I'm questioning Ainge

[Fafnir]

Hes been getting offers already, there is no way we are not picking him back up after he is healed from his injury. And this quote from Powe's Agent:

I don’t want people thinking that we’re looking for sympathy, because Leon is going to play again. The Celtics are aware that he’s ahead of schedule

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/20090702leon_powe_celtics_say_goodbyes/

Do you want Leon Powe on your team or Pruitt, T Allen, Giddens, and Walker who havent made any impact on this team in their careers?! Leon Powe, since he was a rookie, outperformed this guys. People are forgetting his talent, and that he can put up 20/10 numbers.

Tony has made an impact on the C's, probably not a positive one though  .

I think Pruitt/Walker/Giddens/Hudson are going to be fighting for two roster spots at the most. If we keep all four I'll be annoyed that they let Powe go. But if we resign Sheed, BBD, and another big I'd understand it. We'd be set at the front court in that scenario.

Leon Powe is hurt. This isn't a question of heart and bravery and celtic love... Leon is really injured and isn't going to be back until after the all-star break. Leon also got playing time as a rookie since he wasn't on a contending team, so i wouldn't say that he's ahead of JR, Gabe, and Billy becuase he's been "outplayed" those guys since his first year

Its pretty clear to me Leon deserves to be on this team more than Gabe, TA, and Scal. Cassell, House, Marbury, and now its looking like Hudson have all been brought in to take Pruitt's spot. TA is a mess. And Scal, until this year, is Veal.

I don't think deserves matters in the NBA. Its a matter of talent and what can you do for the team going forward. The uncertainty of how long Powe will be unable to play kills his value for the team except as a project type roster spot. Another consideration is that if the team is going to commit to Big Baby long term (with a contract) management might have decided to not keep a second undersized PF around.

Money also matters quite a bit, which is why Tony and Scal are staying. Waiving them would be a waste of the Wyc's money when we can/should be able to get value for them either in the regular season or a trade.

[mgent]

Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.

Well since there are just two of us posting in this thread supporting Ainge's I'll feel free to be a bit insulted by this. "I don't mean this at anyone directly" is a rather disingenous cop-out when you want to call out specific posters as being shills for management.

I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I am not "just rationalizing" whatever Ainge has done.

We shouldn't commit a roster spot or money on a project until we're done signing whatever impact FAs we can get. Powe might not be healthy enough to play at all next season.

If you think you think these two posts are the only pro Ainge posts on this topic today you're very wrong. There's been hundreds of posts on the main page and in the forums today on Powe. The majority are disheartened by the move, but there is a strong minority that has your exact argument.  So you can save your "disingenous cop-out" attack for someone else. This wasn't about you. The fact that you took "some" or even "many" to mean fafnir, well that's on you. Don't be so sensitive. If you're not a "shill" as you call it, then the post had nothing to do with you.

But why did you post it in this thread if it has nothing to do with me or xmuscularghandix? So its about people who've taken our position on the issue, but not the two of us right? Who are these people?

I suppose that's why I don't like it when people preface generic attacks on people with "this is not meant at anyone directly". Whenever someone steps up and says something in response, its on them for taking it personally, "I wasn't talking about you" etc.

I'm open to valid disagreements with my opinions or arguments. I've never said that Powe can't be valuable, or that you're a fool for thinking he could be big for this team if we brought him back. I understand and respect what you're saying with regards to Powe. I've loved his play for the C's these past two years that he's had the chance to play for a great tema.

But I feel like I'm being hit by a pretty broad brush for taking a position opposite of your. Especially since you're throwing a lot of past debates out there. Many of which occurred when I wasn't even active on this blog!

JohnnyRondo, you are 100% correct.  Most of the people who support the Powe-decisions are just scared to blame Ainge for everything because they don't want to look down on their team.  And the rest of them apparently can't notice how valuable Powe is, or they value money more than the championship.  I hate this has happened to my team, but i'm not gonna hide my feelings and give Ainge false-credit.  If this was any other team i'm sure these guys would be the first criticize the GM.  When Ainge trades for Allen and KG suddenly he's the best thing for giving us a banner.  But when we lose, it's the players fault, he can only do so much.  This man can apparently do no wrong!
And it's true that Ainge has made bad decisions in the past (several have already been listed).  It was stupid not to offer Posey a longer contract.  It was stupid to not to try to add more bench support LAST year.  He has done great things, but he needs to be held responsible for the not so great things.  That's just part of having responsibility.

[mgent]

I've stated this same argument in about three different threads. I think BudweiserCeltic summed it all up best.

I don't understand the outrage at all. There's no space for him at the moment, sad story but "crap" happens.

We have 11 players currently in our roster. Then we have Big Baby, that's 12. We plan to add another PF/C (Rasheed)... that's 13. We plan to add another SF (Ross, Hill, Barnes, etc.), that's 14. We are probably looking for another PG (Hudson, Marbury, etc.). That's 15.

Where does Powe and his massive injury fit at the moment? Nowhere. We could probably cur Pruitt, but it won't be to add an injured player... who knows, maybe he starts playing better. You can't make Pruitt the victim here, he deserves the chance to make the roster.

Before this happened, there were tons of speculations that this coming FA season, the Celtics will have to choose between Baby and Powe... by the majority this was an accepted turn of events, well we chose one. Too bad Powe is injured, but we're not a charity here.

I love Powe, but not extending him the QO and saying we won't offer him a contract until after we've finished filling out our bench makes sense. We don't know if Powe will be able to contribute at all this coming season.


You talk about Sam Cassell, but we didn't sign him until the summer FA was already all over and we had extra room. If we have only 14 players I'm sure Ainge will be calling Powe up about a minimum deal.

Your logic is lost on me.  Take a look back at that roster.  Powe is currently more talented and has more potential than Ross/Hill/Barnes, Marbury/Hudson, Walker, Pruitt, Giddens, Scalabrine, and Tony Allen.
So i don't see a spot for Powe either, i see 7.  And that's not even factoring in how much more valuable big men are to us at the moment (and in general), AND the fact that it's much less risky to keep someone who we know can play well with our team than to surf around the free market.

I think the Celtics have specific needs they need to fill. A backup SF, length at the 4/5 spot, and front court depth. Overall talent isn't our problem. Powe can only help with front court depth, and only if/when he recovers. In my mind this moves him from our 8th most important player, and best backup PF unless we sign Sheed/McDyess, and into end of the roster territory.

If he hadn't been hurt at the end of the season I'd say keeping him was more important than keeping BBD. His rebounding is very valuable at the 4. But he did get hurt and we don't know if he can contribute.

I'm all for filling those needs.  Powe should absolutely not be our 8th man at the moment.  But it would make more sense to drop the 15th man if we're gonna sign someone, and then Powe would be pushed further and further to the end of the bench until he comes back, or we find 15 guys more valuable than him.

[Amir]

If theres uncertainty in when he can play, why are other clubs calling him? A questionable offseason last year coupled with the issues on Leon Powe and Rajon Rondo has not sat too well with me. Im not quite there yet with the"Danny I Trust" motto. Bill Belichick only has that privilege around here.  

This is just a classless move at the end of it and leaves a bad taste. Ainge is deserving of his title in his playing days.

[LooseCannon]

Ainge got burned on Tony Allen and doesn't want another perennial injury risk who can't be counted on to be available.  He shouldn't be in any long-term plans.

So, the Celtics stuck Cassell on the bench as an insurance policy last year because they decided to go with a strategy of not spending too much on back-ups.  A lack of willingness to commit to doing the same for Powe seems to me to be a sign that Ainge is going to be much more aggressive than last year in attempting to fill out the bench.  Ainge didn't give Tony Allen a qualifying offer last year in the push to re-sign Posey, but ended up giving him a contract anyways even though some blogger dude seemed to think that spelled the end of Allen in green.

The way the roster could potentially go down, I think that re-signing Powe now means either potentially making a decision about Giddens or Walker before pre-season, or else relying on Doc Rivers to play them and not signing a veteran wing back-up.

[kenmaine]

I'm not getting a good feeling about the C's lately. Don't know what's up with Ainge. Some bad moves and decisions lately IMO- signing Cassell and Marbury, letting Posey go, publicly critizing Rondo(in order to save money down the road because he's po'd and signs elsewhere?), and maybe losing Leon.
This "it's a business" crap annoys me. No, it's also a sport and it's entertainment, and if it's strictly a business, then I'd rather read the [dang] Wall St. Journal.
For the C's to be stingy with a guy who's only going to make comparatively small money,and has proven to be very valuable, is strange to me, unless ownership is in financial trouble, and if they are, then they should sell the team. This is not the Pittsburgh Pirates or Minn. Twins, losing players because they can't afford them.
And how anyone(and this is not referring to any specific blogger, so don't get your panties in a bunch) can suggest keeping Pruitt and letting Leon go is mind-boggling to me.



 

[greenwise]

I would cut JR or Pruitt right away, they've shown very little in comparison with Powe. They have very little trade value and will not play at all next year. There you have two roster spots to fill with Powe and another free agent.

[vagrantwade]

Leon Powe is injured.

Period.

Move on. He would very literally be a waste of a roster space. Not giving him a QO does not mean we won't sign him. It means we won't sign him if another team signs him first.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I would cut JR or Pruitt right away, they've shown very little in comparison with Powe. They have very little trade value and will not play at all next year. There you have two roster spots to fill with Powe and another free agent.

So you're quite content with crushing someone else's dream then? Players that have every right to fight to earn a roster spot regardless of what you think of them. Healthy players at that.

[crownsy]

I've stated this same argument in about three different threads. I think BudweiserCeltic summed it all up best.

I don't understand the outrage at all. There's no space for him at the moment, sad story but "crap" happens.

We have 11 players currently in our roster. Then we have Big Baby, that's 12. We plan to add another PF/C (Rasheed)... that's 13. We plan to add another SF (Ross, Hill, Barnes, etc.), that's 14. We are probably looking for another PG (Hudson, Marbury, etc.). That's 15.

Where does Powe and his massive injury fit at the moment? Nowhere. We could probably cur Pruitt, but it won't be to add an injured player... who knows, maybe he starts playing better. You can't make Pruitt the victim here, he deserves the chance to make the roster.

Before this happened, there were tons of speculations that this coming FA season, the Celtics will have to choose between Baby and Powe... by the majority this was an accepted turn of events, well we chose one. Too bad Powe is injured, but we're not a charity here.

I love Powe, but not extending him the QO and saying we won't offer him a contract until after we've finished filling out our bench makes sense. We don't know if Powe will be able to contribute at all this coming season.


You talk about Sam Cassell, but we didn't sign him until the summer FA was already all over and we had extra room. If we have only 14 players I'm sure Ainge will be calling Powe up about a minimum deal.

Your logic is lost on me.  Take a look back at that roster.  Powe is currently more talented and has more potential than Ross/Hill/Barnes, Marbury/Hudson, Walker, Pruitt, Giddens, Scalabrine, and Tony Allen.
So i don't see a spot for Powe either, i see 7.  And that's not even factoring in how much more valuable big men are to us at the moment (and in general), AND the fact that it's much less risky to keep someone who we know can play well with our team than to surf around the free market.  Please stop your lame attempts to try and rationalize this poor decision.

yes, he is more talented than those guys. there is also a good chance that he won't suit up this year AT ALL.

Of course his agent is going to say that he's ahead of schedule, do you think he's going to come out and say different?

even if he's ahead of schedule, we're still talking about a christmas time return to basketball activities. Who knows how long after that until he's ready to contribute on a regular basis? and that assumes the Christmas return, which is the absolute best case scenario.

I love leon, i hope the way this shakes out is that we end up with 14 players on the roster, and at the end of the summer FA period we pick him up to sit on the bench until he's ready.

But as bud has pointed out we do not have alot of roster spots at the moment, and we need to stay flexable. I put the chances that any team actually offers a player who can't suit up until 3/4ths of the way through the year a contract this summer as nearly nil.

That's not to say i don't think teams haven't called leon, but i'm sure its just "when your ready, we will have interest" calls, not "we're looking to sign you to sit on our bench for free money on july 8th" calls.

All ainge said when asked about leon is that they have to stay flexible on roster spots. That's not the same as "we're never going to sign him" it just means we need to deal with players who will actually help us out next year first before we consider using a roster spot on an inactive player.



 

[jerrykid69]

It's Leon Powe, everyone needs to relax. I love what he did here, but he has knee problems. And quite frankly he isn't that good, he is a decent bench player. If the Celtics get Sheed, then Leon will be pushed back to never getting off the bench anyways. ITS LEON POWE, the Celtics will survive.

[BudweiserCeltic]

What I want to know is where is the support to keep Scal and TA around. If we're going to talk about risking a career/life in order to help the Celtics win then where's the support to keep Scal and TA around? Seems to me that pretty much everyone want both out of here as soon as possible.

[CoachBo]

Ok this is not meant at anyone directly, but I feel that many of the same people who are defending Ainge with the "business is business, we can't waste a roster spot" lingo, would be saying what a wise move it was for Danny to store Powe away as our 15th man and then when we prepare for the playoffs get this great gift of an experienced player who knows our system.

I feel some people just want to say that every decision Ainge makes is wise. Me on the other hand, I'll give him credit and blame. He was wise to bail on Jiri and trade him for a first rounder. He was wise to trade that first rounder for Rondo. He was wise after his guy Swift was off the board to pick Big Al. He was wise to sign Posey. He was wise to trade for a second rounder and pick up Powe. He was unwise to trade the Brandon Roy pick. He was unwise to draft Marcus Banks. he was unwise to pick POB over Birdman. He was unwise draft Giddens and Pruitt. He was unwise to trade Tony Battie. He was unwise to pay Mark Blount.

You can go back and forth, but I'm just saying that people should be more objective. How many teams have a 15th man that has the potential to make a difference in the playoffs? we could with Powe, so even if you didn't care about loyalty, it still makes sense to resign Powe and let him rehab as a Celtic and return as a Celtic.

Well since there are just two of us posting in this thread supporting Ainge's I'll feel free to be a bit insulted by this. "I don't mean this at anyone directly" is a rather disingenous cop-out when you want to call out specific posters as being shills for management.

I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty clearly. I am not "just rationalizing" whatever Ainge has done.

We shouldn't commit a roster spot or money on a project until we're done signing whatever impact FAs we can get. Powe might not be healthy enough to play at all next season.

If you think you think these two posts are the only pro Ainge posts on this topic today you're very wrong. There's been hundreds of posts on the main page and in the forums today on Powe. The majority are disheartened by the move, but there is a strong minority that has your exact argument.  So you can save your "disingenous cop-out" attack for someone else. This wasn't about you. The fact that you took "some" or even "many" to mean fafnir, well that's on you. Don't be so sensitive. If you're not a "shill" as you call it, then the post had nothing to do with you.

But why did you post it in this thread if it has nothing to do with me or xmuscularghandix? So its about people who've taken our position on the issue, but not the two of us right? Who are these people?

I suppose that's why I don't like it when people preface generic attacks on people with "this is not meant at anyone directly". Whenever someone steps up and says something in response, its on them for taking it personally, "I wasn't talking about you" etc.

I'm open to valid disagreements with my opinions or arguments. I've never said that Powe can't be valuable, or that you're a fool for thinking he could be big for this team if we brought him back. I understand and respect what you're saying with regards to Powe. I've loved his play for the C's these past two years that he's had the chance to play for a great tema.

But I feel like I'm being hit by a pretty broad brush for taking a position opposite of your. Especially since you're throwing a lot of past debates out there. Many of which occurred when I wasn't even active on this blog!

JohnnyRondo, you are 100% correct.  Most of the people who support the Powe-decisions are just scared to blame Ainge for everything because they don't want to look down on their team.  And the rest of them apparently can't notice how valuable Powe is, or they value money more than the championship.  I hate this has happened to my team, but i'm not gonna hide my feelings and give Ainge false-credit.  If this was any other team i'm sure these guys would be the first criticize the GM.  When Ainge trades for Allen and KG suddenly he's the best thing for giving us a banner.  But when we lose, it's the players fault, he can only do so much.  This man can apparently do no wrong!
And it's true that Ainge has made bad decisions in the past (several have already been listed).  It was stupid not to offer Posey a longer contract.  It was stupid to not to try to add more bench support LAST year.  He has done great things, but he needs to be held responsible for the not so great things.  That's just part of having responsibility.

Gee, I wish I'd thought of that last paragraph.

 

Unfortunately, the timing of Leon's injury was terrible for him.

But with that said, the Powe decision was definitely the right one. We have to retain all our options as we build a bench, because Danny unquestionably blew it there last summer. The non-tender is absolutely the correct move. This is no time to be handing out free money to fan favorities or stiffs. Keep that latter point in mind, Danny, as you ponder feeding your addiction to 7-foot bums during the summer league. I'm mentioning no names.

 

[Chris]

Alright so you had room to keep Sam Cassell on our club so he could sit on the sidelines and watch Doc coach (maybe not the best one to watch), but you dont have room for Leon Powe? You can sign Scal to 5 years 3 mil but you cant make Powe an offer...Powe has outplayed Brian Scalabrine tremendously as a Celtic and he has been here one less year.

I dont know about the extent of the injury and how drastic it will affect his play, but I do know that Powe will come to work everyday. He laced it up when his team needed him and reinjured a knee that he put on the line despite it plaguing his career. I want him on my team. Why is it that when athletes make business decisions they get destroyed and played off as greedy and money loving, but when GMs make business decisons its smart?
 
And I really didnt understand the Rondo talk and rumors. This offseason, Ainge has put the Celtics on T.V. for the wrong reasons. Trying to trade your franchise "top 5" PG  and talking smack about him on the radio? Is it that month Danny? That should not represent our management. The decisions until these two have been great, so im not counting you out entirely but stay out of the spotlight. The players put the work in to win a championship, and Leon has clearly done so here.

I think you are misunderstanding the fact that they didn't give Powe a qualifying offer.  It only would make sense for them to make that offer if they expected Powe to be getting other offers for more than the minimum.  At this point, that is very unlikely, due to his injury.  So by not extending a QO, they can now wait out the summer and see how the knee heals, and also spend time filling out the roster with players who will actually see the court this year.  Then in August, they can revisit it, and if the knee is on track, they can talk about bringing him back.

I know we would all like to see Powe get paid and locked up right now, but this is a business, and it would have been a terrible business move to extend the qualifying offer, because Powe would have just immediately accepted it, rehabbed this year on the C's dime, and been an UFA next year.

[CoachBo]

The bottom line, I am afraid, is that if you're more loyal to an individual player as a fan than you are a franchise, you're going to end up disappointed.

All the hand-wringing surprises me. This decision by Ainge was a no-brainer.