Can a Dynasty last or are all sports dynasties doomed to die out eventually?

[Rondo2287]

From an article on ESPN.com.  They gave the patriots a decided edge over the Bears.  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=paolantonio_sal&id=3107054


1985 Bears

A panel of experts assembled by NFL Films last year ranked this 15-1 Bears team the second-best ever. Their 15 wins came by an average score of 29-11, none by fewer than six points. They finished the season first in points and yards allowed and made a total mockery of the postseason, shutting out the New York Giants in the divisional playoffs and the Los Angeles Rams in the NFC Championship Game, then mauling the Patriots in Super Bowl XX, 46-10 -- at the time the most lopsided Super Bowl ever.

Walter Payton
Scott Cunningham/Getty ImagesWalter Payton and the 1985 Bears had only one loss and weren't seriously challenged in the playoffs.

The Bears allowed 12.4 points per game. This Pats team is on a pace that's not that far off -- 16.3 points per game. The Bears' point differential is higher right now, 258 to the Patriots' 208.

But when you look at the quarterbacks the Bears faced that season -- especially in the Super Bowl run -- and compare them with this year's Patriots, there are some legitimate questions to be raised.

That Bears team lost to Dan Marino, who finished the season with a quarterback rating of 84.1. They beat Montana, who finished third in the league in passing that year. They didn't face a quarterback with a rating over 100.

The 2007 Patriots have already beaten two quarterbacks with a rating in triple digits -- Tony Romo and Peyton Manning. In beating Dallas and Indianapolis, they've already taken down the No. 1 offense in the NFC and the second-ranked offense in the AFC.

And in embarrassing the Rams in the 1985 NFC Championship Game, the Bears beat L.A. quarterback Dieter Brock, who played exactly one NFL season -- 1985. And then they tormented Tony Eason and Steve Grogan in the Super Bowl.

This Pats team could see Manning and Romo again in the postseason.

The Bears had the intrepid, great Hall of Famer Walter Payton, who put in a season that defined his career -- even if he was ignored in the Super Bowl.

But here's what settles the argument: Would you rather line up with Brady or Jim McMahon? Edge: decidedly Patriots.

[Fafnir]

I remember that article. I don't think its an unreasonable position to hold, but remember they hadn't played the post-season yet.

(Also the QB rating thing is silly, the rules have changed to help the passing game immensely. Part of the problem comparing eras again.)

In the post-season they played several close games and lost in the SB, that will forever hurt their legacy. No getting around that.

[Donoghus]

It's all hypothetical and you can find analysts and arm-chair observers who will argue until their red in the face for both sides.

To me, and I think it's the case with many observers of sports, you can't dub a team the greatest of all-time if they didn't win the title...period.  Winning a title or not winning a title is an undisputable fact that is an extremely important component to use in any sports-related arguement.  It's something that actually happened and there is no speculation. It's concrete, not an opinion.  You can pull out all the articles you want but its not going to defeat that undeniable fact.  

[Rondo2287]

Well I guess just agree to disagree.  Ill take Tom Brady in the playoffs over any quarterback, but thats just me I guess.  

And I repeat, my statement was you can argue the fact that the 07 patriots are the best team of all time. 

as you admit, dons, "you can find analysts and arm-chair observers who will argue until their red in the face for both sides."

So its an arguable point, this really wasnt the point of the thread, but it got taken here.  And im glad that we can all agree that you can argue that the 07 pats are the best team of all time.  I respect your opinions that they arent, and all i ask is that you respect mine. 

[Fafnir]

Well I guess just agree to disagree.  Ill take Tom Brady in the playoffs over any quarterback, but thats just me I guess.  

And I repeat, my statement was you can argue the fact that the 07 patriots are the best team of all time. 

as you admit, dons, "you can find analysts and arm-chair observers who will argue until their red in the face for both sides."

So its an arguable point, this really wasnt the point of the thread, but it got taken here.  And im glad that we can all agree that you can argue that the 07 pats are the best team of all time.  I respect your opinions that they arent, and all i ask is that you respect mine. 

No I don't think you can Rondo, I think you can argue they could beat any team.

But when you don't win a title you're disqualified from "the greatest" discussion. And what you said is: "OK and I think Tom Brady SuperBowl Shuffles all over the bears face". A little different.

You're a fan, you think they're the greatest ever. But if you ask Tom Brady, what do you think he'd say? I bet he'd say the goal is to win the SB, the rest is just window dressing...

[Donoghus]

Well I guess just agree to disagree.  Ill take Tom Brady in the playoffs over any quarterback, but thats just me I guess.  

And I repeat, my statement was you can argue the fact that the 07 patriots are the best team of all time. 

as you admit, dons, "you can find analysts and arm-chair observers who will argue until their red in the face for both sides."

So its an arguable point, this really wasnt the point of the thread, but it got taken here.  And im glad that we can all agree that you can argue that the 07 pats are the best team of all time.  I respect your opinions that they arent, and all i ask is that you respect mine. 

I was referring to the idea that you can find people who can argue both sides of who would win between the '85 Bears & '07 Patriots.  You can find people who can argue both sides of ANY issue.  Just because someone might argue that the '08 Lions are better than the '08 Steelers doesn't mean its a legitimate argument, IMO.

I'm not buying it for a minute that someone can argue that a football team that DIDN'T WIN THE TITLE can lay claim to being the greatest team of all time. I'm not agreeing with the fact that you can argue it.  To me, and many others, the argument starts with titles and works its way out from there.  Since the Patriots didn't win the title that year, you can't hold them in that same regard. Plain and simple to me. 

Now if you want to argue about greatest REGULAR SEASON of all-time, then certainly the Patriots are in that discussion. 

I'm leaving it at that on this issue.

[indeedproceed]

Titles are kinda key....

[Rondo2287]

Well the Patriots managed to do something that none of those teams that you have mentioned could do and thats go 16-0 in the regular season.  There was a reason that no other team in history had done it.  And i dont really get why you arent buying that somebody can argue it since Im doing it right now.  And again, each of those teams lost one game during their seasons the patriots happened to lose the last one, and that sucked as a pats fan, however. Looking at the total body of work I would say the 07 patriots are the best team of all time.  And your right its all hypothetical, and the Patriots did not win the superbowl, but you still cannot find a single team that is definitively better than the 07 patriots.  And thats what it comes down too, thats what enables me to argue the point.  

[Fafnir]

Well the Patriots managed to do something that none of those teams that you have mentioned could do and thats go 16-0 in the regular season.  There was a reason that no other team in history had done it.  And i dont really get why you arent buying that somebody can argue it since Im doing it right now.  And again, each of those teams lost one game during their seasons the patriots happened to lose the last one, and that sucked as a pats fan, however. Looking at the total body of work I would say the 07 patriots are the best team of all time.  And your right its all hypothetical, and the Patriots did not win the superbowl, but you still cannot find a single team that is definitively better than the 07 patriots.  And thats what it comes down too, thats what enables me to argue the point.  

You can argue anything though Rondo, just the act of making an argument doesn't mean that both are equally valid...

And I think any team that wins the SB has a claim to being a better team than the 07 Patriots. The Giants were the best team after all at the end.

[Rondo2287]

I know that I can argue anything, and just because you dont agree with me doesnt make my point invalid.  To say a team that went 16-0 The only team to do so, the team with the most prolific offense in NFL history, who came 2 minutes away from the only undefeated season in the history of the NFL(since they upped the games)doesnt belong in the same class as another team who lost one game is insane to me.   

[nickagneta]

I'm siding with Faf, Dons and IP on this one and I'm one of th biggest Pats fans you are ever going to find. If you don't win it all in that year, you can be in the discussion for best team ever. Honestly, I don't think the 2007 Patriots were even the best Pats team of all-time. I would go with the 2003 or 2004 team and of the teams that didn't win a championship I would have to go with the 1976 team that ran for nearly 3000 yards in 14 games and played a hellacious schedule to go 11-3 only to get screwed by referee Ben Dreith in the playoffs

[star18]

Hey the 1985 Bears were amazing I want footage of that monday night game against Marino and the Dolphins, but the greatest defense of all-time is the 1977 ATLANTA FALCONS GRITZ BLITZ BABY!!!!  Allowed 129 points (9.2/g), 1st of ALL-TIME!!! 

Look at the names on this defense Claude Humphrey, Jim Bailey, Mike Lewis, Jeff Merrow, Robert Pennywell, Fulton Kuykendall, Ralph Ortega, Greg Brezina, Rolland Lawrence, Rick Byas, Ray Brown, Ray Easterling.   Every one of those players is in the Hall of Fame, oops I meant NFL.   Well you know what I'm saying who wants to go up against that defense with Jerry Glanville as defensive coordinator.  They used to put 13 guys up on the line of scrimmage!!!   Gritz Blitz every play baby!! They only allowed more than 10 points in a game 4 times all season (14,16,21,23).  Now that is some defense.

[star18]

Healthy Garnett on Celtics=Dynasty.

[nickagneta]

Hey the 1985 Bears were amazing I want footage of that monday night game against Marino and the Dolphins, but the greatest defense of all-time is the 1977 ATLANTA FALCONS GRITZ BLITZ BABY!!!!  Allowed 129 points (9.2/g), 1st of ALL-TIME!!! 

Look at the names on this defense Claude Humphrey, Jim Bailey, Mike Lewis, Jeff Merrow, Robert Pennywell, Fulton Kuykendall, Ralph Ortega, Greg Brezina, Rolland Lawrence, Rick Byas, Ray Brown, Ray Easterling.   Every one of those players is in the Hall of Fame, oops I meant NFL.   Well you know what I'm saying who wants to go up against that defense with Jerry Glanville as defensive coordinator.  They used to put 13 guys up on the line of scrimmage!!!   Gritz Blitz every play baby!! They only allowed more than 10 points in a game 4 times all season (14,16,21,23).  Now that is some defense.

We are talking about the 77 Falcons right? The 7-7 Falcons who's defense was so good it didn't even get to play a playoff game? The defense that 3 times that year gave up more than 200 yards rushing in a game and consistently gave up over 100 yards rushing a game?

A very good defense that was statistically that good because teams knew they didn't have a very good rushing defense and a horrible offense that couldn't score. So teams ran the ball on them all year long and beat them that way because opening up the offense to score big points versus them was not necessary. Score 10 points versus that Falcons team and you won the game.

[Fafnir]

Hey the 1985 Bears were amazing I want footage of that monday night game against Marino and the Dolphins, but the greatest defense of all-time is the 1977 ATLANTA FALCONS GRITZ BLITZ BABY!!!!  Allowed 129 points (9.2/g), 1st of ALL-TIME!!! 

Look at the names on this defense Claude Humphrey, Jim Bailey, Mike Lewis, Jeff Merrow, Robert Pennywell, Fulton Kuykendall, Ralph Ortega, Greg Brezina, Rolland Lawrence, Rick Byas, Ray Brown, Ray Easterling.   Every one of those players is in the Hall of Fame, oops I meant NFL.   Well you know what I'm saying who wants to go up against that defense with Jerry Glanville as defensive coordinator.  They used to put 13 guys up on the line of scrimmage!!!   Gritz Blitz every play baby!! They only allowed more than 10 points in a game 4 times all season (14,16,21,23).  Now that is some defense.

We are talking about the 77 Falcons right? The 7-7 Falcons who's defense was so good it didn't even get to play a playoff game? The defense that 3 times that year gave up more than 200 yards rushing in a game and consistently gave up over 100 yards rushing a game?

A very good defense that was statistically that good because teams knew they didn't have a very good rushing defense and a horrible offense that couldn't score. So teams ran the ball on them all year long and beat them that way because opening up the offense to score big points versus them was not necessary. Score 10 points versus that Falcons team and you won the game.

Have to agree Nick, 77 Falcons aren't even close to the SB Ravens or SB Bears defenses.