Author Topic: The True Value of BBD ?  (Read 9972 times)

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Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 12:25:55 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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I'm sure that BBD's numbers look better when he plays center alongside Garnett than when he plays power forward alongside Perkins.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 12:27:10 PM »

Offline huzy

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Big Fat TP!

I'm not going to criticize your sample size because this is the most logical approach I've seen in assessing BBD's value.

Great stuff!



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Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 12:36:23 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Not necessarily true - there's no info on variability, and it's not like he tried to run a t-test on them or anything, so there's no way to eyeball that.  Also, the first two graphs are based on samples of 1637 and 3975 minutes, respectively, and they paint a similar picture of Baby's effectiveness.  Even with the comparison b/w Baby and Scal with specific lineups, it's easy enough to run them through a few thousand bootstraps and get around sample issues. 

Either way, like all stats these aren't perfectly descriptive of BBD's ability, or even his actual play, but they do indicate that his value to the team may not be as high as it seems.  There are lots of possible confounds - the biggest one being KG's impact - and a real analysis would require tons of context for those numbers, but like the OP said, it's a different perspective on a popular debate.  I like the added perspective of actual data, since it's more predictive than subjective opinion or memorable moments any day. 

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 12:39:49 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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First, no, Davis didn't play better than Posey this year. Davis played above what we expected, but it wasn't good enough because he can't defend. Maybe Posey isn't an elite perimeter defender at this stage, but he is ridiculously superior to Davis in that category. If we had Posey instead of Davis on our team this year, we would have beaten Orlando. For all Davis added in terms of offense, remember Orlando didn't respect his shot and often left him open to double on Ray and Paul. The last second shot was an extreme example, but a good indication of how Orlando's defense prioritized keeping a man on Baby. With Posey, they stay on him and respect his shot and it opens up more opportunities for other players.

Now, I think the OP does understate Davis's contributions. It wasn't that negative. It wasn't as positive as some people have said (he doesn't have a good jumper, he's a bad defensive rebounder and all around defender), but it wasn't negative (good offensive rebounding, okay shot, decent court vision and handle for his size, intensity and intangibles). He's also young and has shown improvement. I still think we should keep Davis at anything up to $4 mil a year and maybe consider matching above that too.

While I agree that he's not needed for that many minutes barring injury, and there will be situations where those minutes would be better filled by Scal, the way I look at it is that Davis is an asset. He has some value. He's young, he's big and he can play in the NBA. That has inherent value. We don't have many ways to get a piece that we need now or may need during the season. We have $2 million in the biannual exception and as many minimum contracts as we want to give out/have roster space for. That isn't a lot to offer, especially as free agency dries up. Our best bet to add a good piece (i.e., not a stopgap like Mikki Moore) now or later is through a trade. Davis is at the very least an asset toward such a trade. If we let him walk to pick up a minimum salary guy, we don't just risk the player being inferior, we also risk not having the necessary pieces to make a trade to help us out.

Now, clearly BYC rules will make it somewhat difficult to trade Davis, a situation which would be even more difficult if he signs an offer sheet and we match, imposing a lot of restrictions on trading Davis. However, if we can wrap him up before that happens, we still at least hold onto an asset.

In the present six to eight team arms race going on in the NBA, I just think it's a bad idea to let assets go. That's why the Orlando move in matching the Gortat offer, expensive as it was, was such a big addition for the Magic - they are not giving away assets. They're holding onto them. As expensive as it is, in this heightened competition, that's what we have to think about. We've got 7 solid rotation players (starters, Wallace and House), a couple last resort injury fillins (Scal, maybe TA), some young projects with limited trade value (Walker, Giddens, Pruitt) and limited trade assets (future firsts, but I think 2013 is the first one we could give; bad second round picks; Scal and TA's expiring deals; low value young projects). Davis gives you at the very least another injury fill in, a trade asset, and maybe even another solid rotation player if he makes strides on last year. I just think with our limited additional assets, we need to hold onto a guy like Davis. And to protect tradeability, I'd love to see us offer him a 2 year $6 million deal to see if he'll take it or be actively exploring sign and trade deals now.
Go Celtics.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 12:43:43 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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Actually his opinion seems to be on par with most on this site.  It does seem like he put a lot of time into it.  He is using stats for a 2nd year player though which can be a bit misleading.  I tend to use the eyeball test and I've never been big on his ' weight issues ' so I value him a lot higher than most.

We would have beaten Orlando if KG wasn't hurt as well.
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Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 12:59:47 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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First, no, Davis didn't play better than Posey this year. Davis played above what we expected, but it wasn't good enough because he can't defend. Maybe Posey isn't an elite perimeter defender at this stage, but he is ridiculously superior to Davis in that category. 
I guess Davis' job on Howard alongside Perk doesn't count. I guess it also doesn't count when Posey couldn't guard Richard Hamilton, and struggled a bit against Kobe and how game by game his defensive job on LeBron deteriorated to the point that we were shouting for Doc to put Pierce back in to guard him. Davis matches well against some while Posey matches well against others. No doubt that Posey is a better and smarter defender overall than Davis, but let's not sell Davis short either.

Quote
If we had Posey instead of Davis on our team this year, we would have beaten Orlando. For all Davis added in terms of offense, remember Orlando didn't respect his shot and often left him open to double on Ray and Paul. The last second shot was an extreme example, but a good indication of how Orlando's defense prioritized keeping a man on Baby. With Posey, they stay on him and respect his shot and it opens up more opportunities for other players.

Lewis was a simple mismatch for Davis, same as a power player would be a mismatch for Posey. It's a different skillset, and comparing the players like this is unfair... they serve different purposes. Had KG and Powe been healthy, Lewis wouldn't have been a problem.


Now that we got those two issues out of the way, just compare their performances in other areas. FG%, points production, PER, etc. You'll find that most stats that are relevant to compare against each other Baby was better.

So yes, overall, Baby had a better postseason than Posey.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 01:04:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Agreed, these stats don´t prove anything, imo.

And Baby´s "on court/off court" stats show that the team plays worse with him in the lineup? Well, no ****. He played most of his minutes when KG was out with an injury, or as his backup, so it`s no wonder that the team`s overall stats go down with him in the lineup.
It would be interesting to see some advanced stats-comparisons with Baby-lineups (only for the time KG was out) against other teams lineups, or stats of the "difference in production" from KG to Baby compared to the "difference in production" other backup 4s give their respective teams when their Franchise PF goes down (which I think is impossible to measure).

Statistics never tell the whole picture.  But I don't think the sampling size is too small to discount.  You have a point regarding the On/Off statistics, which is why I compared him to Scally later on.  You could compare BBD to Powe even and find the same trend:  BBD is not the best sub at PF/C.  Unfortunately Powe's injury excludes him from my future analysis.

My main point is this:  I've seen so many people on this board over-inflate BBD's value that I thought I'd present a different view.  Some may agree, some may disagree, but as long as a different angle is seen then I'm happy.

  It's hard to use stats to compare players with different spots on the depth chart. For one thing Davis is playing against better player (on average) than Scal. Also, he's more likely to be in the game when it's close. And Doc tries to get good matchups on the court, so Scal is going to play more against players that Doc thinks he'll be successful against. He can't really do that for starters, which Davis was for much of the year. I use stats a lot and I'm not a huge Davis guy, so I'm not trying to say that your stats are worthless for either reason, but you have to consider these things when comparing players, especially starters vs backups.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 01:07:09 PM »

Offline StealthB

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I like BBD, but I think his value is higher now because the injury Powe suffered.  If Powe was healthy we would have resigned him for much less and would not care as much about retaining BBD.  Conversely, I don't see DA making any hard push for a backup 2/3 at this point in the offseason, nor a backup PG.  I think he's going to wait out and see the crop of free agents available in August.  Also, if the Celtics are going to hold onto any of our draft picks from previous years like Giddens and Walker then they need to give them a a chance to play.  The only guy I know can't play is Pruitt, at least until this point given his limited time.  

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 01:13:48 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Not necessarily true - there's no info on variability, and it's not like he tried to run a t-test on them or anything, so there's no way to eyeball that.  Also, the first two graphs are based on samples of 1637 and 3975 minutes, respectively, and they paint a similar picture of Baby's effectiveness.  Even with the comparison b/w Baby and Scal with specific lineups, it's easy enough to run them through a few thousand bootstraps and get around sample issues. 


  The problem is that the quality of the opponent isn't necessarily the same. It's not a apples to apples comparison that it seems. For the lineups with Baby and Scal playning center, for instance, the better (offensively) the other center is the more likely Davis instead of Scal would be playing.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 01:15:16 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Not necessarily true - there's no info on variability, and it's not like he tried to run a t-test on them or anything, so there's no way to eyeball that.  Also, the first two graphs are based on samples of 1637 and 3975 minutes, respectively, and they paint a similar picture of Baby's effectiveness.  Even with the comparison b/w Baby and Scal with specific lineups, it's easy enough to run them through a few thousand bootstraps and get around sample issues. 

Either way, like all stats these aren't perfectly descriptive of BBD's ability, or even his actual play, but they do indicate that his value to the team may not be as high as it seems.  There are lots of possible confounds - the biggest one being KG's impact - and a real analysis would require tons of context for those numbers, but like the OP said, it's a different perspective on a popular debate.  I like the added perspective of actual data, since it's more predictive than subjective opinion or memorable moments any day. 
My experience with 5 man unit stats has been that you need a ton of minutes to eliminate the noise. I'll look around to find the articles on this, its similar to the adjusted +/- noise.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2009, 01:19:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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First, no, Davis didn't play better than Posey this year. Davis played above what we expected, but it wasn't good enough because he can't defend. Maybe Posey isn't an elite perimeter defender at this stage, but he is ridiculously superior to Davis in that category. If we had Posey instead of Davis on our team this year, we would have beaten Orlando.

  Was Posey going to guard Dwight Howard when Perk was on the bench? How about Gortat? Even if you think Posey's the better player of the two, Posey couldn't have done what we needed from Davis in the playoffs, nor could any other healthy player on our roster.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2009, 01:27:06 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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I'm sure that BBD's numbers look better when he plays center alongside Garnett than when he plays power forward alongside Perkins.

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Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2009, 01:30:27 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Not necessarily true - there's no info on variability, and it's not like he tried to run a t-test on them or anything, so there's no way to eyeball that.  Also, the first two graphs are based on samples of 1637 and 3975 minutes, respectively, and they paint a similar picture of Baby's effectiveness.  Even with the comparison b/w Baby and Scal with specific lineups, it's easy enough to run them through a few thousand bootstraps and get around sample issues. 

Either way, like all stats these aren't perfectly descriptive of BBD's ability, or even his actual play, but they do indicate that his value to the team may not be as high as it seems.  There are lots of possible confounds - the biggest one being KG's impact - and a real analysis would require tons of context for those numbers, but like the OP said, it's a different perspective on a popular debate.  I like the added perspective of actual data, since it's more predictive than subjective opinion or memorable moments any day. 
My experience with 5 man unit stats has been that you need a ton of minutes to eliminate the noise. I'll look around to find the articles on this, its similar to the adjusted +/- noise.

I basically agree with you - there are lots of confounds with this kind of data.  My point was

- There aren't any sample size issues with the the general, season-wide data that starts the post, and they say pretty much the same thing as the specific comparisons, other than the addition of some Scal data for context.
- Even if lineup data by itself is very fuzzy and not significant, it's still more likely than not that the team was better with Scal on the floor than Baby.  Why that's the case is an open debate, and lots of posters have already pointed out reasons other than BBD/Scal's ability or play that could drive this.  But that is pretty much the case, and it indicates that things went better for the C's with Scal out there vs. Baby.

I get sidetracked by stats issues cause it's a big part of my work, but I think even with this info, the C's would be smart to match anything up to $4 million or so, and probably would have a tough decision with an MLE-level deal.  The sub-MLE deal would be roughly what we gave to Scal a few years back, and BBD can play center and showed significant improvement even over the course of the year. 

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2009, 01:31:15 PM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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All valid points.  

However, my point is still that people on this site over-hype (and over-value) BBD.  My gut feeling is that he's not as important of a cog as others have stated.  

You can say that the statistics are very limited, but if you step back even further you will see that regardless of the matchups the GENERAL THEME is that BBD in a lineup does not necessarily make it better.  I only selected two separate lineups to compare the two players.  Again, if you go to all lineups with this past year, replacing BBD would likely result in a benefit.  Btw, 361 minutes is not a small sample for the season.  That lineup was the 2nd most used lineup by the C's and had a net result of -39 points, and a losing record.  

Paintitgreen, you had a great point that BBD is still an asset and in this "arms race" we are in, it would be benefit us to keep all of the assets we can.  TP for you.  However, I feel that BBD should never be relied on to provide more than 8 minutes a game backup.  The Celtics are too good of an organization to plan on having him play more than that.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2009, 01:37:02 PM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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I'm sure that BBD's numbers look better when he plays center alongside Garnett than when he plays power forward alongside Perkins.

Ding ding we have a winner...



Perhaps so, but if you are playing alongside 2.5 all stars (Pierce, Allen, 1/2 Rondo) and Perkins the net result should not be a negative.  This may highlight even more the immense drop off in value from Garnett to BBD. 

Keep in mind on salaries that $4million is actually $8million to ownership now.  If you owned the Celtics would you cut $8million off of your potential profit just to have BBD sit on the bench behind 4 people?  Why not get someone else much cheaper and save yourself millions.