Trade Idea -- SAC gets Baby and expirings, BOS gets Garcia, Udrih and Thompson

[ssspence]

BOS Trades (salary out - 11.8mil):

Baby signed for 4mil for 3 years
Scal (3.4mil, 1 year)
House (2.8mil, 1 year)
TA (2.5mil, 1 year)
Giddens (1mil, 1 year)

BOS receives (salary coming in - 13.8mil):

Garcia (5.8mil, 4 years)
Udrih (6mil, 4 years)
Thompson (2mil, 1 year + options)

SAC trades (salary out - 13.8mil):

Garcia (5.8mil, 4 years)
Udrih (6mil, 4 years)
Thompson (2mil, 1 year + options)

SAC receives (salary coming in - 13.8mil):

Baby signed for 4mil for 3 years
Scal (3.4mil, 1 year)
House (2.8mil, 1 year)
TA (2.5mil, 1 year)
Giddens (1mil, 1 year)


This works under both cap and BYC rules.

Boston then signs Daniels with the LLE and is done. They take on significant salary, but improve dramatically. The much maligned Udrih is overpaid, but finally represents a real back-up to run the 2nd unit. Garcia immediately fills the role of backing-up Pierce, and he's still young, improving and an underrated defender. Thompson has excellent ability and room for improvement, and makes the 2nd unit rotation Udrih (1), Daniels (2), Garcia (3), Thompson (4), Wallace (5). The Celtics immediately become the favorites to win Number 18. The players and front office give Wyc a lot of back-patting for his commitment to winning and paying the lux-tax.

The Kings likely buyout House, who hopefully resigns with the Cs but that's not a dealbreaker for me. They also likely buyout TA who they have no use for. Scal provides vet leadership. Baby -- on a reasonable, short-term deal -- and Giddens makes nice additions to their young core of Evans, Rodriguez, Martin, Casspi and Hawes, filling roles at PF and back-up 2. Trading Thompson hurts, but they shed very large amounts of long-term money from their seriously suffering bottom line -- so they lose on talent but win on $$$ in a way that few teams would be willing to provide them while agreeing to take on both Garcia and Udrih. They're 2010 payroll stands at a shocking 26.6mil before options, and in the meantime they move to San Diego, Kansas City or Vegas and become FA players for LeBron AND Bosh. OK, maybe that's too much, but the point is they gain serious flexibility.

Thoughts?

 

[Birdbrain]

No way House is being moved in fact he's better on the C's than of the players you mentioned.  BBD as well but, to a lesser extent.

[ssspence]

No way House is being moved in fact he's better on the C's than of the players you mentioned.  BBD as well but, to a lesser extent.

Like I said, he's likely bought out and resigned. But to suggest that you'd hold up a deal for Garcia and Thompson over House is sipping a little too much Kool Aid.

[hardlyyardley]

no way kings do it!!!

thompson is by far the best player in the deal

[Tw1x990]

Some posters really dont know anything about basketball outside of Boston.

No way the Kings do this, Thompson is a stud.

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Some posters really dont know anything about basketball outside of Boston.

No way the Kings do this, Thompson is a stud.

Maybe you're not paying attention to the business side of the discussion. The Maloofs have been hemoraging money and the Kings revenue is way down. They have the worst arena in the NBA and no hope of winning anytime soon.

They seriously overpaid Udrih and he's absolutely untradable without giving up an important asset. They owe him 26.7million over the next 4 years and they just drafted and traded for 2 PGs. They also have an overload of swing players and Garcia is owed 23.2million over the next 4 years.

Make yourself aware of the financial argeuement before you tell me I don't know Thompson is a very interesting player. This is the rich taking advantage of the poor.

[ssspence]

Another possibility here is that the Kings pay Baby 5-5.8mil on a one year deal. This provides them even more cap space next year, and greater flexibility. They could then drop Giddens from the deal if they wanted to, making this a pure salary dump with an eye towards 2010.

[blackbird]

Maybe you're not paying attention to the business side of the discussion. The Maloofs have been hemoraging money and the Kings revenue is way down. They have the worst arena in the NBA and no hope of winning anytime soon.

They seriously overpaid Udrih and he's absolutely untradable without giving up an important asset. They owe him 26.7million over the next 4 years and they just drafted and traded for 2 PGs. They also have an overload of swing players and Garcia is owed 23.2million over the next 4 years.

Make yourself aware of the financial argeuement before you tell me I don't know Thompson is a very interesting player. This is the rich taking advantage of the poor.

I actually think that the Celtics would be the team to decline this deal, and only because Udrih's contract is so noxious. I can imagine a team taking him in order to get Thompson (who is also going to get a big raise at year's end, remember), but not a luxury-tax paying team. No owner would be willing to pay 53.4 million dollars for a player of Udrih's quality.

[OCsWestCeltic]

No way any trade happens that includes Eddie House.

[ssspence]

Maybe you're not paying attention to the business side of the discussion. The Maloofs have been hemoraging money and the Kings revenue is way down. They have the worst arena in the NBA and no hope of winning anytime soon.

They seriously overpaid Udrih and he's absolutely untradable without giving up an important asset. They owe him 26.7million over the next 4 years and they just drafted and traded for 2 PGs. They also have an overload of swing players and Garcia is owed 23.2million over the next 4 years.

Make yourself aware of the financial argeuement before you tell me I don't know Thompson is a very interesting player. This is the rich taking advantage of the poor.

I actually think that the Celtics would be the team to decline this deal, and only because Udrih's contract is so noxious. I can imagine a team taking him in order to get Thompson (who is also going to get a big raise at year's end, remember), but not a luxury-tax paying team. No owner would be willing to pay 53.4 million dollars for a player of Udrih's quality.

Two points: 1) Thompson doesn't get a big raise at the end of the year, he has two years left on his rookie deal, 2) Ray's contract expires this year, and therefore will provide lux tax relief next year. There's essentially no lux tax effect this year as the salary in and out is pretty similar. Would you rather pay the lux tax for Tony Allen and Scal or Udrih? Pick your poison.

[Jon]

I don't know.  I don't hate the deal, but I also don't see a huge value in adding those players.  Plus if Udrih and Garcia each have 4 years left, I don't think Danny's going to like it since he seems to be setting up for some changes in 3 years when KG and Wallace expire. 

And as I said, I don't really see a huge value in giving ourselves a complete second unit.  This team is so good that it's going to win 65+ games no matter who is on the bench, so all that really matters is what our bench looks like in the playoffs in an 8-9 man rotation.  Thus, as good as Thompson might end up being, he's not going to get minutes in a 4/5 rotation of KG/Perk/Wallace in the playoffs.  Similarly, Garcia is going to have to beat out Daniels if he wants playoff minutes, because only one guy is going to backup Pierce and Allen in the playoffs.  And at point guard, is it worth paying Udrih that much money to play the whopping 5-10 mpg that will be available in the playoffs to backup Rondo? 

In my mind, the only way to clearly upgrade this team from where it is now, is to upgrade the starting 5 or the first 3 off the bench.  I'm not sure that deal does it. 

Now granted it doesn't really give up much either, but I don't see the Kings wanting to deal Thompson and I don't see Ainge wanting to take on those salaries to just marginally upgrade the bench. 

[paintitgreen]

I like the deal to an extent, because I like Garcia and Thompson. I just think Udrih is so terrible that I'd be hesitant.

I'm fine with giving up House. As much as I like him and he fits here, he's very one-dimensional and our problem in finding players seems to be that we have to have a big point guard because Eddie can't hope to guard wings. And while you mention buyout and resigning, remember that we may or may not have the lower level exception available to go after House, and it's very possible that another team gives him a portion of the MLE - not a ton, but enough that he'd go elsewhere.

[ssspence]

I don't know.  I don't hate the deal, but I also don't see a huge value in adding those players.  Plus if Udrih and Garcia each have 4 years left, I don't think Danny's going to like it since he seems to be setting up for some changes in 3 years when KG and Wallace expire. 

And as I said, I don't really see a huge value in giving ourselves a complete second unit.  This team is so good that it's going to win 65+ games no matter who is on the bench, so all that really matters is what our bench looks like in the playoffs in an 8-9 man rotation.  Thus, as good as Thompson might end up being, he's not going to get minutes in a 4/5 rotation of KG/Perk/Wallace in the playoffs.  Similarly, Garcia is going to have to beat out Daniels if he wants playoff minutes, because only one guy is going to backup Pierce and Allen in the playoffs.  And at point guard, is it worth paying Udrih that much money to play the whopping 5-10 mpg that will be available in the playoffs to backup Rondo? 

In my mind, the only way to clearly upgrade this team from where it is now, is to upgrade the starting 5 or the first 3 off the bench.  I'm not sure that deal does it. 

Now granted it doesn't really give up much either, but I don't see the Kings wanting to deal Thompson and I don't see Ainge wanting to take on those salaries to just marginally upgrade the bench. 

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, and I agree the Urdih commitment is a big one. In order to make it you HAVE to believe that Thompson can continue to blossom into an elite defender and shot blocker to go with his solid rebounding and developing post game (hello, Cliff Ray).

While I agree that a 'whole second unit' i.e. 5 guys who play at once is not important, I do feel we have to consider age, stamina and injury. Whether it's during the reg season or the playoffs, minutes have got to be considered. i simply do not believe that The Three can go out and win 65 games, then dominate the playoffs. We've seen it before, and we need more depth than the average (read: younger) contender to win the marathon that is the NBA season. For example,

1) If Ray, Paul or Daniels (with a history of injury, and coasting) sustains a serious injury at any point, we're immediately thin again, with a glaring shortage of NBA caliber players on the wing (those who want to mention TA, Giddens or Walker -- skip it).  Different guys will get different minutes at varying times, and this team needs more than Daniels to back up those two guys. Note the fact that Cleveland added Parker and Moon this summer, and their starting SG and SF are both about 8 years younger than ours. There's no way to predict who pans out, and Garcia being a better distance shooter and better defender, vs the slashing mid-range game of daniels, they're not duplicitous. But even if you're correct about competing for playoff minutes, one could certainly argue Garcia is the better player anyway, and Daniels is likely to be on a one-year deal in the first place.

2) Perk's shoulder problem gets worse, and he's out for a distinct period of time, or the year -- this is one of my biggest ongoing concerns for the Cs. Or KG again has nagging injury issues. We're left with an aged Sheed starting and once again a very limited bench. Baby has to play center too frequently and we have no real back-up 4, etc etc. Thompson is certainly more athletic and versitile than Baby, and is of simlar age to the infant. So I believe you're wrong to imagine that Thompson can't win playoff minutes on this team. If Baby can earn playoff minutes, why can't Thompson? He has the potential to be a nasty defender and a future star on this team.

This team continues to lack depth. Even with Sheed and Daniels, the talent level falls off dramatically past the first 3 off our bench -- far more so than our primary competitors. Meanwhile, the salary layout is not so bad. With Ray, PP and KG staggered on experation of contracts, it allows the team to gel a younger nucleus while staying a champ contender. I believe the Cs would still be a favorite with this team and Ray gone next year. And once Paul expires / resigns for a fair short term deal, the Cs will be commited to Rondo, Garcia, Thompson, Walker, Perk and Udrih with KG in the last year of his deal. That's a very strong and complimentary core.

[blackbird]

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis, and I agree the Urdih commitment is a big one. In order to make it you HAVE to believe that Thompson can continue to blossom into an elite defender and shot blocker to go with his solid rebounding and developing post game (hello, Cliff Ray).

While I agree that a 'whole second unit' i.e. 5 guys who play at once is not important, I do feel we have to consider age, stamina and injury. Whether it's during the reg season or the playoffs, minutes have got to be considered. i simply do not believe that The Three can go out and win 65 games, then dominate the playoffs. We've seen it before, and we need more depth than the average (read: younger) contender to win the marathon that is the NBA season. For example,

1) If Ray, Paul or Daniels (with a history of injury, and coasting) sustains a serious injury at any point, we're immediately thin again, with a glaring shortage of NBA caliber players on the wing (those who want to mention TA, Giddens or Walker -- skip it).  Different guys will get different minutes at varying times, and this team needs more than Daniels to back up those two guys. Note the fact that Cleveland added Parker and Moon this summer, and their starting SG and SF are both about 8 years younger than ours. There's no way to predict who pans out, and Garcia being a better distance shooter and better defender, vs the slashing mid-range game of daniels, they're not duplicitous. But even if you're correct about competing for playoff minutes, one could certainly argue Garcia is the better player anyway, and Daniels is likely to be on a one-year deal in the first place.

2) Perk's shoulder problem gets worse, and he's out for a distinct period of time, or the year -- this is one of my biggest ongoing concerns for the Cs. Or KG again has nagging injury issues. We're left with an aged Sheed starting and once again a very limited bench. Baby has to play center too frequently and we have no real back-up 4, etc etc. Thompson is certainly more athletic and versitile than Baby, and is of simlar age to the infant. So I believe you're wrong to imagine that Thompson can't win playoff minutes on this team. If Baby can earn playoff minutes, why can't Thompson? He has the potential to be a nasty defender and a future star on this team.

This team continues to lack depth. Even with Sheed and Daniels, the talent level falls off dramatically past the first 3 off our bench -- far more so than our primary competitors. Meanwhile, the salary layout is not so bad. With Ray, PP and KG staggered on experation of contracts, it allows the team to gel a younger nucleus while staying a champ contender. I believe the Cs would still be a favorite with this team and Ray gone next year. And once Paul expires / resigns for a fair short term deal, the Cs will be commited to Rondo, Garcia, Thompson, Walker, Perk and Udrih with KG in the last year of his deal. That's a very strong and complimentary core.

You make some very good points here. I would be on board with this if it happened. But I still don't think Wyc and friends would do it because of Udrih's contract. Four years is a long time to endure suck. He makes twice as much as Scal, and he is only marginally better if at all.

I'd also like to be able to re-sign Ray Allen next summer. But I do share your concerns about the roster and give you your propers for thinking about somewhat realistic solutions. I'm also grateful to see a SAC-BOS trade that doesn't involve us getting Nocioni.

I don't think Sacramento is desperate enough to do this, either, now that I think about it. Of course I didn't think Memphis was desperate enough to trade Pau Gasol for Kwame Brown either, so who knows. I don't know why they would want Big Baby. I think they might be able to get something better for Thompson, even considering the extreme negative value of Udrih.

[ssspence]

Thanks, Blackbird. One reason I put this together this way is that I think Udrih is a little over-maligned. Yes, they overpaid him severely for little reason, but he played totally respectable ball on a truly aweful team last year devoid of its only big time player. But the contract is tough, no question.

Regarding the Kings, poke around a little on The Maloofs. They have serious financial problems and are going to become desparate to move the team or build a new arena, and their cash position is scary. They just dumped John Salmons to get rid of one year of Brad Miller. So giving up Thompson in order to get rid of 4 years of Garcia (who plays the same position as Noce, another 4 year guy) AND Udrih would have to be very seriously considered.

Meanwhile, I can't speak for how much they like Baby, but like I said they could sign him for a year to get it done. Glen gets what he wants, some cash and the ability to play alot and earn a long-term deal next summer, and the Kings dial in a total of 15mil in cap space and about 42mil in long-term salary relief.