The Ray-Rondo trade rumor (Amare) + new idea

[paintitgreen]

The KG-Rondo chemistry, that really took off this year, might be something to think about. Their quick eye contact, alley-oop passing seemed to be averaging about 2-4 PPG when KG went down.

That type of thing is so important and must be considered before any trade of the starting five. This will be their third year together and the chemistry should be at it's peak with the fast break outlet passes, alley oops to KG, position for drive and dishes, the three man pick roll triangle on the side, interior big man passing and other such things that bringing in a new starter will disrupt.

While the trade is intriguing because I really think Amare and the way his contract is structured would be a great asset to have in exchange for Ray, I can't see giving up Rondo as I think his assist numbers could be in the double digit area next year.

I can easily see a 13 PPG, 10.5 APG, 6 RPG, 2.5 STPG 3 TOPG numbers for Rondo next year and maybe slightly better the year after. Also, I think his outside shot and finishing at the rim WILL get better. He has such a competitive spirit and need to improve that I doubt he doesn't come back every season with something else better, ala Larry Bird.

If we could pry Amare from Phoenix without Rondo, I do it in a heartbeat.

That's an excellent point. Not only was it a guaranteed 2-4 points per game, but it was something opposing defenses constantly had to be ready for, so with that one simple play's affect on the defense, it could be worth 8-10 easy points a game that we no longer had when Garnett was hurt.

Like you say, if we were to keep Rondo, I could understand wanting Amare a little more, since Rondo could similarly employ Amare in that role to great effect, both with and after KG. But if we're giving up Rondo, I just worry about Amare's (and KG's post-injury) shot creation abilities.

[Gemini]

How about Ray and Rondo to the clips from kaman, Camby and the #1 Pick?

[Gemini]

or Camby B davis and the number 1 pick

[ballaholic]

How about Ray <--> Gordon & Randolph

Clips say they wan't to move Z-Bo and Gordon, Rondo & Perk would be the futures centerpieces.

[BCelts]

The KG-Rondo chemistry, that really took off this year, might be something to think about. Their quick eye contact, alley-oop passing seemed to be averaging about 2-4 PPG when KG went down.

That type of thing is so important and must be considered before any trade of the starting five. This will be their third year together and the chemistry should be at it's peak with the fast break outlet passes, alley oops to KG, position for drive and dishes, the three man pick roll triangle on the side, interior big man passing and other such things that bringing in a new starter will disrupt.

While the trade is intriguing because I really think Amare and the way his contract is structured would be a great asset to have in exchange for Ray, I can't see giving up Rondo as I think his assist numbers could be in the double digit area next year.

I can easily see a 13 PPG, 10.5 APG, 6 RPG, 2.5 STPG 3 TOPG numbers for Rondo next year and maybe slightly better the year after. Also, I think his outside shot and finishing at the rim WILL get better. He has such a competitive spirit and need to improve that I doubt he doesn't come back every season with something else better, ala Larry Bird.

If we could pry Amare from Phoenix without Rondo, I do it in a heartbeat.

That's an excellent point. Not only was it a guaranteed 2-4 points per game, but it was something opposing defenses constantly had to be ready for, so with that one simple play's affect on the defense, it could be worth 8-10 easy points a game that we no longer had when Garnett was hurt.

Like you say, if we were to keep Rondo, I could understand wanting Amare a little more, since Rondo could similarly employ Amare in that role to great effect, both with and after KG. But if we're giving up Rondo, I just worry about Amare's (and KG's post-injury) shot creation abilities.

I think that perhaps there is part of this that is missing in this discussion; call it the Rondo problem.  Rondo is due next year for probably a max or a near-max extension, or else he walks.  Other teams are saving money like crazy.  There will be other suitors.  However, if hte Celtics sign him for max level money, once the Big three are gone, the Celtics are still saddled with the Rondo salary.  THe C's will be unable to get down below the cap to pick up free agents and rebuild - they will be stuck in NBA purgatory for years. 

I love Rondo as a player.  Talent-wise, right now, he is a top 5 PG in our league (including his defensive talent, obviously).  He also can still improve.  But his contract is coming up at hte wrong time to rebuild the team after the big three leave.  Also, his value is higher than it has ever been.  So it makes sense to explore a trade with Rondo as a centerpiece, as much as I do not like it.  Especially if Andre Miller is waiting in the wings to spell Rondo for a few years.

Having said that, were I at the helm, I would not have the sack to trade Rondo unless it was as a cost saving measure (with Ray and picks) for CP3. 

[paintitgreen]

Good points, BCelts.

I guess it really comes down to how Ainge feels about contract renegotiations with Rondo and Ray. If he thinks he can get both for about $20-22 mil a year, I think he does it. I'm not sure having a big contract on Rondo really saddles you anytime. He's shown he can be a good point guard and help great talent emerge, which is a desirable quality to prospective free agents. As long as we don't give out a bunch of big contracts to undeserving players post-KG/Pierce/Ray, then we won't be stuck in purgatory.

If Rondo wants more than a 5-year, $60 million deal, I'd definitely look to deal him. I think $10-12 million is good compensation for him, especially with long term security. As for Ray, I think $7-9 for three years is a fair deal since I think he's got one to two years of starting left followed by a year where he's best served as a sixth man. But if they're not willing to take that kind of money, then I see why Ainge is thinking about a trade that helps us now and opens up more potential future flexibility.

Of course, if we were to trade him for CP3, it wouldn't be cost-saving, but cost-incurring.

[BCelts]

Good points, BCelts.

I guess it really comes down to how Ainge feels about contract renegotiations with Rondo and Ray. If he thinks he can get both for about $20-22 mil a year, I think he does it. I'm not sure having a big contract on Rondo really saddles you anytime. He's shown he can be a good point guard and help great talent emerge, which is a desirable quality to prospective free agents. As long as we don't give out a bunch of big contracts to undeserving players post-KG/Pierce/Ray, then we won't be stuck in purgatory.

If Rondo wants more than a 5-year, $60 million deal, I'd definitely look to deal him. I think $10-12 million is good compensation for him, especially with long term security. As for Ray, I think $7-9 for three years is a fair deal since I think he's got one to two years of starting left followed by a year where he's best served as a sixth man. But if they're not willing to take that kind of money, then I see why Ainge is thinking about a trade that helps us now and opens up more potential future flexibility.

Of course, if we were to trade him for CP3, it wouldn't be cost-saving, but cost-incurring.

I guess I was not complete or clear.  Perhaps the Cs are thinking that if they sign rondo for 12m per year for 6 years and still have Perk probably for similar money, after KG and pierce's contracts expire they will still be over the cap and in trouble.  In other words, the Cs have a favorable salary cap position if all their big contracts expire at about the same time, and signing rondo to a long term big money deal messes that up.  I still would keep Rondo, but the cap flexibility issue in four years or so cannot be ignored as a motivating factor.

[jambr380]

Man, to give Rondo 12 mill a year, I need to see him do what he did in the playoffs the whole year next year. As big of a fan I am of him, I am even more into the value of his current contract. A year ago did anyone ever dream of getting someone of Amare's value for him? Amare has a [weird] injury plagued year and Rondo goes off against the Bulls and now apparently most Boston fans laugh at this deal. As I said in another post, talented big men just don't grow on trees. Amare is REALLY good- whether people want to admit it or not.

[BCelts]

Man, to give Rondo 12 mill a year, I need to see him do what he did in the playoffs the whole year next year. As big of a fan I am of him, I am even more into the value of his current contract. A year ago did anyone ever dream of getting someone of Amare's value for him? Amare has a [weird] injury plagued year and Rondo goes off against the Bulls and now apparently most Boston fans laugh at this deal. As I said in another post, talented big men just don't grow on trees. Amare is REALLY good- whether people want to admit it or not.

My problem with amare is his defense, or lack thereof.  To my eye, in last years playoffs he singlehandedly killed the suns.  He is ok as a 1 on 1 guy, but not since herald green have I seen someone miss more help rotations.  I remember a stretch in one game where the opposing team scored four or five times in a row because of a missed rotation or late rotation by amare.  I fear he just does not "get" team defense.  An amazing offensive talent to be sure, but his defense and his injury history makes him worth less than rondo in my book.  If we could get him for ray and a bbd sing and trade - worth the risk, but not much more.  One persons opinion.

[nickagneta]

The KG-Rondo chemistry, that really took off this year, might be something to think about. Their quick eye contact, alley-oop passing seemed to be averaging about 2-4 PPG when KG went down.

That type of thing is so important and must be considered before any trade of the starting five. This will be their third year together and the chemistry should be at it's peak with the fast break outlet passes, alley oops to KG, position for drive and dishes, the three man pick roll triangle on the side, interior big man passing and other such things that bringing in a new starter will disrupt.

While the trade is intriguing because I really think Amare and the way his contract is structured would be a great asset to have in exchange for Ray, I can't see giving up Rondo as I think his assist numbers could be in the double digit area next year.

I can easily see a 13 PPG, 10.5 APG, 6 RPG, 2.5 STPG 3 TOPG numbers for Rondo next year and maybe slightly better the year after. Also, I think his outside shot and finishing at the rim WILL get better. He has such a competitive spirit and need to improve that I doubt he doesn't come back every season with something else better, ala Larry Bird.

If we could pry Amare from Phoenix without Rondo, I do it in a heartbeat.

That's an excellent point. Not only was it a guaranteed 2-4 points per game, but it was something opposing defenses constantly had to be ready for, so with that one simple play's affect on the defense, it could be worth 8-10 easy points a game that we no longer had when Garnett was hurt.

Like you say, if we were to keep Rondo, I could understand wanting Amare a little more, since Rondo could similarly employ Amare in that role to great effect, both with and after KG. But if we're giving up Rondo, I just worry about Amare's (and KG's post-injury) shot creation abilities.

I think that perhaps there is part of this that is missing in this discussion; call it the Rondo problem.  Rondo is due next year for probably a max or a near-max extension, or else he walks.  Other teams are saving money like crazy.  There will be other suitors.  However, if hte Celtics sign him for max level money, once the Big three are gone, the Celtics are still saddled with the Rondo salary.  THe C's will be unable to get down below the cap to pick up free agents and rebuild - they will be stuck in NBA purgatory for years. 

I love Rondo as a player.  Talent-wise, right now, he is a top 5 PG in our league (including his defensive talent, obviously).  He also can still improve.  But his contract is coming up at hte wrong time to rebuild the team after the big three leave.  Also, his value is higher than it has ever been.  So it makes sense to explore a trade with Rondo as a centerpiece, as much as I do not like it.  Especially if Andre Miller is waiting in the wings to spell Rondo for a few years.

Having said that, were I at the helm, I would not have the sack to trade Rondo unless it was as a cost saving measure (with Ray and picks) for CP3. 

I'm sorry, but the above highlighted area is just not true. I'm referencing Roy Hobbs' front page article on the Celtics salary cap:

http://www.celticsblog.com/2009/6/3/896268/celtics-salary-cap-situation-and

But even if both Perk and Rondo are both given contract extensions that pay them in the neighborhood of $10 million per year, in the 2012-2013 season, when the last of the big three contracts are expired, they will be about the only long term salary that the Celtics have on the books. It is patently false to declare that with Rondo having a large contract that there would be no money left over for good free agents.

Heck if the C's play their cards right and everything falls into place, that is the year Kevin Durant comes into play as well as Al Horford. The Celtics could conceivably have enough money under the cap to sign both that year. If they did a team centered around:

Rondo - PG
Durant - SF
Horford - PF
Perkins - C

would be unbelievable for years to come. NBA purgatory is not necessary just because we extend Rondo and even Perk.

[BballTim]

Good points, BCelts.

I guess it really comes down to how Ainge feels about contract renegotiations with Rondo and Ray. If he thinks he can get both for about $20-22 mil a year, I think he does it. I'm not sure having a big contract on Rondo really saddles you anytime. He's shown he can be a good point guard and help great talent emerge, which is a desirable quality to prospective free agents. As long as we don't give out a bunch of big contracts to undeserving players post-KG/Pierce/Ray, then we won't be stuck in purgatory.

If Rondo wants more than a 5-year, $60 million deal, I'd definitely look to deal him. I think $10-12 million is good compensation for him, especially with long term security. As for Ray, I think $7-9 for three years is a fair deal since I think he's got one to two years of starting left followed by a year where he's best served as a sixth man. But if they're not willing to take that kind of money, then I see why Ainge is thinking about a trade that helps us now and opens up more potential future flexibility.

Of course, if we were to trade him for CP3, it wouldn't be cost-saving, but cost-incurring.

I guess I was not complete or clear.  Perhaps the Cs are thinking that if they sign rondo for 12m per year for 6 years and still have Perk probably for similar money, after KG and pierce's contracts expire they will still be over the cap and in trouble.  In other words, the Cs have a favorable salary cap position if all their big contracts expire at about the same time, and signing rondo to a long term big money deal messes that up.  I still would keep Rondo, but the cap flexibility issue in four years or so cannot be ignored as a motivating factor.

  That's assuming that they just let the big three walk and don't try and trade them for other players while they are in the last year of their deals.

[crownsy]

Good points, BCelts.

I guess it really comes down to how Ainge feels about contract renegotiations with Rondo and Ray. If he thinks he can get both for about $20-22 mil a year, I think he does it. I'm not sure having a big contract on Rondo really saddles you anytime. He's shown he can be a good point guard and help great talent emerge, which is a desirable quality to prospective free agents. As long as we don't give out a bunch of big contracts to undeserving players post-KG/Pierce/Ray, then we won't be stuck in purgatory.

If Rondo wants more than a 5-year, $60 million deal, I'd definitely look to deal him. I think $10-12 million is good compensation for him, especially with long term security. As for Ray, I think $7-9 for three years is a fair deal since I think he's got one to two years of starting left followed by a year where he's best served as a sixth man. But if they're not willing to take that kind of money, then I see why Ainge is thinking about a trade that helps us now and opens up more potential future flexibility.

Of course, if we were to trade him for CP3, it wouldn't be cost-saving, but cost-incurring.

I guess I was not complete or clear.  Perhaps the Cs are thinking that if they sign rondo for 12m per year for 6 years and still have Perk probably for similar money, after KG and pierce's contracts expire they will still be over the cap and in trouble.  In other words, the Cs have a favorable salary cap position if all their big contracts expire at about the same time, and signing rondo to a long term big money deal messes that up.  I still would keep Rondo, but the cap flexibility issue in four years or so cannot be ignored as a motivating factor.

  That's assuming that they just let the big three walk and don't try and trade them for other players while they are in the last year of their deals.

also i think perk has zero chance of getting a max contract. I like the guy, and think he's an awesome fit at 4-6 million, but he's a defensive first player with below average offensive skills. Those guys don't typically command max contracts. (this is also why i think the celtics will pass if rondo demands a max.)

[BCelts]

  That's assuming that they just let the big three walk and don't try and trade them for other players while they are in the last year of their deals.

That was my assumption.  I was not thinking the Celtics would be able to go for the next two years without keeping a few players.  My thoughts were that Rondo, with Perk and the other players even signed for lesser deal, may be what the Celtics believe will put the, over the top of the cap.

But laying in wait for Durant is not a bad idea at all.

[BCelts]

also i think perk has zero chance of getting a max contract. I like the guy, and think he's an awesome fit at 4-6 million, but he's a defensive first player with below average offensive skills. Those guys don't typically command max contracts. (this is also why i think the celtics will pass if rondo demands a max.)

I think Perk has zero chance of a max contract as well.  Since he has already been extended, unless I misremember, his Max deal would start about $15M per year.  However, Perk is a solid center in this league, a great defender, a good rebounder, but with limited offensive skills.  Aren't these guys worth typically about $10 M per year?

[Fafnir]

also i think perk has zero chance of getting a max contract. I like the guy, and think he's an awesome fit at 4-6 million, but he's a defensive first player with below average offensive skills. Those guys don't typically command max contracts. (this is also why i think the celtics will pass if rondo demands a max.)

I think Perk has zero chance of a max contract as well.  Since he has already been extended, unless I misremember, his Max deal would start about $15M per year.  However, Perk is a solid center in this league, a great defender, a good rebounder, but with limited offensive skills.  Aren't these guys worth typically about $10 M per year?

He won't get a max contract but he could.

A team with salary cap room or the Celtics with their Bird rights could theoretically give him a max deal.