I love Tony Allen

[GKC]

I do not agree.    Game 4 NBA Finals 2008.   2:14 to go.  Lakers are up 73-61.  From the start of the game the Lakers were up 24 early in the 2nd.  We kept battling, and battling for 2 quarters and couldn't get within single digits.  With just 2 minutes to go in the 3rd all the Lakers had to do was trade baskets and they would have taken a double digit lead into the 4th.  They could have won that game.  You don't know. Doc puts in Tony and boom within 2 minutes the lead is down to 2 points, something the Celtics were trying to for half a game and couldn't get it done.   With Tony in the game we did it in 2 minutes.  It was the most important 2:14 in Celtics basketball history in the past 22 years because it was the run that finally gave us the chance to get over on the Lakers and finally beat them again.  It was because Tony was on the court, he brings an added dimension. The rest of the guys on the floor played great during that run, and the other 4 guys got psyched up knowing Tony was in the game.

On the foul on Ben Gordon, Tony had good defense on Ben, enough to make Ben step out of bounds, so I don't go for that play.  Just because the refs didn't call it right doesn't mean Tony made a bad play.

And when you say we want him to take the Posey 18-25 minutes role now I do not agree. We wanted him to do that last year.  This year we do not need him for that role.  That was last year. Now we have Big Sheed.

Sheed can take the minutes of baby and powe.

How is sheed going to take the minutes of Ray and Paul? who need to rest?

+/- doesn't neccessarily win all. You need adjustments. That stat is very inconsistent. Watch the game tape. Tony has 2 3 touches the entire sequence (and one was a rebound that he passed off). He was not in the offense that got us the lead back (that was Posey, House and PJ) and it wasn't like there was amazing defense to be done on his end (he was guarding Sasha for the most part).

Here's a more telling stat of how badly TA has played this year's playoffs.

We all know what he did in the Chicago series. Against Orlando?

11 minutes in 7 games with 2 DNP's.
These were games where Paul Pierce averaged 40mpg and Ray Allen averaged 40+, including a game where he played 46 minutes.

2 Games in which Paul Pierce had foul trouble, Doc opted to go with Scal instead.

That's the point. We need the wing position like Posey to take the mintues of Ray and Pierce, because we can't have them play 40+ minutes a game. Sheed doesn't fix that. Tony was supposed to and he couldn't. Still can't.

[star18]

If anything his stats in the Orlando series are an advantage to Tony.   11 minutes? What do you want him to do in 11 minutes?  Score 63 like Jordan? That is ridiculous that he only played 11 minutes in that series.  Doc should have put him on the floor alot more, we had nothing to lose, and we didn't win anyway. 

The 2:14 run in Game 4 was important, yes Tony only got 2-3 touches but his presence on the court was important during that time because Tony is a wacky and unique player. You never know what he is going to do, and I'm sure the Lakers got a bit confused and were taken by suprise with him on the court so yes he played a very important role in that 10-0 run.

The trying to be Posey thing is and always has been unfair to Tony.  Posey is taller and can guard the bigger guys that Tony can't.  Now Sheed can guard the bigger guys, and when we are up 25 against Milwaukee in the 3rd, Paul and Ray should have towels over their head, and Tony should be in the game, making some steals and doing some fancy dunks.

[star18]

Doc shouldn't have opted to go with Scal, he clearly didn't know what he was doing.  Scals is OK, but he wasn't in uniform during the title run in 07-08 and Tony was, so Tony should have seen alot more minutes than he did.

[blueygreen]

If anything his stats in the Orlando series are an advantage to Tony.   11 minutes? What do you want him to do in 11 minutes?  Score 63 like Jordan? That is ridiculous that he only played 11 minutes in that series.  Doc should have put him on the floor alot more, we had nothing to lose, and we didn't win anyway. 

The 2:14 run in Game 4 was important, yes Tony only got 2-3 touches but his presence on the court was important during that time because Tony is a wacky and unique player. You never know what he is going to do, and I'm sure the Lakers got a bit confused and were taken by suprise with him on the court so yes he played a very important role in that 10-0 run.

The trying to be Posey thing is and always has been unfair to Tony.  Posey is taller and can guard the bigger guys that Tony can't.  Now Sheed can guard the bigger guys, and when we are up 25 against Milwaukee in the 3rd, Paul and Ray should have towels over their head, and Tony should be in the game, making some steals and doing some fancy dunks.

Hoist by your own petard there old boy.

Don't get my wrong, I'm a Tony Allen fanboy and I'm sure it's been quite well documented in various threads on CelticsBlog. It's just incredible how polarised the feelings on Tony are around here, I think most people either overrate or underrate him as a contributor and it leads to these discussions.

[blueygreen]

Doc shouldn't have opted to go with Scal, he clearly didn't know what he was doing.  Scals is OK, but he wasn't in uniform during the title run in 07-08 and Tony was, so Tony should have seen alot more minutes than he did.

Well Pierce wasn't in a green uniform when we won the title in 06 so I think Larry, McHale and Parish, etc. should have seen more minutes than Paul in 07-08.

[star18]

"Hoist by your own petard there old boy"  What?
"won the title in 06 so I think Larry, McHale and Parish"  Really.

Well all I have to say is this.  Tony Allen isn't Michael Jordan and we didn't win the NBA title last year.  So what. 

[GKC]

Less minutes help someones case? Well Mikki Moore didn't play what did you expect him to do?

My point is, there's a REASON he got so few minutes despite us so obviously needing a backup wing; he had a lot of mental mistakes. Probably had the same mistakes in practice. Had a lot of mistakes during the end of the season as well as the Chicago series. Mistakes that gets him a higher TO rate than Paul Pierce or Ray Allen.

Think about it this way; his defensive choices sometimes were so poor that we would rather have a backcourt of 2 PG's and Ray playing SF than Tony on court. And I don't even think that's a bad decision on Doc's part.

[LooseCannon]

During the regular season, Doc Rivers has shown a willingness to play Tony Allen 18-19 minutes per game when he is healthy, although that number comes down in the playoffs.  Unfortunately, much of his injury stretch coincided with when KG was out.  Had he been available, Pierce and Allen would have played fewer minutes down the stretch.

Whether or not TA is actually a good player may be less important than Doc Rivers' willingness to actually stick him in the game when he is available.  The question I can't answer is whether or not Doc would have been more willing to use Allen in the playoffs if he hadn't been working his way back from injury.

[GKC]

He was willing to play scal who was very close to wearing a helmet.

[BballTim]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

[davemonsterband]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

There's no rationalization you can use to validate Tony Allen not being an idiot on the floor. If you can't see that plain as day you see something most of us don't. It's like everyone calling someone annoying and someone else saying he's not, nobody's at fault, but it's hard to understand.

[BballTim]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

  I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance) but you can't look at those numbers in a vacuum. For starters, Ray is mainly a jump shooter and TA mainly goes to the hoop. That accounts for a large chunk of the difference between them. Remember, you're talking about the percentages of their possessions that end in a turnover. But consider how their possessions end. 70% of Ray's possessions end in jump shots or free throws and 30% end in a shot close to the basket or an assist. 40% of Tony's possessions end in a jump shot or ft and 60% end in a close shot or an assist. So much of the difference in Ray and Tony's assist rates are due to the type of game that they play.

  Another problem of Tony's this year was that he was frequently paired on the court with Eddie so he was expected to do much more of the ballhandling on offense than he really should. If we signed a real backup pg TA's turnover rate would decrease.

There's no rationalization you can use to validate Tony Allen not being an idiot on the floor. If you can't see that plain as day you see something most of us don't. It's like everyone calling someone annoying and someone else saying he's not, nobody's at fault, but it's hard to understand.

  I was just debating statistics. I prefaced my post with "I don't think TA is a basketball genious (look at the Gordon foul, for instance)" for a reason. I do think he does a lot of dumb things on the court. But how turnover prone is he? How much of his turnover issue is due to playing with a pg who isn't a decent ballhandler? I don't see why you can't debate these issues without offending the "TA's an idiot" crowd.

[Edgar]

well... 78% of the board dont

of course we mostly used to think blount contract was fair...

[CDawg834]

If anything his stats in the Orlando series are an advantage to Tony.   11 minutes? What do you want him to do in 11 minutes?  Score 63 like Jordan? That is ridiculous that he only played 11 minutes in that series.  Doc should have put him on the floor alot more, we had nothing to lose, and we didn't win anyway. 

This doesn't really make any sense.  The series went to Game 7, how did we have "nothing to lose" by playing TA more?  It's not like the C's were getting blown out.  And saying we lost anyway so he should have played more?  By that logic, we should have played Walker and Pruitt 25 minutes each because in hindsight we lost anyway and could have given them playoff experience. 

And no one is expecting Tony Allen to light up the scoreboard, but in a playoff series, in limited minutes, we simply ask that the player not be actively bad.  TA is actively bad.

[footey]

Tony Allen is an OK backup at the 2, who plays good defense (not great), and can go to the hole. His athleticism seems to be an asset on the fast break with Rondo. Problem is, neither he nor Rondo are outside shooters, so it is rare that they are put on the court together.

I think Tony can be better this year than last, basically because he will be one year further removed from a serious knee injury.