If doc is a good coach why does he do this?

[indyceltic]

I think Doc better sit KG, Ray and PP on Friday.  They have already logged way too many minutes already this year!  

[nickagneta]

Question:  how many of the "it's okay, Ray asked to stay in" folks were criticizing Grady Little when he left in Pedro to melt down against the Yankees, because Pedro wanted to stay in the game?

Coaches are supposed to regulate minutes.  And yes, if people choose to ignore the past two seasons and focus only on the first two games, it's a small sample size.  However, people have 150+ games to judge on, not two.

Ray Allen should not be playing 38+ minutes on back-to-back nights, period.  This is especially true when we have a 30 point lead in the third quarter. 

Gee did Grady Little leave Pedro in after an entire season and two playoff rounds or after his first start Roy? Apples and oranges.

[crownsy]

okay so now all the detractors have shifted gear and changed their arguments to "doc shouldntve listened to ray" from "what was doc thinking putting ray in for no reason"

It's the same argument:  Ray played too many minutes, regardless of the reasoning.

Right, it is easier to defend an stance when you don't take any other factors into account, and simply blame one person/factor.

If only civ pro were so easy, im dying for some bright line tests  

[Roy Hobbs]

Question:  how many of the "it's okay, Ray asked to stay in" folks were criticizing Grady Little when he left in Pedro to melt down against the Yankees, because Pedro wanted to stay in the game?

Let's see - player wants to stay in to get into a regular season groove with a 26 pt lead against a bad team in the 2nd game of the season, player wants to stay in against a very dangerous archrival with a 3 run lead in Game 7 of the ALCS...yup, perfect analogy, no relevant differences here  

The basic concept is the same:  coaches need to do what's best for the team.  If Ray had blown out a knee because he's playing meaningless minutes, nobody would be saying "yeah, but he wanted to stay in to work on his shot".

Playing extra minutes -- especially on back-to-back nights -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me, when you're talking about your 34+ year old shooting guard who has had injury issues the past two seasons, and who has been less effective in the post-season two years running.

[kozlodoev]

Question:  how many of the "it's okay, Ray asked to stay in" folks were criticizing Grady Little when he left in Pedro to melt down against the Yankees, because Pedro wanted to stay in the game?

On the other hand, if Ray is in a condition where he'll melt down from playing 90 minutes in the first two games of the season, we might as well ship him out of town tomorrow for a bag of peanuts and the cap relief.

I am much more concerned about Pierce playing extended minutes, since he's the one who looks gassed in the end of games. Ray is Ray no matter whether he's played 40 or 25 minutes the night before.

[MattG12]

I can't believe this thread is still active.

[Roy Hobbs]

Question:  how many of the "it's okay, Ray asked to stay in" folks were criticizing Grady Little when he left in Pedro to melt down against the Yankees, because Pedro wanted to stay in the game?

On the other hand, if Ray is in a condition where he'll melt down from playing 90 minutes in the first two games of the season, we might as well ship him out of town tomorrow for a bag of peanuts and the cap relief.

To be clear, it's not necessarily two games I'm worried about (although, again, it makes no sense to leave your starters out there for potential injuries when you don't need to).  Rather, I'm concerned about the trend that Doc has shown of running Ray into the ground.  It's not a new thing.

[kozlodoev]

The basic concept is the same:  coaches need to do what's best for the team.  If Ray had blown out a knee because he's playing meaningless minutes, nobody would be saying "yeah, but he wanted to stay in to work on his shot".

If Ray had blown a knee in the first minute of the game, it wouldn't have been any different -- or should we keep him in the training room until the playoffs, to save him for the important games.

Playing extra minutes -- especially on back-to-back nights -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me, when you're talking about your 34+ year old shooting guard who has had injury issues the past two seasons, and who has been less effective in the post-season two years running.

What injury issues did Allen have last season?!

[kozlodoev]

To be clear, it's not necessarily two games I'm worried about (although, again, it makes no sense to leave your starters out there for potential injuries when you don't need to).  Rather, I'm concerned about the trend that Doc has shown of running Ray into the ground.  It's not a new thing.

Yet despite this Ray had a career season last year. Go figure.

[crownsy]

I can't believe this thread is still active.

Amen to that, i'm off to bed, night all.

[Roy Hobbs]

The basic concept is the same:  coaches need to do what's best for the team.  If Ray had blown out a knee because he's playing meaningless minutes, nobody would be saying "yeah, but he wanted to stay in to work on his shot".

If Ray had blown a knee in the first minute of the game, it wouldn't have been any different -- or should we keep him in the training room until the playoffs, to save him for the important games.

This one isn't even a good straw man.  There's absolutely no reason to play a player 38+ minutes in a 30 point blowout, especially on back to back nights.  Injury risk may be minimal, but it's a heck of a lot greater than it is if Ray was on the bench, where he should have been.

Playing extra minutes -- especially on back-to-back nights -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me, when you're talking about your 34+ year old shooting guard who has had injury issues the past two seasons, and who has been less effective in the post-season two years running.

What injury issues did Allen have last season?!

Ray had a hamstring injury in the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

Question:  how many of the "it's okay, Ray asked to stay in" folks were criticizing Grady Little when he left in Pedro to melt down against the Yankees, because Pedro wanted to stay in the game?

On the other hand, if Ray is in a condition where he'll melt down from playing 90 minutes in the first two games of the season, we might as well ship him out of town tomorrow for a bag of peanuts and the cap relief.

To be clear, it's not necessarily two games I'm worried about (although, again, it makes no sense to leave your starters out there for potential injuries when you don't need to).  Rather, I'm concerned about the trend that Doc has shown of running Ray into the ground.  It's not a new thing.

Apparently you missed the post where I explained away the number of games you mentioned or the other post which showed the Ray is playing significantly less of those type of games than he has ever played in his career.

But go ahead. Keep insisting there is some trend.

In 2007-08 after the first 15 games Ray played only 20 games of 38+ minutes after that in the remaining 64 games he played in. That's a very low percentage.

In 2008-09 other than those 14 games in 30, Ray played only 19 of those games out of the remaining 43 games he played in and a very small amount leading up to the playoffs both years where he played terrifically except when he was hurt.

He tweaked a hammy last year, that's why he had a bad Orlando series. It wasn't because he was tired.

[Rondo_is_better]

To be clear, it's not necessarily two games I'm worried about (although, again, it makes no sense to leave your starters out there for potential injuries when you don't need to).  Rather, I'm concerned about the trend that Doc has shown of running Ray into the ground.  It's not a new thing.

Yet despite this Ray had a career season last year. Go figure.

What made last year a career season for Ray...

his assists, steals, rebounds, and points were all below his career averages.

[Roy Hobbs]

To be clear, it's not necessarily two games I'm worried about (although, again, it makes no sense to leave your starters out there for potential injuries when you don't need to).  Rather, I'm concerned about the trend that Doc has shown of running Ray into the ground.  It's not a new thing.

Yet despite this Ray had a career season last year. Go figure.

Yeah, Ray had a tremendous finish to the season, too, shooting 38.1% in April, followed by a playoffs where he shot 40.3%.  Go figure.

[RAcker]

I think the starter minutes will all even out and they'll all be in the low 30's.  That is the goal and I think it will be okay...especially when we can pulverize some teams like tonight.