nod to Sheldon.  

If Sheldon's shot is supposedly so poor, then why is considered a better FT shooter than BBD?  

[Fafnir]

If Sheldon's shot is supposedly so poor, then why is considered a better FT shooter than BBD?  

Because free throw shooting is a completely different skill than jump shooting.

Also Sheldon isn't just a bad jump shooter, he's also terrible at making inside shots. He shoots an awful percentage from everywhere.

[EJPLAYA]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

Can I say "wow"? The extent some people go to discredit someone...

When a guy is doing this 2 or more times each game because of his inefficiency around the basket, that is going to add at least one rebound per game across the season, if not 1.5. Considering he only averages a paltry 3.5 rebounds per game in his career, that is about 1/3rd of his boards coming from his weakness around the rim. That is a major factor in his stats.

I'm not trying to discredit him per se rather back up comments that some here seem to have trouble admitting to. They are trying to downgrade Williams contribution by stating BBD is the all around perfect PF when he has some pretty hefty flaws no one wants to admit. If everything you "pro-BBD" guys were saying about him were true he would have had offers lining up around the block this past offseason instead of NO ONE giving him an offer except our low ball offer which he had no choice but to take. If you want to continue to make this kid out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread go ahead, but I'll side with the GM's around the league who didn't think he was worth a contract offer. Ask yourself this. Have we truly noticed any difference at all with Shelden in their this year? His 8 ppg and 6 rebounds on 50% shooting and 80% free throws say no. Maybe he can't continue scoring as well as he has been, however there is nothing to suggest that he can't continue to rebound  well for us which is what you want out there. When you have Sheed, House, Daniels, and typically one of the starters out there with him that is EXACTLY what you want out of that spot.

Continue to focus on BBD all your want, however look at the title of the thread and decide why  you can't give the guy some props...

[the_Bird]

Also Sheldon isn't just a bad jump shooter, he's also terrible at making inside shots. He shoots an awful percentage from everywhere.

The question in my mind is whether he's irrepairably bad a shooter, or whether he can get better.  Shooting prowess in many ways is a confidence game.  We saw BBD go from being one of the worst shooting big men in the league early last season to being quite good by the time the playoffs rolled around.  I certainly do not expect that Sherwin will show that dramatic a turnaround, but Doc has spoken well of his shooting and it's not like he's Ben Wallace out there.  I have confidence that he can become a decent shooter, at least good enough to where he can stay on the floor for 15-20 minutes without killing us.

My expectations aren't that high!

[BudweiserCeltic]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

Can I say "wow"? The extent some people go to discredit someone...

When a guy is doing this 2 or more times each game because of his inefficiency around the basket, that is going to add at least one rebound per game across the season, if not 1.5. Considering he only averages a paltry 3.5 rebounds per game in his career, that is about 1/3rd of his boards coming from his weakness around the rim. That is a major factor in his stats.

What you're describing is normal occurance in the NBA, particularly with big men, particularly with TALL players. Davis is a good offensive rebounder, there's no need to rationalize it. He's shown to be just as good when grabbing someone else's misses.

I'm not trying to discredit him per se rather back up comments that some here seem to have trouble admitting to. They are trying to downgrade Williams contribution by stating BBD is the all around perfect PF when he has some pretty hefty flaws no one wants to admit.

Ah, they're trying to downgrade Williams, just as you've been trying to downgrade Baby to make Williams better? I think it evens out. He does have some flaws, but not to the extent you're making it out to be. In all, Davis is a better all-around player, there's no ifs and buts about it. He just is at the moment. People were laughing at the Williams addition during preseason when he was having some bad games. He has some solid games (one against the laughable Bobcats) and suddenly he's clearly above Baby.

Baby has shown plenty during the last 10 months or so, and even during the playoffs that he's a skillful solid player. With deficiencies? Sure, but lets not downplay his contributions either.

Williams has no such track record to give him the credit he's getting.

If everything you "pro-BBD" guys were saying about him were true he would have had offers lining up around the block this past offseason instead of NO ONE giving him an offer except our low ball offer which he had no choice but to take.

This is simply a lack of understanding of how free-agency works and on how this particular free-agent class behaved.

Yet, it was Williams with the minimum contract offer.

If you want to continue to make this kid out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread go ahead, but I'll side with the GM's around the league who didn't think he was worth a contract offer.

I've done no such thing. In fact, I really don't have much motivation to embellish him since I think he's phony. I think he does have some skills on the basketball court... all I'm looking is for an accurate depiction of his level of play. Nothing else.

Ask yourself this. Have we truly noticed any difference at all with Shelden in their this year? His 8 ppg and 6 rebounds on 50% shooting and 80% free throws say no. Maybe he can't continue scoring as well as he has been, however there is nothing to suggest that he can't continue to rebound  well for us which is what you want out there. When you have Sheed, House, Daniels, and typically one of the starters out there with him that is EXACTLY what you want out of that spot.

This is not a black and white thing. Again, Bobcats. Whose to say Davis wouldn't have destroyed them also? He did it during the playoffs when it really counted.

Continue to focus on BBD all your want, however look at the title of the thread and decide why  you can't give the guy some props...

I'm not focusing on anything, I wasn't the one that brought up Davis. My contributions to this thread so far have been "Davis is clutch" and my response to your post above. In fact I've liked what I've seen from Williams, and it's very encouraging, but there's ZERO reason to start talking crap about Davis' game which is unwarranted and inaccurate in many instances.

Overall Davis had quite a successful preseason, showing his new/improved baby hook which will help him a ton against taller defenders. Something that Davis has shown so far throughout his career is addition of skills and overall constant improvement.

Williams in his previous 3 years has shown very very little. I think the Davis deserves, if anything, the benefit of the doubt before Williams.

Let me just say this, I was very happy when we signed Williams and I'm hopeful that he can continue playing solid basketball for us, and improving as the year continues. But just as you want people to accept Davis flaws, how about you do the same with Williams? He's also quite a flawed player.

[BballTim]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

  The old "Moses Malone" trick..

[the_Bird]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

  The old "Moses Malone" trick..

Not Ricky Davis? 

[EJPLAYA]

BBD's offensive rebounding stats are padded which makes his overall rebounding #'s even more pitiful for a PF since many of his offensive rebounds were off of his own missed followup's off the first one. Countless times he took 2-3 shots after an offensive rebound. That's great that he was able to have another attempt, but it's a lot easier for the person shooting to get that second and third board than the person trying to prevent him from scoring.

Can I say "wow"? The extent some people go to discredit someone...

When a guy is doing this 2 or more times each game because of his inefficiency around the basket, that is going to add at least one rebound per game across the season, if not 1.5. Considering he only averages a paltry 3.5 rebounds per game in his career, that is about 1/3rd of his boards coming from his weakness around the rim. That is a major factor in his stats.

What you're describing is normal occurance in the NBA, particularly with big men, particularly with TALL players. Davis is a good offensive rebounder, there's no need to rationalize it. He's shown to be just as good when grabbing someone else's misses.

I'm not trying to discredit him per se rather back up comments that some here seem to have trouble admitting to. They are trying to downgrade Williams contribution by stating BBD is the all around perfect PF when he has some pretty hefty flaws no one wants to admit.

Ah, they're trying to downgrade Williams, just as you've been trying to downgrade Baby to make Williams better? I think it evens out. He does have some flaws, but not to the extent you're making it out to be. In all, Davis is a better all-around player, there's no ifs and buts about it. He just is at the moment. People were laughing at the Williams addition during preseason when he was having some bad games. He has some solid games (one against the laughable Bobcats) and suddenly he's clearly above Baby.

Baby has shown plenty during the last 10 months or so, and even during the playoffs that he's a skillful solid player. With deficiencies? Sure, but lets not downplay his contributions either.

Williams has no such track record to give him the credit he's getting.

If everything you "pro-BBD" guys were saying about him were true he would have had offers lining up around the block this past offseason instead of NO ONE giving him an offer except our low ball offer which he had no choice but to take.

This is simply a lack of understanding of how free-agency works and on how this particular free-agent class behaved.

Yet, it was Williams with the minimum contract offer.

If you want to continue to make this kid out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread go ahead, but I'll side with the GM's around the league who didn't think he was worth a contract offer.

I've done no such thing. In fact, I really don't have much motivation to embellish him since I think he's phony. I think he does have some skills on the basketball court... all I'm looking is for an accurate depiction of his level of play. Nothing else.

Ask yourself this. Have we truly noticed any difference at all with Shelden in their this year? His 8 ppg and 6 rebounds on 50% shooting and 80% free throws say no. Maybe he can't continue scoring as well as he has been, however there is nothing to suggest that he can't continue to rebound  well for us which is what you want out there. When you have Sheed, House, Daniels, and typically one of the starters out there with him that is EXACTLY what you want out of that spot.

This is not a black and white thing. Again, Bobcats. Whose to say Davis wouldn't have destroyed them also? He did it during the playoffs when it really counted.

Continue to focus on BBD all your want, however look at the title of the thread and decide why  you can't give the guy some props...

I'm not focusing on anything, I wasn't the one that brought up Davis. My contributions to this thread so far have been "Davis is clutch" and my response to your post above. In fact I've liked what I've seen from Williams, and it's very encouraging, but there's ZERO reason to start talking crap about Davis' game which is unwarranted and inaccurate in many instances.

Overall Davis had quite a successful preseason, showing his new/improved baby hook which will help him a ton against taller defenders. Something that Davis has shown so far throughout his career is addition of skills and overall constant improvement.

Williams in his previous 3 years has shown very very little. I think the Davis deserves, if anything, the benefit of the doubt before Williams.

Let me just say this, I was very happy when we signed Williams and I'm hopeful that he can continue playing solid basketball for us, and improving as the year continues. But just as you want people to accept Davis flaws, how about you do the same with Williams? He's also quite a flawed player.

3.5 rebounds per game doesn't allow him to be considered a good offensive rebounder by any stretch considering at least a portion of those are defensive.

BBD does have some skills which I have given him credit for in many many threads, however his core skill deficiency at the position he plays make him at best serviceable. If we were discussing a two guard and the comment was he is a clutch outside shooter but not much else then you'd have a point. Since he's a PF that doesn't really travel very far.

Williams on the other hand is a guy who has upside and unrealized potential that fills the role off the bench this team needs. It's about fitting the right pieces in there to be successful. What good is an outside shooting PF with the squad he'd be playing with. If an outside shot is taken I'd much rather have Sheed or House take it and quite honestly Williams shooting percentage suggests he'd be about as good at it as BBD.

Boy people sure make a big deal about one game winning field goal… I had a couple of those in my younger days and I sure wish they had elevated me to the reputation that BBD has!