Don't you think Bill Walker and JR Giddens can really improve our team?

[slamtheking]

One can't depend on them, not after they offered so little as rookies ... not while the team is a legitimate title contender.

I want to see the Celtics sign two reliable wings to play ahead of them and come off the bench for next season.

If Walker and/or Giddens are truly good enough, then they'll be able to beat out those veterans for those minutes. No need to give them minutes they don't deserve.

Well, I don't think so. Doc's a bit antique about rookies, he simply will not play them the time they deserve. He will prefer a washed up veteran than a promising, athletic young player. Even in Big Al's first years Doc was recluctant to play him.

Odd, CoachBo's quote's different from what's above.

I'm in agreement they need to sign at least one good vet wing player so that Walker and Giddens are depended upon for production.  I like Walker's energy off the bench last year and would have liked to have seen what Giddens could do if given minutes outside of garbage time. 
Doc's track record with playing young players is consistant-->he doesn't play them unless he's left with no options.  Every single young player on the C's that has shown they can play has done so only because Doc couldn't find a crappy vet to put in the game first.  Al, Perk, Gomes, Powe, Rondo --> all stuck behind players with more time in the league but not better than them.  Once they got the time, they showed they could play.  Walker and Giddens might turn out to be flops for Danny (which would be going against the trend for him) but I would never base their lack of minutes on Doc's evaluation of their skills.  BBD was the one rookie that didn't have to sit behind vets his rookie year (until PJ was signed) and look how he was able to contribute with that playing time.

[slamtheking]

One can't depend on them, not after they offered so little as rookies ... not while the team is a legitimate title contender.

I want to see the Celtics sign two reliable wings to play ahead of them and come off the bench for next season.

If Walker and/or Giddens are truly good enough, then they'll be able to beat out those veterans for those minutes. No need to give them minutes they don't deserve.

Well, I don't think so. Doc's a bit antique about rookies, he simply will not play them the time they deserve. He will prefer a washed up veteran than a promising, athletic young player. Even in Big Al's first years Doc was recluctant to play him.

Odd, CoachBo's quote's different from what's above.

I'm in agreement they need to sign at least one good vet wing player so that Walker and Giddens are depended upon for production.  I like Walker's energy off the bench last year and would have liked to have seen what Giddens could do if given minutes outside of garbage time. 
Doc's track record with playing young players is consistant-->he doesn't play them unless he's left with no options.  Every single young player on the C's that has shown they can play has done so only because Doc couldn't find a crappy vet to put in the game first.  Al, Perk, Gomes, Powe, Rondo --> all stuck behind players with more time in the league but not better than them.  Once they got the time, they showed they could play.  Walker and Giddens might turn out to be flops for Danny (which would be going against the trend for him) but I would never base their lack of minutes on Doc's evaluation of their skills.  BBD was the one rookie that didn't have to sit behind vets his rookie year (until PJ was signed) and look how he was able to contribute with that playing time.

seems the quoting process is out of synch.

[Michael Anthony]

Just a side note, I do not understand Doc's bias against younger role players.

Big Baby played a big role as a rookie during our championship run, and Courtney Lee started at shooting guard for the Eastern Conference Champions this season.

I think we can all agree that Walker would have provided at least as much as Moore and T. Allen (Nothing) down the stretch.

[wiley]

Yes Walker is a better long range solution than TA at SF; but that is not saying much. He is smaller that I thought and looks to be about the same height as giddens who is a 2. We still need a solid 6'-8" winger and Walker will never be able to fit that "bill" (sorry - just happened).

I agree.  Maybe down the road Walker can be solid at the 3, his experience making up for height, but inexperience plus lack of height is a problem considering the need to cut Pierce's minutes.  I'm more comfortable with the idea of Giddens and Walker duking it out for minutes at the 2 guard spot, and signing, trading for 2 players to backup of Pierce, one of whom could play a bit at the 4, further protecting KG and allowing for great "small-ball" lineup with KG at the 5.  In other words someone just like Posey, with another tallish or experienced wing behind him.

PG
SG
SF  Pierce, Posey, Casspi
PF
C

or:

Pierce, Kleiza, Casspi

or:

Pierce, Hill, James Jones

or:

Pierce, Hill, Casspi     etc.....

Pierce, Hill, Brandon Wallace!!!!!   just kidding (I was wrong about him)

[Celtic#9]

What if we would have drafted Chalmers instead of JR Giddens?

[crownsy]

What if we would have drafted Chalmers instead of JR Giddens?

then chalmers would be a bench player, and we'd be having the same discussion.

I wanted chalmers on draft night, and wish we had taken him, but he wouldn't have gotten much more run than walker here year one, at best.

He had the perfect situation on the heat, he had to beat out chris quinn to start.

Here he would have had to compete with house for the 10-12 or so minutes a night backing up rondo, and i don't like his chances vs. house with doc's history of holding young players out.

[greenhead85]

They can definitely improve this team. It all depends on how much can Rondo involves  them in the offense. Rondo is the floorleader and he must find ways to let these talented players blossom by getting them involved more often when they get the chance to be on the floor.
Jason Kidd just did these to most of his teammates when he directed plays for the Nets. Remember the times when House, Scal, Jefferson, Collins, etal converted shots with ease when they had the luxury of those Kidd passes (assists).
Rondo must lead the team like Jason Kidd did to the Nets, Magic to LAL, Stockton to the Jazz, CP3 to the Hornets, etc. Incidentally Kidd, Magic and Stockton were never good outside shooters when they started their careers. So Rondo must also hone his shooting skills to open more options for himself and his teammates.

[crownsy]

They can definitely improve this team. It all depends on how much can Rondo involves  them in the offense. Rondo is the floorleader and he must find ways to let these talented players blossom by getting them involved more often when they get the chance to be on the floor.
Jason Kidd just did these to most of his teammates when he directed plays for the Nets. Remember the times when House, Scal, Jefferson, Collins, etal converted shots with ease when they had the luxury of those Kidd passes (assists).
Rondo must lead the team like Jason Kidd did to the Nets, Magic to LAL, Stockton to the Jazz, CP3 to the Hornets, etc. Incidentally Kidd, Magic and Stockton were never good outside shooters when they started their careers. So Rondo must also hone his shooting skills to open more options for himself and his teammates.

Rondo will see limited playing time with them, at best.

IF they help at all this year, it will be as part of the second unit, and doc has been reluctant to leave rondo on the floor with bench players for extended periods, i assume due to how easy it is to double with him at the point.

[greenhead85]

They can definitely improve this team. It all depends on how much can Rondo involves  them in the offense. Rondo is the floorleader and he must find ways to let these talented players blossom by getting them involved more often when they get the chance to be on the floor.
Jason Kidd just did these to most of his teammates when he directed plays for the Nets. Remember the times when House, Scal, Jefferson, Collins, etal converted shots with ease when they had the luxury of those Kidd passes (assists).
Rondo must lead the team like Jason Kidd did to the Nets, Magic to LAL, Stockton to the Jazz, CP3 to the Hornets, etc. Incidentally Kidd, Magic and Stockton were never good outside shooters when they started their careers. So Rondo must also hone his shooting skills to open more options for himself and his teammates.

Rondo will see limited playing time with them, at best.

IF they help at all this year, it will be as part of the second unit, and doc has been reluctant to leave rondo on the floor with bench players for extended periods, i assume due to how easy it is to double with him at the point.

We wont improve much if this is how Doc and Rondo will handle and run the team. Teams that had a lot of successes like Bird with the Celts, Magic/Kobe with LAL, Jordan with the Bulls and Isaiah with the Pistons exposed their leaders (star players) playing on the floor alongside with their supporting (2nd and even 3rd unit) casts. These supporting players' potentials were brought out because of them. If Rondo will not do just that then we will only be overly utilizing a few if not only the starting players game after game. These will only expose us from vulnerability and fatigue.

[crownsy]

They can definitely improve this team. It all depends on how much can Rondo involves  them in the offense. Rondo is the floorleader and he must find ways to let these talented players blossom by getting them involved more often when they get the chance to be on the floor.
Jason Kidd just did these to most of his teammates when he directed plays for the Nets. Remember the times when House, Scal, Jefferson, Collins, etal converted shots with ease when they had the luxury of those Kidd passes (assists).
Rondo must lead the team like Jason Kidd did to the Nets, Magic to LAL, Stockton to the Jazz, CP3 to the Hornets, etc. Incidentally Kidd, Magic and Stockton were never good outside shooters when they started their careers. So Rondo must also hone his shooting skills to open more options for himself and his teammates.

Rondo will see limited playing time with them, at best.

IF they help at all this year, it will be as part of the second unit, and doc has been reluctant to leave rondo on the floor with bench players for extended periods, i assume due to how easy it is to double with him at the point.

We wont improve much if this is how Doc and Rondo will handle and run the team. Teams that had a lot of successes like Bird with the Celts, Magic/Kobe with LAL, Jordan with the Bulls and Isaiah with the Pistons exposed their leaders (star players) playing on the floor alongside with their supporting (2nd and even 3rd unit) casts. These supporting players' potentials were brought out because of them. If Rondo will not do just that then we will only be overly utilizing a few if not only the starting players game after game. These will only expose us from vulnerability and fatigue.

we do that already, paul or ray are always on the floor with the second unit, and KG heads out at times too.

[amenhotep04]

I would play Giddens and Walker over Tony.  I think we'd get more production from them than Tony gives in limited minutes.

But the point is moot if Doc doesn't want to integrate players into the rotation.  This belief from a lot of posters that just because guys don't get minutes is because they don't deserve it makes it sound as though Doc is completely objective in his evaluation of players.  I don't buy it.

With that said however, I don't see Giddens playing next year and  I don't trust Doc to ever be good at rotating players for an entire season.

[slamtheking]

What if we would have drafted Chalmers instead of JR Giddens?

then chalmers would be a bench player, and we'd be having the same discussion.

I wanted chalmers on draft night, and wish we had taken him, but he wouldn't have gotten much more run than walker here year one, at best.

He had the perfect situation on the heat, he had to beat out chris quinn to start.

Here he would have had to compete with house for the 10-12 or so minutes a night backing up rondo, and i don't like his chances vs. house with doc's history of holding young players out.

Exactly, he'd be riding the pine under Doc.  He'd probably be stuck behind Pruitt too since, in Doc's mind Pruitt's got more 'experience'.

[snively]

They need to be able to do the bare minimum: make approximately correct defensive rotations, don't get beat in transition, run the plays correctly, hustle without getting in the way and bring one skill to the table, be it defending, 3-pt shooting, drawing fouls or a good mixture of the 3.

Otherwise they're not going to see the floor enough to obtain the experience that Doc needs to trust them down the stretch, and thus we wouldn't be able to expect much of them.

Bill Walker needs to make a big leap.  I think the rotations and execution will improve incrementally with the passage of time and the increase in familiarity but he still doesn't have a concrete skill.  He doesn't penetrate, shoot or defend any better than Tony Allen at this point.  I think he should work all summer on the corner 3, the pull-up 17 footer after a close-out and finishing with his off-hand.  If he can get up to NBA snuff in those categories, I think his marginal improvements in other areas will get him some floortime and possibly enough run to make him useful for the playoffs. 

[johnnyrondo]

What if we would have drafted Chalmers instead of JR Giddens?

then chalmers would be a bench player, and we'd be having the same discussion.

I wanted chalmers on draft night, and wish we had taken him, but he wouldn't have gotten much more run than walker here year one, at best.

He had the perfect situation on the heat, he had to beat out chris quinn to start.

Here he would have had to compete with house for the 10-12 or so minutes a night backing up rondo, and i don't like his chances vs. house with doc's history of holding young players out.

Exactly, he'd be riding the pine under Doc.  He'd probably be stuck behind Pruitt too since, in Doc's mind Pruitt's got more 'experience'.

Doc played Gomes as a rookie. BBD got some run. So did Rondo and Powe as rookies. Yeah obviously Chalmers wouldn't have started on the C's, but to assume he'd get as much run as Giddens is faulty. I think he would have been the backup point guard by season's end and maybe we use the money we used on Mikki and Marbury on Joe Smith only (Marbury wouldn't be as needed).

[Fafnir]

They need to be able to do the bare minimum: make approximately correct defensive rotations, don't get beat in transition, run the plays correctly, hustle without getting in the way and bring one skill to the table, be it defending, 3-pt shooting, drawing fouls or a good mixture of the 3.

Otherwise they're not going to see the floor enough to obtain the experience that Doc needs to trust them down the stretch, and thus we wouldn't be able to expect much of them.

Bill Walker needs to make a big leap.  I think the rotations and execution will improve incrementally with the passage of time and the increase in familiarity but he still doesn't have a concrete skill.  He doesn't penetrate, shoot or defend any better than Tony Allen at this point.  I think he should work all summer on the corner 3, the pull-up 17 footer after a close-out and finishing with his off-hand.  If he can get up to NBA snuff in those categories, I think his marginal improvements in other areas will get him some floortime and possibly enough run to make him useful for the playoffs. 

Bill Walker needs to work on many things, some of which you list. But the biggest thing he needs to take care of is the deer in headlights look he gets when it is not garbage time.

He got lost so much on both ends of the court I don't blame Doc for giving him no burn. Hopefully he'll come around this year....