I love Tony Allen

[davemonsterband]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

There's no rationalization you can use to validate Tony Allen not being an idiot on the floor. If you can't see that plain as day you see something most of us don't. It's like everyone calling someone annoying and someone else saying he's not, nobody's at fault, but it's hard to understand.

  I was just debating statistics. I prefaced my post with "I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance)" for a reason. I do think he does a lot of dumb things on the court. But how turnover prone is he? How much of his turnover issue is due to playing with a pg who isn't a decent ballhandler? I don't see why you can't debate these issues without offending the "TA's an idiot" crowd.

Stats don't backup dribbling the ball off your foot, jumping out at 3 pt shooters in big games with no time left on the clock. Bonehead plays make us "TA's an idiot" people. It's how he turns the ball over, not the fact that he does it. Let alone the walking back on D shrugging his shoulders cranky face he consistently wears.

[mgent]

Less minutes help someones case? Well Mikki Moore didn't play what did you expect him to do?

My point is, there's a REASON he got so few minutes despite us so obviously needing a backup wing; he had a lot of mental mistakes. Probably had the same mistakes in practice. Had a lot of mistakes during the end of the season as well as the Chicago series. Mistakes that gets him a higher TO rate than Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

Think about it this way; his defensive choices sometimes were so poor that we would rather have a backcourt of 2 PG's and Ray playing SF than Tony on court. And I don't even think that's a bad decision on Doc's part.

Ever think the REASON was Garnett and Powe were injured so we needed another guy over 6'4" out there?
Jeez.

[mgent]

The fact is, we would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen.

Prove it.

[mgent]

I don't go for that end of the Game 4 or 6 or whatever it was against Chicago where he threw up 2 bricks.   There were 5 seconds left on the shot clock, the ball should have been in Paul or Ray's hands.  That is an unfair example to give about Tony.  That is what I am talking about.  People incorrectly estimate his role.  He misses 2 shots at the end of a playoff game and he is the worst player in the world.  Really.  Tony Allen is the captain of our team? I thought that was Paul.

I remember those 2 bricks.  I also remember Tommy scolding the team for playing so badly that Tony HAD to take those shots.  Not his fault.

[Mr October]

tony allen is more mistake prone then an average player on both offense and defense. He hasn't reached his "potential" for years now. This is not a player we can count on.

[Roy Hobbs]

The fact is, we would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen.

Prove it.

The only playoff wins he played more than five minutes in were games we won by 23+.  In the one game where he played 5+ minutes in a close game, we lost.

His garbage time contributions weren't necessary to our championship.

[mgent]

The fact is, we would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen.

Prove it.

The only playoff wins he played more than five minutes in were games we won by 23+.  In the one game where he played 5+ minutes in a close game, we lost.

His garbage time contributions weren't necessary to our championship.

Still, nothing is certain my friend.

[BballTim]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

There's no rationalization you can use to validate Tony Allen not being an idiot on the floor. If you can't see that plain as day you see something most of us don't. It's like everyone calling someone annoying and someone else saying he's not, nobody's at fault, but it's hard to understand.

  I was just debating statistics. I prefaced my post with "I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance)" for a reason. I do think he does a lot of dumb things on the court. But how turnover prone is he? How much of his turnover issue is due to playing with a pg who isn't a decent ballhandler? I don't see why you can't debate these issues without offending the "TA's an idiot" crowd.

Stats don't backup dribbling the ball off your foot, jumping out at 3 pt shooters in big games with no time left on the clock. Bonehead plays make us "TA's an idiot" people. It's how he turns the ball over, not the fact that he does it. Let alone the walking back on D shrugging his shoulders cranky face he consistently wears.

  Listen, I didn't bring up the stats. I just pointed out that someone who brings the ball to the hole a lot will generally have a higher turnover rate than someone who shoots the ball from the outside. I'd hardly call that a ringing endorsement of Tony Allen.

  If you're so bothered by people using stats in a "TA's an idiot" discussion then why didn't you object to the post I quoted with Ray, Paul and Tony's turnover rates?

[liam]

I would rather the Celtics played 4 on 5 than have TA on the court.

[star18]

If anything his stats in the Orlando series are an advantage to Tony.   11 minutes? What do you want him to do in 11 minutes?  Score 63 like Jordan? That is ridiculous that he only played 11 minutes in that series.  Doc should have put him on the floor alot more, we had nothing to lose, and we didn't win anyway. 

This doesn't really make any sense.  The series went to Game 7, how did we have "nothing to lose" by playing TA more?  It's not like the C's were getting blown out.  And saying we lost anyway so he should have played more?  By that logic, we should have played Walker and Pruitt 25 minutes each because in hindsight we lost anyway and could have given them playoff experience. 

And no one is expecting Tony Allen to light up the scoreboard, but in a playoff series, in limited minutes, we simply ask that the player not be actively bad.  TA is actively bad.

We had nothing to lose because KG wasn't there so it would have been very difficult to get to the finals.    Look at what the Lakers did in the Houston series, threw in the towel in Games 4 & 6 in Houston so they could win in 7 Games.   We made the mistake in the Orlando series to try hard to win Games 3,4 & 6.   We won Game 4, but when the starters played heavy minutes in 3 & 6 they fell flat in Game 7.  We had no chance in the world to go to the finals on a 7 man rotation.   Mikki & Tony had to play case closed.  I don't care if they were pathetic in practice and I don't care about the bonehead plays they made.  The fact is they try hard when they are out there and our starters needed rest period. 

[davemonsterband]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

There's no rationalization you can use to validate Tony Allen not being an idiot on the floor. If you can't see that plain as day you see something most of us don't. It's like everyone calling someone annoying and someone else saying he's not, nobody's at fault, but it's hard to understand.

  I was just debating statistics. I prefaced my post with "I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance)" for a reason. I do think he does a lot of dumb things on the court. But how turnover prone is he? How much of his turnover issue is due to playing with a pg who isn't a decent ballhandler? I don't see why you can't debate these issues without offending the "TA's an idiot" crowd.

Stats don't backup dribbling the ball off your foot, jumping out at 3 pt shooters in big games with no time left on the clock. Bonehead plays make us "TA's an idiot" people. It's how he turns the ball over, not the fact that he does it. Let alone the walking back on D shrugging his shoulders cranky face he consistently wears.

  Listen, I didn't bring up the stats. I just pointed out that someone who brings the ball to the hole a lot will generally have a higher turnover rate than someone who shoots the ball from the outside. I'd hardly call that a ringing endorsement of Tony Allen.

  If you're so bothered by people using stats in a "TA's an idiot" discussion then why didn't you object to the post I quoted with Ray, Paul and Tony's turnover rates?

I'm not bothered, I just can't believe you're in any way not calling him a flat out idiot. Difference of opinion I guess. It's too black and white to me.

[Greeny]

WE DONT HATE TA - JUST HIS SHOTS, TURNOVERS, DEFENSIVE FOULS, PUTTING HIS HEAD DOWN AND DRIVING TO THE LANE AND THROWING UP SOME GARBAGE.......
Hate the player, not the person! Haha

[cdif911]

I think TA could be a very nice player on a very bad team... He's a flawed player, but he can score in bunches if he's the focus of the offense (remember before the big 3, he put up 20 ppg for a stretch, then stupidly dunked on the continuation...) I think a Charlotte or an OKC or a Memphis would find a lot of value in a guy like TA - exciting, flashy... just not the brightest bulb on the holiday tree sometimes

Its funny, he gets the label defensive specialist, but I don't buy it - how many times has he been on the other team's best player late in a game and fouled on a jumper...

but if TA is part of our squad, I support him, I just hope he plays better... he is better than Gerald Green if its a consolation

[Steve Weinman]

he is better than Gerald Green if its a consolation

cdif, given your history of starting some of our more entertaining threads, I'm looking forward to your upcoming endeavor - "The Most Uninspiring Consolation Prizes of All Time" - just so I can see where "better than Gerald Green" ranks on the list.

-sw

[nickagneta]

he is better than Gerald Green if its a consolation

cdif, given your history of starting some of our more entertaining threads, I'm looking forward to your upcoming endeavor - "The Most Uninspiring Consolation Prizes of All Time" - just so I can see where "better than Gerald Green" ranks on the list.

-sw

My guess Steve is it's somewhere right in between "cuter than Rosie O'Donnell" and "nicer than OJ Simpson".