What you see is what you get

[nickagneta]

After the 2008 Championship season Danny Ainge very much wanted to keep the core of the team together and added just some prospects in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough that could emerge into a viable and inexpensive alternative than to be upending the coffers for someone that he either thought wouldn't be worth the money in 3-4 years(Posey) or someone he felt just wasn't worth it(most anyone else). Probably mixed results, to be sure, as it seemed that no one he added to that 2008 core made any difference whatsoever.

But what did happen is that Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, Glen Davis, and Leon Powe took big steps forward in their progress as NBA players from youthful NBA prospects. This made all the difference in rolling to an incredible start of the year and if it wasn't for injuries, the 2009 Celtics may just have won it all.

But Danny's philosophy changed a bit this year, maybe the last year of the Big Three window, and he added a tough veteran defensive presence in Rasheed Wallace, a versatile swing man option with ball-handling skills in Marquis Daniels, and an under rated rebounding PF/C type youngster who has never really ever lived up to his potential in Sheldon Williams. But what he did once again is keep that championship core intact.

Here's a look at the roster from that 2008 Finals winning team and what it has transformed into today.

Rajon Rondo---------->Rajon Rondo
Ray Allen---------------->Ray Allen
Paul Pierce------------->Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett---------->Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins----->Kendrick Perkins
James Posey--------->Bill Walker
P. J. Brown------------->Rasheed Wallace
Eddie House---------->Eddie House
Sam Cassell---------->Marquis Daniels
Glen Davis-------------->Glen Davis
Leon Powe------------->Sheldon Williams
Gabe Pruitt------------->Lester Hudson???
Tony Allen-------------->Tony Allen
Brian Scalbrine------->Brian Scalabrine
Scot Pollard------------>J. R. Giddens

Daany must like the core and the consistency of it as 9 players from 2008 are still in uniform and making contributions Rondo, the Allens, Pierce, KG, Perk, Baby, House and Scal. On three of the remaining positions a think we have upgraded with Rashhed over P.J., Daniels over Sam I am, and Giddens over Pollard(anybody has to be able to contribute more than Scot did that year). I think it can be argued that we probably might have taken a step back or remained even in the other three area. Posey is definitely better than Walker(an important difference in the teams), Leon might be a bit better than Williams but a healthy Williams is definitely better than the currently injured until Feb or Mar 2010, and Hudson and Pruitt is probably a push.

And it's for this reason that I say, if this team stays healthy, don't expect changes. Don't expect trades. I wouldn't rule out an addition of a player once the mid season buyouts begin that will trumpet the end of Lester Hudson's career in Boston, but other than that, what you see is probably what you get this year.

I think Danny has always loved his core and has always looked at this as a three year window. So at the end of it he has Ray Allen, Tony Allen, Eddie House, Brian Scalabrine, Marquis Daniels, Sheldon Williams and possibly J. R. Giddens and Bill Walker walking away or being released at the end of this season and with Rajon Rondo being a restricted free agent.

Could he use all these expiring contracts and make moves at the deadline to enhance the teams chances for this year and pick up some longer term help along the way? Maybe, but I don't see it. I think Danny is going to rumble into the playoffs with this current group and with maybe one other instead of Hudson. Win or lose, this is Danny's team this year....I think.

And then, who knows. That's a story for another thread but with Danny's reluctance to make major moves once that 2008 team was assembled I have to think he is a big believe in team chemistry and consistency of personnel. I don't see him moving Tony and Scal in a package. I don't see a Perkins or Rondo trade. A don't see a Ray Allen blockbuster. And I see everyone else staying put. Just one man's view on things but if I were you I would get used to these names and stay out of the Trade Rumurs threads because it's not happening. This is your 2009-2010 Boston Celtics.

[moiso]

The key thing you mentioned is- if this team stays healthy.  I think the C's are far more talented than when they won the title with the additions and especially the improvement of Perk, Rondo, and Baby.  The thing that worries me is the older the big 3 get, the more likely they are to be less than 100% due to injury.  The year we won the title, Ray wasn't totally healthy.  Last year it was KG.  Who is it going to be this year?  I really hope KG bounces back.

[billysan]

After the 2008 Championship season Danny Ainge very much wanted to keep the core of the team together and added just some prospects in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough that could emerge into a viable and inexpensive alternative than to be upending the coffers for someone that he either thought wouldn't be worth the money in 3-4 years(Posey) or someone he felt just wasn't worth it(most anyone else). Probably mixed results, to be sure, as it seemed that no one he added to that 2008 core made any difference whatsoever.


Daany must like the core and the consistency of it as 9 players from 2008 are still in uniform and making contributions Rondo, the Allens, Pierce, KG, Perk, Baby, House and Scal. On three of the remaining positions a think we have upgraded with Rashhed over P.J., Daniels over Sam I am, and Giddens over Pollard(anybody has to be able to contribute more than Scot did that year). I think it can be argued that we probably might have taken a step back or remained even in the other three area. Posey is definitely better than Walker(an important difference in the teams), Leon might be a bit better than Williams but a healthy Williams is definitely better than the currently injured until Feb or Mar 2010, and Hudson and Pruitt is probably a push.

Key issue here is the core. We definitely are going forward with this core for at least this season and possibly the next. Barring injury we have no reason to change. As to the additions and development of players, that is going to be a work in progress. We will continue to add/subtract role players in an effort to fine tune the final product. I think we are a couple of players ahead of 2008 at this stage but as you say, health is now the key. It always is though isnt it?

And it's for this reason that I say, if this team stays healthy, don't expect changes. Don't expect trades. I wouldn't rule out an addition of a player once the mid season buyouts begin that will trumpet the end of Lester Hudson's career in Boston, but other than that, what you see is probably what you get this year.

....... reluctance to make major moves once that 2008 team was assembled I have to think he is a big believe in team chemistry and consistency of personnel. I don't see him moving Tony and Scal in a package. I don't see a Perkins or Rondo trade. A don't see a Ray Allen blockbuster. And I see everyone else staying put. Just one man's view on things but if I were you I would get used to these names and stay out of the Trade Rumurs threads because it's not happening. This is your 2009-2010 Boston Celtics.

There is a much greater chance each year after 2009 of a major move as we go forward. Regardless of your politics, this economy isnt going to surge back any time soon. That is bad news for much of the league and the smarter players will look to join stronger franchises like ours to gain stablity. There will be a number of teams looking to dump salary this spring and our expiring, including Ray Allen will be valuable.

The big question then is "Are we strong enough financially to take on a few of these guys or are we going to be in cost cutting mode as well?"

[slamtheking]

After the 2008 Championship season Danny Ainge very much wanted to keep the core of the team together and added just some prospects in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough that could emerge into a viable and inexpensive alternative than to be upending the coffers for someone that he either thought wouldn't be worth the money in 3-4 years(Posey) or someone he felt just wasn't worth it(most anyone else). Probably mixed results, to be sure, as it seemed that no one he added to that 2008 core made any difference whatsoever.

But what did happen is that Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, Glen Davis, and Leon Powe took big steps forward in their progress as NBA players from youthful NBA prospects. This made all the difference in rolling to an incredible start of the year and if it wasn't for injuries, the 2009 Celtics may just have won it all.

But Danny's philosophy changed a bit this year, maybe the last year of the Big Three window, and he added a tough veteran defensive presence in Rasheed Wallace, a versatile swing man option with ball-handling skills in Marquis Daniels, and an under rated rebounding PF/C type youngster who has never really ever lived up to his potential in Sheldon Williams. But what he did once again is keep that championship core intact.

Here's a look at the roster from that 2008 Finals winning team and what it has transformed into today.

Rajon Rondo---------->Rajon Rondo
Ray Allen---------------->Ray Allen
Paul Pierce------------->Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett---------->Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins----->Kendrick Perkins
James Posey--------->Bill Walker
P. J. Brown------------->Rasheed Wallace
Eddie House---------->Eddie House
Sam Cassell---------->Marquis Daniels
Glen Davis-------------->Glen Davis
Leon Powe------------->Sheldon Williams
Gabe Pruitt------------->Lester Hudson???
Tony Allen-------------->Tony Allen
Brian Scalbrine------->Brian Scalabrine
Scot Pollard------------>J. R. Giddens

Daany must like the core and the consistency of it as 9 players from 2008 are still in uniform and making contributions Rondo, the Allens, Pierce, KG, Perk, Baby, House and Scal. On three of the remaining positions a think we have upgraded with Rashhed over P.J., Daniels over Sam I am, and Giddens over Pollard(anybody has to be able to contribute more than Scot did that year). I think it can be argued that we probably might have taken a step back or remained even in the other three area. Posey is definitely better than Walker(an important difference in the teams), Leon might be a bit better than Williams but a healthy Williams is definitely better than the currently injured until Feb or Mar 2010, and Hudson and Pruitt is probably a push.

And it's for this reason that I say, if this team stays healthy, don't expect changes. Don't expect trades. I wouldn't rule out an addition of a player once the mid season buyouts begin that will trumpet the end of Lester Hudson's career in Boston, but other than that, what you see is probably what you get this year.

I think Danny has always loved his core and has always looked at this as a three year window. So at the end of it he has Ray Allen, Tony Allen, Eddie House, Brian Scalabrine, Marquis Daniels, Sheldon Williams and possibly J. R. Giddens and Bill Walker walking away or being released at the end of this season and with Rajon Rondo being a restricted free agent.

Could he use all these expiring contracts and make moves at the deadline to enhance the teams chances for this year and pick up some longer term help along the way? Maybe, but I don't see it. I think Danny is going to rumble into the playoffs with this current group and with maybe one other instead of Hudson. Win or lose, this is Danny's team this year....I think.

And then, who knows. That's a story for another thread but with Danny's reluctance to make major moves once that 2008 team was assembled I have to think he is a big believe in team chemistry and consistency of personnel. I don't see him moving Tony and Scal in a package. I don't see a Perkins or Rondo trade. A don't see a Ray Allen blockbuster. And I see everyone else staying put. Just one man's view on things but if I were you I would get used to these names and stay out of the Trade Rumurs threads because it's not happening. This is your 2009-2010 Boston Celtics.

I see it a little differently
Rajon Rondo---------->Rajon Rondo
Ray Allen---------------->Ray Allen
Paul Pierce------------->Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett---------->Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins----->Kendrick Perkins
James Posey--------->Marquis Daniels
P. J. Brown------------->Rasheed Wallace
Eddie House---------->Eddie House
Sam Cassell---------->Giddens
Glen Davis-------------->Glen Davis
Leon Powe------------->Walker
Gabe Pruitt------------->Lester Hudson???
Tony Allen-------------->Tony Allen
Brian Scalbrine------->Brian Scalabrine
Scot Pollard------------>Willlams

Just semantics--same players, different comparisons. 

[mgent]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

[cdif911]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

[hwangjini_1]

interesting thread and a thoughtful, well written post. thanks and tp.

as for the window and the core, ray allen is the most likely to exit first. unless he decides that taking a hefty paycut is worth it to try to win yet another championship after next year.

a guess the follow up/next step to this thread would be to look beyond the 3 three and see what is left to the celtics. then to figure which free agents would best fit with the remaining young celtics.

of course, with a young "left over" team, ainge may decide he can wait 2-3 years and try the draft as well.

[Vermont Green]

I think the second comparison offered by slamtheking is more aligned with how I look at it.  RW is a huge upgrade over PJ especially when you consider we have him all year (wasn't it Kandi before we got PJ?).  Daniels vs. Posey could be argued until the cows come home but I actually like Daniels slightly better on paper.  Let's see how he does in the clutch though.  Worst case, I don't see this as a step backwards.

All of the others don't really matter as in most cases it is the same person only more seasoned.  The one that will be debated in Powe but really we have Davis and Scal to play his minutes.  Powe had a few big games (one in particular against LA) but he really was not that big of a deal in terms of being replaceable.

Our bench is fine, best in the big 3 era.  Our weaknesses are injury potential due to age and Rondo's shooting.  Those are the only two things that can bring us down.

[nickagneta]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

[Tai]

What we see is what we get, huh? Arroyo's still out there....you never know...I've been saying he'll say who he's had talks with after the Americas Games, right? <_<

Very good post, first of all, nickagenta. I don't wanna embarass ya or anything, but you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. : ))

If this is truly what we'll get, I think we need to count our blessings real quick. We're easily a top 3 team, and if we were just coming off our dreadful 2006 season, we would've been screaming from the highest mountains. Well, some of us probably actually were when we got KG + Ray Allen. I personally was ecstatic when we got BBD because I remember how he owned Duke in the NCAA Tourney. But, at the time, I didn't know our chances of getting a title, at least, not until the regular season ended and I realized we won 66 freaking games. At that point, a title was gravy, and me personally? I slurping gravy after eating the mashed potatoes, so I enjoyed myself in late June of '08. : ))))

Anyways, top 3 now, and I feel that it's not enough this time around, I want the Celtics to be top 1 cause I know they have a chance and I know what this core's done the past two seasons. Rasheed Wallace, Marquis Daniels...I have no doubt they will do well for us, especially since they'll be off our bench.

So yes, here's to being the top 1 in the NBA this year!

[nickagneta]

What we see is what we get, huh? Arroyo's still out there....you never know...I've been saying he'll say who he's had talks with after the Americas Games, right? <_<

Very good post, first of all, nickagenta. I don't wanna embarass ya or anything, but you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. : ))

If this is truly what we'll get, I think we need to count our blessings real quick. We're easily a top 3 team, and if we were just coming off our dreadful 2006 season, we would've been screaming from the highest mountains. Well, some of us probably actually were when we got KG + Ray Allen. I personally was ecstatic when we got BBD because I remember how he owned Duke in the NCAA Tourney. But, at the time, I didn't know our chances of getting a title, at least, not until the regular season ended and I realized we won 66 freaking games. At that point, a title was gravy, and me personally? I slurping gravy after eating the mashed potatoes, so I enjoyed myself in late June of '08. : ))))

Anyways, top 3 now, and I feel that it's not enough this time around, I want the Celtics to be top 1 cause I know they have a chance and I know what this core's done the past two seasons. Rasheed Wallace, Marquis Daniels...I have no doubt they will do well for us, especially since they'll be off our bench.

So yes, here's to being the top 1 in the NBA this year!

TP Tai, and thank you for the kind words. They are reciprocated as you additions have been very nice enhancements to the site and always welcome.

[lon3lytoaster]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

Yeah, Pose would have been great against Rashard and Turkoglu, but we will be and we have been fine without him. Plus, as meantioned Daniels and Rasheed more than make up for the loss of Posey.

[Edgar]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

I absolutely agree in the Williams agains powe argument, hope ure right in this one

[billysan]

James Posey turning into Walker and Leon Powe turning into Williams absolutely sucks.

But PJ turning into Wallace and Sam I am turning into Marquis negates that, no?

That's the way I see it.

I think this team, as currently constructed, is as good as that 2008 team that won it all. That said the competition has gotten better. Also, I look at it that the Williams for Powe trade off isn't all that bad. First, Powe this year will have given us nothing and second, I think with a good surrounding cast that Williams might blossom into a very similar player to Powe with lots of offensive rebounds and garbage baskets though probably not as good defensively. Given he will be our 10th man, I like him as a one year Powe replacement in a year Powe couldn't have contributed anyway.

I absolutely agree in the Williams agains powe argument, hope ure right in this one

I think we have to factor in the vast improvement by Glen Davis this past year and the amount of injury time Leon Powe had the past 2 seasons in any Celtics big man discussion.

Adding Williams is an upgrade over POB and Sheed more than makes up for the loss of Leon/Mikki from last year. If you are going back 2 years then Sheed and Williams more than make up for PJ and Pollard while BBD will be more productive than the Leon Powe of 2 years ago.


The addition of Marquis this season is a huge improvement over last season when we really had no significant backup to play PG/SG/SF minutes other than Eddie House. The minutes by Marbury, Tony Allen and Walker last season were ineffective IMO.

I am hoping for a noticeable improvement from Bill Walker This year and I think Marquis will surpass Tony Allen's contribution. Will he replace Posey? probably not, but if Walker improves we may not need him to.
 

[Redz]

To me the biggest upgrade is:

Rondo>>>Rondo
Perk>>>Perk

and yes

Big Baby>>>Big Baby