Author Topic: The True Value of BBD ?  (Read 10032 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

The True Value of BBD ?
« on: July 15, 2009, 10:32:47 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Tommy Points: 115
Overview:
I wanted to take a look at the true value of Glen “Big Baby” Davis (BBD) to the Celtics organization, and to better define how important he really is.

Fan Views:
Most fans on this site like BBD and want him back.  I have even seen the extreme of “no BBD = Lakers dynasty” posted a few times.  I for one have been on the opposite end of the general spectrum, and I know I’m not completely alone. 

Improvements & Positives:
Without KG & Leon available, BBD stepped in and played major minutes during the regular season and playoffs.  As a result he was able to showcase an improved jumpshot, and increase his production as a result of his increased minutes.  BBD has shown hustle and the ability to play exteneded minutes without major drop-off.  His footwork improved a bit, and so did his FG%.  Many have taken such improvements and tried to extrapolate them out over his career, and thus determine his worth.

Limitations  & Negatives:
When “payday” wasn’t on the horizon, BBD was known to have shown up without proper conditioning.  If he were to receive a multi-year contract there is a legitimate concern that his conditioning will once again drop off.  Unfortunately for BBD, he needs to be in very good shape to be effective.  Also, at his height/weight/length he is better adapt to playing centers. 

(Pic not coming in clear, but basically team is -35 with BBD at PF, and +128 with him at center).
But is a 6’6” center the future of the Celtics?  He will have to dramatically improve his play at PF if wants to play that position fulltime.  Is his body suited for the PF position as many of the league’s PFs are actually just tall SFs?  All valid questions and concerns.

Statistical Analysis vs Gut Feelings:
We all remember the game winning shot in Orlando, as well as many other memorable BBD moments.  Overall most fans are fearful that he won’t be available to come off the bench next year.  But not everyone had the same “gut feelings” when watching him play.  I, like some people I know, felt he was a defensive liability on rotations and not a good asset to have on the floor.  However, all of these things are just how we felt from watching him play.

I would like though to take a look at some statistics that I feel have backed up what I have been seeing.  Don’t worry, I won’t be selecting very random statistics to prove a point, but instead focus on the overall picture:


“ON Court” was when BBD was playing, and “OFF Court” was when he was on the bench.  Some categories are redundant because they are a summation, but in only ONE category were the Celtics better off with BBD actually playing:  Offensive Rebounds.  This was off-set by the overall decrease in rebounds.  Because BBD played significant minutes these numbers aren’t just flukes.  The most egregious statistic, IMO, is the point differential.  If the Celtics played a full 48 minute game w/o BBD then there would have been a 7.3 point swing in the opponents favor.

But, as we all know, BBD’s value is as an energy bench guy who is able to spread the floor and eat up minutes.  But is he the best option?  Many people’s guts say “yes”.  Mine said “no”.  But let’s take a look:

Below are the statistics of when BBD replaced either Garnett or Perkins:


Just like we determined above, BBD is a better replacement at Center (+28 points on that unit).  However, despite playing alongside Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and Perkins, the entire unit was outscored by the opposing team with BBD in there. 

What happens if we replace BBD with another big?  Scalabrine isn’t the best backup PF/C out there, but he is on the team, so let’s take a look at how “Scally” fits in:


Surprisingly, the Celtics are better off with Scalabrine as an equivalent backup in BOTH positions.  His +/- is greater, which was accomplished in less minutes than BBD.

Direction of Celtics:
The Celtics want to win now.  They want veteran players, with a mix of inexpensive but productive youth.  The Celtics are avoiding burdensome contracts while giving themselves the flexibility to trade for or pickup off the FA market an impact player.

Conclusion:
The conclusion is whatever you want to write in response to my post. 

Personally my conclusion is this:  The Celtics have 2 great centers (Perkins with Wallace as a backup), and that is more than most any team can claim.  Due to salary cap restrictions no team can be immune to injuries.  But even so, I don’t think tying up more than $2mil a year on BBD to play 6 minutes a game (as a backup to Scalabrine) is the route to take.  With Scally as the 4th big, I’d feel comfortable trying out a young guy to eat up minutes.  Statistically, and likely by my gut feeling too, that young guy would provide more value than BBD.  Again, I’ll take BBD for 2mil or less if there is no-one else, but I’m not convinced it is wise to tie up any future money on him.  I hope he gets good money in Detroit and an opportunity to shine.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:52:14 AM by Spilling Green Dye »

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 10:34:51 AM »

Offline Prof. Clutch

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2199
  • Tommy Points: 237
  • Mind Games
<Post to Come, figure out how to add pictures>

Weirdest first post ever.  I'm expecting big things from that picture.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 10:50:24 AM »

Offline Redz

  • Punner
  • Global Moderator
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31778
  • Tommy Points: 3847
  • Yup
Heck of a first post.

TP
Yup

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 10:57:08 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20738
  • Tommy Points: 2365
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.

It'd be interesting to see splits on those stats from the 2nd half of the season (especially post-KG) and the playoffs.  The big counterargument to what you're showing is that BBD was legitimately lousy out there for the first 2 months or so, and then steadily improved as he got more minutes.  I agree though that while Glen made some big plays for us, most of his perceived value comes from potential and not actual performance. 

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 11:01:37 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Tommy Points: 115
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.

It'd be interesting to see splits on those stats from the 2nd half of the season (especially post-KG) and the playoffs.  The big counterargument to what you're showing is that BBD was legitimately lousy out there for the first 2 months or so, and then steadily improved as he got more minutes.  I agree though that while Glen made some big plays for us, most of his perceived value comes from potential and not actual performance. 

Thanks.  Yeah I was a bit surprised by Scal's performance when I dug deeper.  I was thinking the same thing though regarding the split in the season, but unfortunately I couldn't find it.  If anyone does, please let me know.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 11:04:07 AM »

Offline Prof. Clutch

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2199
  • Tommy Points: 237
  • Mind Games
I said I was expecting big things from that picture and you certainly stepped up to the plate.  When I originally read the thread title and then clicked on it to only find nothing but a promise that a picture was coming, I was honestly expecting that you this was going to be a comical thread.  I thought you were going to post a picture of Big Baby eating a hot dog or something.

Very good analysis.  I think you've broken it down quite well.  I personally hope they do resign Baby at a cost that is good for both him and the team.  His knowledge of the system is a great asset (Though I have made the case for Scal as the 4th big in other threads.)

Keep posting stuff like this and you'll soon join Reggies Ghost as the other poster whose Tommy Points outnumber his posts.  Congrats.  TP from me and welcome to the blog.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 11:11:27 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 11:12:41 AM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.

It'd be interesting to see splits on those stats from the 2nd half of the season (especially post-KG) and the playoffs.  The big counterargument to what you're showing is that BBD was legitimately lousy out there for the first 2 months or so, and then steadily improved as he got more minutes.  I agree though that while Glen made some big plays for us, most of his perceived value comes from potential and not actual performance. 

Thanks.  Yeah I was a bit surprised by Scal's performance when I dug deeper.  I was thinking the same thing though regarding the split in the season, but unfortunately I couldn't find it.  If anyone does, please let me know.
You could just use the month to month splits, I know those are floating around.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 11:37:24 AM »

Offline Casperian

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3501
  • Tommy Points: 545
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Agreed, these stats don´t prove anything, imo.

And Baby´s "on court/off court" stats show that the team plays worse with him in the lineup? Well, no ****. He played most of his minutes when KG was out with an injury, or as his backup, so it`s no wonder that the team`s overall stats go down with him in the lineup.
It would be interesting to see some advanced stats-comparisons with Baby-lineups (only for the time KG was out) against other teams lineups, or stats of the "difference in production" from KG to Baby compared to the "difference in production" other backup 4s give their respective teams when their Franchise PF goes down (which I think is impossible to measure).
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 11:57:44 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Tommy Points: 115
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Agreed, these stats don´t prove anything, imo.

And Baby´s "on court/off court" stats show that the team plays worse with him in the lineup? Well, no ****. He played most of his minutes when KG was out with an injury, or as his backup, so it`s no wonder that the team`s overall stats go down with him in the lineup.
It would be interesting to see some advanced stats-comparisons with Baby-lineups (only for the time KG was out) against other teams lineups, or stats of the "difference in production" from KG to Baby compared to the "difference in production" other backup 4s give their respective teams when their Franchise PF goes down (which I think is impossible to measure).

Statistics never tell the whole picture.  But I don't think the sampling size is too small to discount.  You have a point regarding the On/Off statistics, which is why I compared him to Scally later on.  You could compare BBD to Powe even and find the same trend:  BBD is not the best sub at PF/C.  Unfortunately Powe's injury excludes him from my future analysis.

My main point is this:  I've seen so many people on this board over-inflate BBD's value that I thought I'd present a different view.  Some may agree, some may disagree, but as long as a different angle is seen then I'm happy.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 12:08:21 PM »

Offline Casperian

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3501
  • Tommy Points: 545
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Agreed, these stats don´t prove anything, imo.

And Baby´s "on court/off court" stats show that the team plays worse with him in the lineup? Well, no ****. He played most of his minutes when KG was out with an injury, or as his backup, so it`s no wonder that the team`s overall stats go down with him in the lineup.
It would be interesting to see some advanced stats-comparisons with Baby-lineups (only for the time KG was out) against other teams lineups, or stats of the "difference in production" from KG to Baby compared to the "difference in production" other backup 4s give their respective teams when their Franchise PF goes down (which I think is impossible to measure).

Statistics never tell the whole picture.  But I don't think the sampling size is too small to discount.  You have a point regarding the On/Off statistics, which is why I compared him to Scally later on.  You could compare BBD to Powe even and find the same trend:  BBD is not the best sub at PF/C.  Unfortunately Powe's injury excludes him from my future analysis.

My main point is this:  I've seen so many people on this board over-inflate BBD's value that I thought I'd present a different view.  Some may agree, some may disagree, but as long as a different angle is seen then I'm happy.

First you compare 360 minutes to 80 minutes, then you compare 50 minutes to 110 minutes. Considering that you always need two teams to play the game, that sample size is way too small. And this doesn`t account for his improvement over the last year. I also don`t see stats about hustle plays or crucial buckets with the game on the line.

You could also look through the forum, and find ~100 "Powe vs Davis" threads, were this topic has been debated to death. There`s a reason why most people on this board want Baby back (at a reasonable price), and that reason certainly isn`t lack of time we spent to discuss his game. If you factor in what other options are available, and the legit health concerns about our first three big men, the Davis extension quickly becomes a no-brainer, imo.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 12:13:19 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2939
  • Tommy Points: 235
  • 36 charges and counting..
4 Million a year.

That looked like a lot of work. :-\
Little Fockers 1.5/10
Gulliver's Travels 1/10
Grown Ups -20/10
Tron Legacy 6.5/10

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 12:18:06 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19003
  • Tommy Points: 1833
What I find interesting is how many people were going overboard to bring back Posey and would overpay him quite a bit because of how he helped us during the playoffs. Baby played better than Posey this past playoffs compared to Posey's 2008 run, and some are even reluctant to give him a $4 million contract. Hard to understand. Heck, Posey was even worse this year during the playoffs. But if not mistaken he was a bit hurt, but Baby wasn't fully healthy either.

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 12:20:16 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2939
  • Tommy Points: 235
  • 36 charges and counting..
Well that's because Posey actually left.  Once he left his value went through the roof.
Little Fockers 1.5/10
Gulliver's Travels 1/10
Grown Ups -20/10
Tron Legacy 6.5/10

Re: The True Value of BBD ?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 12:23:10 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3220
  • Tommy Points: 183
Great analysis - TP.  Interesting especially to see BBD's performance compared to Air Intangibles'.  Gives a little glimpse into the sort of stuff the front office looks at that makes them value Scal the way they do.
Looka at the total minutes of that comparison though. It is such a small sample size that the numbers are not statistically significant.

Agreed, these stats don´t prove anything, imo.

And Baby´s "on court/off court" stats show that the team plays worse with him in the lineup? Well, no ****. He played most of his minutes when KG was out with an injury, or as his backup, so it`s no wonder that the team`s overall stats go down with him in the lineup.
It would be interesting to see some advanced stats-comparisons with Baby-lineups (only for the time KG was out) against other teams lineups, or stats of the "difference in production" from KG to Baby compared to the "difference in production" other backup 4s give their respective teams when their Franchise PF goes down (which I think is impossible to measure).

Agreed.  Of course BBD is a downgrade to KG.  That's pretty much a given.  But is he a solid backup PF/C who can shoot the jumper and play some D against the heavies?  Yes.  I would have to question ANY statistic that claims that Scalabrine is a better player without explaining how the statistic is derived.  And if that's based on purely plus/minus when Scalabrine played such limited minutes, then I'm not buying into it.