What you see is what you get

[gar]

While I would love to keep the core intact for the "window", Danny has acknowledged that they stuck with Bird, McHale and Parish trio too long. Also are we talking about KG's window or Allen's window. They may not be the same. Would be difficult unless someone decides they want to finish as a Celtic and takes a big pay cut. I think they would have to respect that. The free agent market next year could also reshape the league dramatically. So I would not rule out major additions.

[gar]

While I would love to keep the core intact for the "window", Danny has acknowledged that they stuck with Bird, McHale and Parish trio too long. Also are we talking about KG's window or Allen's window. They may not be the same. Would be difficult unless someone decides they want to finish as a Celtic and takes a big pay cut. I think they would have to respect that. The free agent market next year could also reshape the league dramatically. So I would not rule out major changes; but think a lot will depend on if they are able to renegotiate Ray Allen's contract to maintain cap flexibility, otherwise they may have to trade him.

[mgent]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

I really don't think they negate first of all.  I see the first thing as 2 good players turning into absolutely nothing whereas the second thing is 2 good players turning into 2 great players.  PJ, Sam, Posey, and Leon vs. Rasheed and Daniels can be argued forever, but I still think the 08 bench was slightly better and certainly deeper.  I think our team about evens out given the improvements in Rondo, but the other teams have gotten better.  And our 08 team took 26 games win the championship to begin with.

[nickagneta]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

I really don't think they negate first of all.  I see the first thing as 2 good players turning into absolutely nothing whereas the second thing is 2 good players turning into 2 great players.  PJ, Sam, Posey, and Leon vs. Rasheed and Daniels can be argued forever, but I still think the 08 bench was slightly better and certainly deeper.  I think our team about evens out given the improvements in Rondo, but the other teams have gotten better.  And our 08 team took 26 games win the championship to begin with.

Sheldon Williams is far from nothing and since we are talking a 2008 leon Powe here, he would have to replace 8 PPG and 4 RPG over 56 games because Leon was sat so often because he was ineffective at the beginning of the year. Let's stop painting the 2008 Leon into some sort of All-Star. At the beginning of that year he was highly inconsistent. Also, Powe was not a very good defender for most of 2008.

Williams is also not the best defender but he's not awful. Also he has better or similar PER40 rounding numbers than Leon. And since we are talking the 10th man on the bench, I don't see Williams being nothing. I would say he's fairly even with the 2008 version of Leon Powe and probably would contribute mountains more than the 2010 version of Leon Powe because Leon may never play ever again.

Also, Sam may have been a good player in his time and helped tremendously in winning a couple or three playoff games but his total contributions that year to the Celtics were equal to that of a very bad player. Sam didn't contribute 1996-2006 Sam Cassell basketball to the Celtics. He contributed old, washed up and barely useful Sam Cassell basketball to the Celtics. The upgrade to Daniels will be huge and all year long not the last 1/4 of the season.

Likewise for PJ Brown. He contributed towards some big wins in the playoffs but let's not confuse the version of PJ Brown we got with that of the player from a decade earlier. Wallace, likewise will be at the end of his rope but he will be here the whole year not 40 games total including the playoffs and he is a much better player even in his later years.

I'll give you Posey over Walker. But as a whole Posey, Sam, Brown and Leon are about a push this year for the Rasheed, Daniels, Williams and Walker replacements and maybe a slight advantage for the 2010 players if only because they will be here the whole year rather than the final 1/4 to 1/3 of the year like two of the 2008 players.

[billysan]

Still,I dont think you 'replace' a James Posey. As much as I like Daniels, we will play a little different type of game with him than we did James Posey. Defensively, less versatile in the frontcourt against forwards and more versatile against guards is my gut feeling. If Daniels can give us quality minutes on the wing and in the backcourt paired with Eddie House and one of the starters where Tony Allen and Marbury failed miserably last season, then we are significantly ahead of the game this season. The contributions (if any) by Bill Walker or even JR Giddens will only be a bonus.

As for the bigs, the overall improvement last year of Perk and BBD will extend into this season. Adding Wallace and Williams to replace Powe, Mikki/POB are even bigger additional improvement. Perk and BBD are going to be so much better than they were in 2008, it isnt even close.

I will sound like a broken record here but I think we have an excellent chance of seeing Glenn Davis 'outplay' Rasheed Wallace this season. Wallace will get the nod in early season to see what he has left.

If/when Wallace shows that he is a jump shooter only with little desire to play hardcore in the paint.....how long will we go with that when Baby is in there bangin away? We need that inside presence when Perk is on the bench. KG showed he wasnt up to it for long periods, especially last year.

There is a marked difference on this team when Perk is off the court. The only one I see consistently picking up the slack inside is Glen Davis, especially now that Leon Powe is gone.

[Edgar]

I am certain that

Sheed is still >>  and probably > BBD

[moiso]

I am certain that

Sheed is still >>  and probably > BBD

I'm not so certain about that.

[Edgar]

I am certain that

Sheed is still >>  and probably > BBD

I'm not so certain about that.

remember this guy

gold on playoffs thats what Sheed will be

[LB3533]

What we saw, when healthy, with an improved Rondo + Perk, the consistencies of Pierce and Ray, and despite a declining KG we were 27-2, the best starting team in the history of the NBA.

Every team wanted their chance to knock us off.

Every team, not including the Lakers (and boy were they ever), were hungry to beat us.

I expect us to start off pretty good this year, maybe not record setting pace like the past season, but pretty good nonetheless.

The only difference this year is we will have more consistency through out the season, and won't have too much slippage.

[moiso]

I am certain that

Sheed is still >>  and probably > BBD

I'm not so certain about that.

remember this guy

gold on playoffs thats what Sheed will be

buddha!  used to love him!

[billysan]

I am certain that

Sheed is still >>  and probably > BBD

I'm not so certain about that.

remember this guy

gold on playoffs thats what Sheed will be

Edgar, I hope and pray Sheed will give us about 25mpg of this guy during the playoffs. This will make us unbeatable my friend. During the regular season? I think young Glen Davis is picking up his slack......just my opinion.

[fairweatherfan]

Great 1st post, I agree with most of the points made.  I do agree with those who say that Posey ---> Daniels is the most appropriate comparison, even though Walker is closer in position.  Daniels is our multiposition bench veteran and is going to be asked to do a lot of what Posey did vs forwards but vs guards.  You could make a case for Sheed replacing Posey too (as a big man with length playing 6th man), despite the position differences as well.

And while I'm sorry to see Powe go, remember if we'd kept him and not signed Williams, the first post would look like this:

Powe ---> Powe in a suit

[mgent]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

I really don't think they negate first of all.  I see the first thing as 2 good players turning into absolutely nothing whereas the second thing is 2 good players turning into 2 great players.  PJ, Sam, Posey, and Leon vs. Rasheed and Daniels can be argued forever, but I still think the 08 bench was slightly better and certainly deeper.  I think our team about evens out given the improvements in Rondo, but the other teams have gotten better.  And our 08 team took 26 games win the championship to begin with.

Sheldon Williams is far from nothing and since we are talking a 2008 leon Powe here, he would have to replace 8 PPG and 4 RPG over 56 games because Leon was sat so often because he was ineffective at the beginning of the year. Let's stop painting the 2008 Leon into some sort of All-Star. At the beginning of that year he was highly inconsistent. Also, Powe was not a very good defender for most of 2008.

Williams is also not the best defender but he's not awful. Also he has better or similar PER40 rounding numbers than Leon. And since we are talking the 10th man on the bench, I don't see Williams being nothing. I would say he's fairly even with the 2008 version of Leon Powe and probably would contribute mountains more than the 2010 version of Leon Powe because Leon may never play ever again.

Also, Sam may have been a good player in his time and helped tremendously in winning a couple or three playoff games but his total contributions that year to the Celtics were equal to that of a very bad player. Sam didn't contribute 1996-2006 Sam Cassell basketball to the Celtics. He contributed old, washed up and barely useful Sam Cassell basketball to the Celtics. The upgrade to Daniels will be huge and all year long not the last 1/4 of the season.

Likewise for PJ Brown. He contributed towards some big wins in the playoffs but let's not confuse the version of PJ Brown we got with that of the player from a decade earlier. Wallace, likewise will be at the end of his rope but he will be here the whole year not 40 games total including the playoffs and he is a much better player even in his later years.

I'll give you Posey over Walker. But as a whole Posey, Sam, Brown and Leon are about a push this year for the Rasheed, Daniels, Williams and Walker replacements and maybe a slight advantage for the 2010 players if only because they will be here the whole year rather than the final 1/4 to 1/3 of the year like two of the 2008 players.

I don't see how Williams is gonna be 10th man off the bench.  Rasheed is gonna play most of the minutes and Davis will be taking whatever's left.  And then there's still Scal who I think Doc might play before Williams.  Either Perkins, KG, or Rasheed are gonna be on the court with Davis or Scal, so rebounding and defense aren't really gonna be a problem.  And who's to say Williams isn't gonna turn out to a be Mikki Moore, POB, Scot Pollard, etc.

As for Leon Powe, I think he deserves a little more credit.  He was playing as the 3rd big man for much of the year, whereas Williams is gonna be the 6th.  I don't think you can even compare them.  True, Powe's not an all-star, and he wasn't as good in 08 as he was in 09, but he was still a solid contributer.

And I agree that Sam wasn't a great player for us, but I wouldn't go as far as calling him a bad player.  He too was a contributer.  Who knows, the little things he and PJ did and the few games they helped us win, might've made the difference.

My point is they contributed to our championship, and I don't think Walker and Williams will.  And I don't mind if players come in 2/3 through the season, as long as they're there for the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

My depth chart:

1-5 Starters
6 Sheed
7 Daniels
8 House
9 Baby
10 Williams
11 Allen
12 Scal
13 Walker
14 Giddens
15 Hudson???

I can see where Williams would be a 10th man. I certainly don't see either Giddens, Walker or Hudson getting more time than he will and I think Scal and Allen just won't see minutes behind a Pierce, Ray, Daniels rotation at the wing.

Also, sugarcoat it all you want but Cassell was awful. He shot 38% in 17 games in the regular season and 33% in the playoffs and those numbers are that high because he had some really great shooting games. Otherwise his shooting was atrocious. He went like 0 for 4 games in the playoffs and his defense was a disaster.

And I'm not underselling Powe in 2008 so much as you are what Williams brings. He is an excellent rebounder. He has always been a 11-13 rebounds per 40 minutes guy which is great. I think Powe was very good at the end of 2008 but for the first 1/2 of the season he was constantly getting benched back and forth with Baby because they would both go through tremendous inconsistencies. Towards the end of the year they both picked their games up and played much better.

Otherall, I just think it's pretty much a push between the players that are different but I feel they players that are here are better because of better chemistry and the growth of the games of Baby, Rondo and Perk.

[mgent]

I don't think Sam Cassel was really all that much different from how Eddie House was or even in.  Although he's gotten more consistent lately he still has bad games and is pretty much average for his minutes saving those few spectacular nights (one thing Sam didn't have).

Sam wasn't great, but he better than most of what we had at that time.  There was Posey.  But then there Tony Allen and his injuries, and you've already mentioned how inconsistent Powe and Davis were.  Scal didn't get much play time.  Neither did Gabe Pruitt.  Eddie House and Sam really rounded out the small man rotation.  When Brown came he helped the front court a little.  Sam was pretty much the guy we want House to be this year (we probably won't expect as much from him if Rasheed and Daniels help on the scoring).  He wasn't the point guard I really wanted, but neither is Eddie.