Grousbeck: We can offer a 'max contract' next year

[crownsy]

Is anyone else getting the feeling like it seems more and more likely like Rondo isn't coming back, and the Celtics' brass is trying to brace us for an upcoming trade?

This would more seem to target pierce's contract. Rondo matters little to his statement.

If i were a doomsayer, I'd say to get ready for a trade that involves shipping paul;s contract out for an expiring so he can set up ray and paul off the books for 2010.

Under that scenario, as I understand it (which means im wrong on something roy will soon catch ) we would line up to be able to offer a max contract in 2010 assuming we do not extend a  offer to rondo/ trade him.

[Roy Hobbs]

you can't sign paul under bird rights as you did here. BEFORE you offered a max contract to anyone, you would need to renounce his bird rights, which would limit our options with him after the max offer to MLE or minimum deal.

That's not quite correct.

We wouldn't have cap space until we signed or renounced Pierce, that's true.  However, we could still sign him using Bird rights.  Whatever money was left under the cap could be used for free agents.  What you *can't* do is resign the max free agent first, and then sign Pierce using Bird rights.

Also, 1) we couldn't use the MLE, as explained above; and 2) we'd still be able to sign Pierce with whatever cap space we had, even if we renounced him.

[JSD]

How? We would need to utilize our exceptions just like we are now.

Teams under the cap don't get the MLE / LLE if they want to use cap space.  (The MLE and LLE count as "holds" on a team's salary cap in their full amount; to utilize cap space, these holds need to be renounced, meaning the MLE and LLE can't be used.)

I thought that once the Celtics go over the cap the expeditions kick in.

[celticmaestro]

So who?

[JSD]

you can't sign paul under bird rights as you did here. BEFORE you offered a max contract to anyone, you would need to renounce his bird rights, which would limit our options with him after the max offer to MLE or minimum deal.

That's not quite correct.

We wouldn't have cap space until we signed or renounced Pierce, that's true.  However, we could still sign him using Bird rights.  Whatever money was left under the cap could be used for free agents.  What you *can't* do is resign the max free agent first, and then sign Pierce using Bird rights.

Also, 1) we couldn't use the MLE, as explained above; and 2) we'd still be able to sign Pierce with whatever cap space we had, even if we renounced him.

Right and that's exactly what I showed. I was incorrect about the available expeditions. However:

Perk
KG
PP
Wade
Rubio

Will draw some serious minimums and is the picture Wyc is trying to paint.

[Roy Hobbs]

How? We would need to utilize our exceptions just like we are now.

Teams under the cap don't get the MLE / LLE if they want to use cap space.  (The MLE and LLE count as "holds" on a team's salary cap in their full amount; to utilize cap space, these holds need to be renounced, meaning the MLE and LLE can't be used.)

I thought that once the Celtics go over the cap the expeditions kick in.

Nope.  Once the MLE and LLE are renounced, they stay renounced.

[guava_wrench]

How? We would need to utilize our exceptions just like we are now.

Teams under the cap don't get the MLE / LLE if they want to use cap space.  (The MLE and LLE count as "holds" on a team's salary cap in their full amount; to utilize cap space, these holds need to be renounced, meaning the MLE and LLE can't be used.)

I thought that once the Celtics go over the cap the expeditions kick in.

Jsaad -- are you having a stroke, or are you typing on a phone that autocompletes words? This is the first time I've seen you switching words for odd replacements in your posts (noticed it twice).

Hangover?

[Jeff]

ok Roy, if you don't mind being the human cap machine, I'd like to run this scenario through your mainframe

we accept a deal with Washington to trade Ray for a pick and expiring contracts

we deal Rondo to Sactown for the 4 pick and one of their stud big men

Paul opts out of his contract and agrees to sign some kind of extension

we sign free agents to only 1 year deals to compete this year

does that do it?

if not, give us a reasonable option on how it works

[crownsy]

you can't sign paul under bird rights as you did here. BEFORE you offered a max contract to anyone, you would need to renounce his bird rights, which would limit our options with him after the max offer to MLE or minimum deal.

That's not quite correct.

We wouldn't have cap space until we signed or renounced Pierce, that's true.  However, we could still sign him using Bird rights.  Whatever money was left under the cap could be used for free agents.  What you *can't* do is resign the max free agent first, and then sign Pierce using Bird rights.

Also, 1) we couldn't use the MLE, as explained above; and 2) we'd still be able to sign Pierce with whatever cap space we had, even if we renounced him.

Right and that's exactly what I showed. I was incorrect about the available expeditions. However:

Perk
KG
PP
Wade
Rubio

Will draw some serious minimums and is the picture Wyc is trying to paint.

No, that isn't what you showed.

You correctly surmised that with ray and rondo gone and paul opte'd out, we would have 18 million.

17 million is a max contract.

This leaves us 1 million post MAX contract. as roy showed, once you sign that max contract, paul's bird rights are gone.

This leaves you 1 million to resign paul. that ain't happening.

[JSD]

you can't sign paul under bird rights as you did here. BEFORE you offered a max contract to anyone, you would need to renounce his bird rights, which would limit our options with him after the max offer to MLE or minimum deal.

That's not quite correct.

We wouldn't have cap space until we signed or renounced Pierce, that's true.  However, we could still sign him using Bird rights.  Whatever money was left under the cap could be used for free agents.  What you *can't* do is resign the max free agent first, and then sign Pierce using Bird rights.

Also, 1) we couldn't use the MLE, as explained above; and 2) we'd still be able to sign Pierce with whatever cap space we had, even if we renounced him.

Right and that's exactly what I showed. I was incorrect about the available expeditions. However:

Perk
KG
PP
Wade
Rubio

Will draw some serious minimums and is the picture Wyc is trying to paint.

No, that isn't what you showed.

You correctly surmised that with ray and rondo gone and paul opte'd out, we would have 18 million.

17 million is a max contract.

This leaves us 1 million post MAX contract. as roy showed, once you sign that max contract, paul's bird rights are gone.

This leaves you 1 million to resign paul. that ain't happening.

That is incorrect. My scenario had Paul opting out and resigning with Bird-Rights before pursuing an FA.

[Roy Hobbs]

ok Roy, if you don't mind being the human cap machine, I'd like to run this scenario through your mainframe

we accept a deal with Washington to trade Ray for a pick and expiring contracts

we deal Rondo to Sactown for the 4 pick and one of their stud big men

Paul opts out of his contract and agrees to sign some kind of extension

we sign free agents to only 1 year deals to compete this year

does that do it?

In terms of the Sacramento deal, the salary of Thompson + the #4 pick would be almost the same as that of Rondo's cap hold.

Regarding the Washington deal, we'd be better off renouncing Ray than adding a draft pick, because that pick will bring back a salary.

We could do it, but Pierce would have to sign a very, very small extension (even without the Washington draft pick, probably $6 million or less) and every other player on the team would have to be at a minimum-salary.

if not, give us a reasonable option on how it works

I'm thinking out loud here, but there could be a possibility where we immediately signed Paul and Ray to bargain contracts, let's say $2 million each for one year.  We'd then have enough room to sign a max free agent, and we'd still have Perk and KG on the roster (and would hold Rondo's rights).

Here's where it becomes brilliant (but expensive):  since Ray and Pierce were never renounced, we'd still have their Bird rights.  We could then give each of them a huge bump the following season (up to around as much as $17 million each, if we were so inclined).  This would be massively expensive, but it's the only realistic way I can think of to build a good team and still sign a max free agent.  Even then, we'd have to fill out the roster with minimum-salary players.

Also, we'd have to make darn sure we made no solid commitments to Pierce and Ray, because the league would almost certainly see this as an attempt to circumvent the salary cap.

[crownsy]

you can't sign paul under bird rights as you did here. BEFORE you offered a max contract to anyone, you would need to renounce his bird rights, which would limit our options with him after the max offer to MLE or minimum deal.

That's not quite correct.

We wouldn't have cap space until we signed or renounced Pierce, that's true.  However, we could still sign him using Bird rights.  Whatever money was left under the cap could be used for free agents.  What you *can't* do is resign the max free agent first, and then sign Pierce using Bird rights.

Also, 1) we couldn't use the MLE, as explained above; and 2) we'd still be able to sign Pierce with whatever cap space we had, even if we renounced him.

Right and that's exactly what I showed. I was incorrect about the available expeditions. However:

Perk
KG
PP
Wade
Rubio

Will draw some serious minimums and is the picture Wyc is trying to paint.

No, that isn't what you showed.

You correctly surmised that with ray and rondo gone and paul opte'd out, we would have 18 million.

17 million is a max contract.

This leaves us 1 million post MAX contract. as roy showed, once you sign that max contract, paul's bird rights are gone.

This leaves you 1 million to resign paul. that ain't happening.

That is incorrect. My scenario had Paul opting out and resigning with Bird-Rights before pursuing an FA.

which won't work, as roy showed above.

To me, Wyc either doesn't know what he's talking about cap wise, or knows that a deal is in place that will gut the team of paul, ray, and rondo's cap hits by 2010.

If it's 2, i hope its something better than the Memphis deal.

[Moranis]

Maybe he is talking about trading one of hte big three.

[JSD]

which won't work, as roy showed above.

To me, Wyc either doesn't know what he's talking about cap wise, or knows that a deal is in place that will gut the team of paul, ray, and rondo's cap hits by 2010.

If it's 2, i hope its something better than the Memphis deal.

Won't work? Aside from circumventing the cap(as Roy just mentioned) it's the most likely scenario that Wyc is referring to. You really think it's possible WYC doesn't understand the cap? I don't... Being 1 million under the cap doesn't put the C's into a hard cap situation (I.E. we can still sign minimums.)

[crownsy]

Maybe he is talking about trading one of hte big three.

Need to do 2 by my count. If you are trading ray, paul, and rondo for pieces to go forward with and 2010 expiring contracts, then what he's saying works out fine.