Trade Idea: Kevin Martin?

[Fafnir]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team. Or worse he forces you to make a salary dump to get under the tax, and you have to give away players and picks.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

[Neurotic Guy]

I'm interested in the present (next 2 years) and tend to agree with Mr. October above that the there is an important trust/bond ethos at work amongst the Big 3, Sheed, Doc and DA.  I am not saying that it can't be broken to improve the team, but any move that breaks the bond must consider the ensuing impact.  I am not sure that Martin/Nocioni is enough added value to make it worth the risk of losing Ray and the 'bond'.  We have a working nucleus -- quite possibly the best in the NBA -- why mess with it?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

The goal here is not to acquire expiring contract. The goal here is to get a really good player in Martin, and a good contributor to your team with Nocioni. Nocioni is not dead weight, he'll help us win. That his bad contract might become useful after two seasons is simply icing in the cake. Contract length here is more important.


If we have these people locked up for a couple of years, there aren't many moves you need to make with the MLE:

Pierce
Sheed
Garnett
Martin
Nocioni
Daniels (if it goes through)
Perkins
Giddens

Then you deal with Rondo and his qualifying offer next year. If he's offered a max contract (which I doubt), he'll make about 13 million in his first season. I don't envision that being a problem. And if a trade like this is made, I would think that Danny already took into account this scenario.

We'll be playing in the playoffs for the next couple of years, that extra money for the Celts. New merchandise with Nocioni and Martin jersey's will help out too.

Nocioni's contract I think it's something the Celtics' organization can easily swallow for the time being, and turn it into a positive later. Meanwhile, he's a good contributor.

As a bonus, you got a good core to continue beyond the Big 3.

[Fafnir]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

The goal here is not to acquire expiring contract. The goal here is to get a really good player in Martin, and a good contributor to your team with Nocioni. Nocioni is not dead weight, he'll help us win. That his bad contract might become useful after two seasons is simply icing in the cake. Contract length here is more important.


If we have these people locked up for a couple of years, there aren't many moves you need to make with the MLE:

Pierce
Sheed
Garnett
Martin
Nocioni
Daniels (if it goes through)
Perkins
Giddens

Then you deal with Rondo and his qualifying offer next year. If he's offered a max contract (which I doubt), he'll make about 13 million in his first season. I don't envision that being a problem. And if a trade like this is made, I would think that Danny already took into account this scenario.

We'll be playing in the playoffs for the next couple of years, that extra money for the Celts. New merchandise with Nocioni and Martin jersey's will help out too.

Nocioni's contract I think it's something the Celtics' organization can easily swallow for the time being, and turn it into a positive later. Meanwhile, he's a good contributor.

As a bonus, you got a good core to continue beyond the Big 3.

You're missing what I'm saying, this would be a fantastic deal for the Celtics. I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that long term big dollar deals for so-so talent are desirable because they'll be expiring after our window is close with Ray/Paul/Kevin.

Such contracts are just bad. That is why Posey isn't a C anymore, and why the Hornets regret his deal. That's why the Bulls dumped Nocioni, and why the Kings are probably looking to dump him. The league is littered with players ping ponged around the league on bad deals.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

The goal here is not to acquire expiring contract. The goal here is to get a really good player in Martin, and a good contributor to your team with Nocioni. Nocioni is not dead weight, he'll help us win. That his bad contract might become useful after two seasons is simply icing in the cake. Contract length here is more important.


If we have these people locked up for a couple of years, there aren't many moves you need to make with the MLE:

Pierce
Sheed
Garnett
Martin
Nocioni
Daniels (if it goes through)
Perkins
Giddens

Then you deal with Rondo and his qualifying offer next year. If he's offered a max contract (which I doubt), he'll make about 13 million in his first season. I don't envision that being a problem. And if a trade like this is made, I would think that Danny already took into account this scenario.

We'll be playing in the playoffs for the next couple of years, that extra money for the Celts. New merchandise with Nocioni and Martin jersey's will help out too.

Nocioni's contract I think it's something the Celtics' organization can easily swallow for the time being, and turn it into a positive later. Meanwhile, he's a good contributor.

As a bonus, you got a good core to continue beyond the Big 3.

You're missing what I'm saying, this would be a fantastic deal for the Celtics. I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that long term big dollar deals for so-so talent are desirable because they'll be expiring after our window is close with Ray/Paul/Kevin.

Such contracts are just bad. That is why Posey isn't a C anymore, and why the Hornets regret his deal. That's why the Bulls dumped Nocioni, and why the Kings are probably looking to dump him. The league is littered with players ping ponged around the league on bad deals.

If this were another team, I would agree. But I think that the Celtics organization is doing pretty good financially, especially after their playoffs runs.

And is 3 years long term? I think 3 years is quite reasonable for us.

The difference with Posey is:

1) He's 3 years older.
2) We would have used our MLE to get him. Nocioni will come via trade with Martin.
3) Nocioni is a more productive player than Posey.

We were willing to pay Posey the money, just not the length... especially factoring his age.

You also have to factor what Martin would mean to us when the Big 3 is done, and on how still being competitive will help financially.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Also remember that the Bulls and the Kings are trying to position themselves for next year's free-agency.

[Fafnir]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

The goal here is not to acquire expiring contract. The goal here is to get a really good player in Martin, and a good contributor to your team with Nocioni. Nocioni is not dead weight, he'll help us win. That his bad contract might become useful after two seasons is simply icing in the cake. Contract length here is more important.


If we have these people locked up for a couple of years, there aren't many moves you need to make with the MLE:

Pierce
Sheed
Garnett
Martin
Nocioni
Daniels (if it goes through)
Perkins
Giddens

Then you deal with Rondo and his qualifying offer next year. If he's offered a max contract (which I doubt), he'll make about 13 million in his first season. I don't envision that being a problem. And if a trade like this is made, I would think that Danny already took into account this scenario.

We'll be playing in the playoffs for the next couple of years, that extra money for the Celts. New merchandise with Nocioni and Martin jersey's will help out too.

Nocioni's contract I think it's something the Celtics' organization can easily swallow for the time being, and turn it into a positive later. Meanwhile, he's a good contributor.

As a bonus, you got a good core to continue beyond the Big 3.

You're missing what I'm saying, this would be a fantastic deal for the Celtics. I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that long term big dollar deals for so-so talent are desirable because they'll be expiring after our window is close with Ray/Paul/Kevin.

Such contracts are just bad. That is why Posey isn't a C anymore, and why the Hornets regret his deal. That's why the Bulls dumped Nocioni, and why the Kings are probably looking to dump him. The league is littered with players ping ponged around the league on bad deals.

You also have to factor what Martin would mean to us when the Big 3 is done, and on how still being competitive will help financially.

No I don't. I said quite clearly that getting Martin is worth it, especially since Nocioni is an okay bench option.

I'm not really talking about the trade, but rather the idea that taking back Nocioni's contract is somehow a good thing because his deal will expire after three years.

I don't think the age difference between Posey and Nocioni really matters. With his injury issues I think he'll decline as much as Big Game James.

[BASS_THUMPER]

sac and chi gonna be low men for awhile


we been thru it and we know it takes time

[Fafnir]

Also remember that the Bulls and the Kings are trying to position themselves for next year's free-agency.

The Bulls are, I think the Kings are just trying to keep afloat.

We can only hope they're desperate enough to make this deal  . Sadly I think they'd get a bigger offer for Martin. (less expiring money but more cheap talent coming back probably)

[Fafnir]

sac and chi gonna be low men for awhile


we been thru it and we know it takes time

Yup and you don't trade your young star for cap space to get rid of contracts unless your owners force you. Keep your star and try to bring in a superstar talent either through draft or trade. Both approaches require keeping and developing your young players.

[BASS_THUMPER]

who is sac star right now?

heck who is chi town star rite now?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I love Ray, but this is a great deal for us.

Nocioni's contract is pretty bad.

Doesn't bother me in the least. We're not going to be under the cap any time soon, and he'll be a contributor. In 2012 he'll be an expiring contract, which will be valuable to us. In fact, it's a great contract for us to have, especially if we get Martin too.

I hate that logic, rationalizing that its okay to have a bad deal because it eventually expires.

I do agree that Nocioni fits with the team's window pretty well. Well worth taking on his salary to get Martin. But I wouldn't want him on his own.

You can hate the logic, but it's how the NBA works, and it's in our best interest to have Nocioni as a contributor AND his bad contract.

Only if your owner gives you an unlimited budget. Otherwise having bad deals keeps you from making additional moves or using the MLE to improve your team.

Besides getting large expiring contracts isn't that difficult, you just don't want to be over paying for what you get while you wait for the magical expiring status. Even then they don't always turn into gold.

The goal here is not to acquire expiring contract. The goal here is to get a really good player in Martin, and a good contributor to your team with Nocioni. Nocioni is not dead weight, he'll help us win. That his bad contract might become useful after two seasons is simply icing in the cake. Contract length here is more important.


If we have these people locked up for a couple of years, there aren't many moves you need to make with the MLE:

Pierce
Sheed
Garnett
Martin
Nocioni
Daniels (if it goes through)
Perkins
Giddens

Then you deal with Rondo and his qualifying offer next year. If he's offered a max contract (which I doubt), he'll make about 13 million in his first season. I don't envision that being a problem. And if a trade like this is made, I would think that Danny already took into account this scenario.

We'll be playing in the playoffs for the next couple of years, that extra money for the Celts. New merchandise with Nocioni and Martin jersey's will help out too.

Nocioni's contract I think it's something the Celtics' organization can easily swallow for the time being, and turn it into a positive later. Meanwhile, he's a good contributor.

As a bonus, you got a good core to continue beyond the Big 3.

You're missing what I'm saying, this would be a fantastic deal for the Celtics. I agree with you on that. But I don't agree that long term big dollar deals for so-so talent are desirable because they'll be expiring after our window is close with Ray/Paul/Kevin.

Such contracts are just bad. That is why Posey isn't a C anymore, and why the Hornets regret his deal. That's why the Bulls dumped Nocioni, and why the Kings are probably looking to dump him. The league is littered with players ping ponged around the league on bad deals.

You also have to factor what Martin would mean to us when the Big 3 is done, and on how still being competitive will help financially.

No I don't. I said quite clearly that getting Martin is worth it, especially since Nocioni is an okay bench option.

I only mention it to factor in the financial aspect. That maybe you overpay Nocioni for now, but if the result of it is that you remain competitive longer with Martin here, then financially it makes sense.

I'm not really talking about the trade, but rather the idea that taking back Nocioni's contract is somehow a good thing because his deal will expire after three years.

Taking Nocioni's contract is not the good thing. Adding a solid bench player for a couple of years is the good thing. Nocioni's contract simply becomes valuable in 3 years (after 2 seasons), and we can use that. If Nocioni were a piece of crap player, then you would have to hesitate here, but Nocioni will be useful for us when we need him to be useful, and after that his contract will be useful.

Also remember that the Bulls and the Kings are trying to position themselves for next year's free-agency.

The Bulls are, I think the Kings are just trying to keep afloat.

We can only hope they're desperate enough to make this deal  . Sadly I think they'd get a bigger offer for Martin. (less expiring money but more cheap talent coming back probably)

I agree, I very much doubt that Ray Allen alone would get it done.

[Fafnir]

who is sac star right now?

heck who is chi town star rite now?

Kevin Martin and Derrick Rose respectively, both are very good.

[footey]

If Ray starts to show slippage this year, Danny would seriously consider it, assuming that the Kings were game.  Danny has vowed not to let this Celtic team decline the way the '86 team did. He is not sentimental. He wants to win now, and build for the future.  This trade could be win/win, adding depth and youth in one move, without losing talent at the 2.

[BASS_THUMPER]

kevin m average and age?

i hate to say it but why wait to see if ray can  do his job?