Author Topic: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.  (Read 17366 times)

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Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2009, 10:06:20 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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My distaste for the handling of the last offseason is well documented. If Ainge didn't want to spend the money on the proven, veteran, role player Posey, all I wanted was that he sign proven, veteran, role players. I even suggested following their own advice. Both Ainge and Doc made comments stating that they were a better team when they played a conventional lineup with size and strength in the 4 slot and were not as good when they played Posey at the four. Sign three vetran players, one a big man, one a wing and one a PG was my suggestion. Although we couldn't afford it my suggestions of Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and Tyronne Lue would have been about what I was talking about.

Instead he did this:

- he sined a first round bust that couldn't run well for more than 15 minutes in his workout and who Don Nelson labeled a lazy player. He was a top ten pick that couldn't make it until his third year with the team that drafted him.

- he signed both rookies wasting a roster spot for a veteran that could have produced this year when sending one of those picks overseas would have been the smart thing to do as neither was obviously ready for contributing to the defense of an NBA title.

- he wasted valuable time trying to see if a near cripple could still play and entertained wasting yet another roster spot on Darius Miles even though he wasn't ready to play and had to serve a ten game suspension.

- he resigned Tony Allen and then compounded that lunacy by giving him a guaranteed 2 year contract even though he is an injury prone player. What happened? He got injured and missed significant time in which the team played as well as when he was on the team. Some could argue the team played better without him. Go figure?!

- He passed on numerous better, proven veterans that could have helped if used in their roles. Anthony Carter, Janero Pargo, Dasagna Diop, Roger Mason, Chris Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley, Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Dikembe Mutombo, Quinton Ross, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, etc., etc. All proven vets with no upside. Just proven in what they could give you and important to clubs across the league. And affordable. Sure some for more than the apparent $2.5 million per year, two year cap that the Celtics were seeming stuck with, but still affordable.

- He resigned and wasted yet another roster spot on Sam Cassel who, although he was a good influence on the development of Rondo, didn't play a single minute.

Reviewing, he brought in Cassel, O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, and Tony Allen and contemplated bringing in Miles and still had Pruitt signed. Basically, 40% of our roster was completely useless in the defense of the NBA title and were failures or developmental players. That is inexcusably bad front office management.

This is an excellent summary deserving of more than one TP, if I could give one.

Clearly, the off-season was predicated on the checkbook, not talent. That is a miscalculation that will play a significant role in the way this season concludes, and it must change if we hope to make a title run next year.

The biggest miscalculation was Posey - not necessarily that he wasn't resigned, although I continue to believe the decision on his contract to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The miscalculation was the total disregard for the broad collection of above-average skills he brought to the table: versatility. Defense, energy, outside shooting, physicality, rebounding. To fail to bring in anyone capable of replacing that skillset is a mistake of epic proportions.

It cannot be repeated this summer. We will not contend for a title with this roster.

 
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2009, 10:10:35 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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My distaste for the handling of the last offseason is well documented. If Ainge didn't want to spend the money on the proven, veteran, role player Posey, all I wanted was that he sign proven, veteran, role players. I even suggested following their own advice. Both Ainge and Doc made comments stating that they were a better team when they played a conventional lineup with size and strength in the 4 slot and were not as good when they played Posey at the four. Sign three vetran players, one a big man, one a wing and one a PG was my suggestion. Although we couldn't afford it my suggestions of Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and Tyronne Lue would have been about what I was talking about.

[ . . .]

- He passed on numerous better, proven veterans that could have helped if used in their roles. Anthony Carter, Janero Pargo, Dasagna Diop, Roger Mason, Chris Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley, Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Dikembe Mutombo, Quinton Ross, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, etc., etc. All proven vets with no upside. Just proven in what they could give you and important to clubs across the league. And affordable. Sure some for more than the apparent $2.5 million per year, two year cap that the Celtics were seeming stuck with, but still affordable.

[ . . . ]

Reviewing, he brought in Cassel, O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, and Tony Allen and contemplated bringing in Miles and still had Pruitt signed. Basically, 40% of our roster was completely useless in the defense of the NBA title and were failures or developmental players. That is inexcusably bad front office management.

Nick, you're conveniently ignoring the financial constraints under which Ainge had to operate this past season. He only had the MLE, LLE, and minimum level money he could use to address the bench.

There is no way in hell you can land Mason, Lue, and Kurt Thomas with that money. No way. Thomas alone would have used 80% of the MLE. Mason's getting paid $2 million more than Eddie House over the next few years, for about the same production. And Ainge would be crucified by this blog if he'd paid Ty Lue $2.25 million this year.

Of the guys on your wish list, we did hear about overtures made to Anderson and Mutombo. And I advocated for picking up Ross in a trade with Memphis all throughout this season. But do you really think Pietrus, Barnes, or Pargo comes to Boston to play for a fraction of the MLE? Is Finley really going to leave his established position in San Antonio for even money, or less? Guys like Carter, Anderson, and Mutombo also had established ties to the teams that eventually signed or re-signed them. We were never really a consideration for some of these players.

Ainge's offseason was not only about this year, but next. Giddens and Walker are locked into cheap contracts. O'Bryant was a flier: if he'd panned out, he'd have been another cheap contract to help fill in the bench (sadly, he didn't). When the Big Three is taking up 75% of your payroll, what available money you have left has to be spread pretty thin to fill in the cracks. That means rookie contracts, Bird rights, minimum-level vets, and judicious use of your exceptions.
But the problem is he is going to have that same problem every year he is over the cap. All he is ever going to have to offer as long as the Big Three are together is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins.

Danny could very well have had Chris Anderson for the LLE, Anthony Johnson or Tyrone Lue for the LLE(as Lue had made overtures that he would take less to play in Boston), and Roger Mason, Mikael Pietrus, or Michael Finley for the MLE. Witth good negotiating he still might have had money left over to offer Mutombo a bit of the MLE.

I'm not saying all this was going to happen. What I am saying is that a major upgrade over what we got was able to be put together with what we had to offer this year. I don't believe we had serious financial restraints unless ownership went to Danny and told him he had only so much to offer(2/3 of the MLE and vet mins).

If that is indeed the case then Danny had little to work with but still might have done better than going with the, let's-just-keep-the-boyz-together philosophy, especially when one of those boyz is Tony Allen. That was a complete waste of $5 million IMO.

This year once again all Danny has to offer(if indeed POB was signed for a minimum contract and not the LLE) is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins. He has to bring back, contractually before trades

Rondo
Perk
KG
Pierce
Ray Allen
Tony Allen
Giddens
Walker
Pruitt
Scal

Eddie has a player option and could be back if he exercises it, or he could opt out. Baby and Leon are restricted. Because of what Danny did last year we are already handicapped with what we have next year. Of the 10 players under contract, unless there is big improvements happening, four of those players will probably be useless next post season.

That leaves Danny with having to try to fill out his playoff roster for next year this off season. So:

Sign Big Baby to what it takes. I don't know what that is but anything less than $5 million over 4 years should be right.

Offer the qualifying offer to Leon and hope he might be able to give you something next year. I think he's earned the right for the Celtics to give him that year.

If Eddie opts for the contract, great. If not, don't go crazy trying to re-sign him. He isn't worth more than what he is already signed for. I think he exercises the contract and stays.

That leaves two positions if Eddie stays, three if he leaves, that all of course is contingent on no trades happening.

So the MLE and LLE, each to a player and a vet mion signing should be more than enough just like it should have been more than enough this year. But if Leon isn't tendered and is let go and we see more cheap projects or low risk, high reward then we know Danny is being held back by ownership.

I think it was wdleehi that said in a thread this off season that low risk high reward players are good to have but when you have a bench full of them, then you get high risk, low reward and that is exactly what transpired this year.

Let's not do it again. Personally I see a trade happening and maybe a big, big one. I think everyone knows what that means. A certain SG might just be at the highest trading value that he will ever be at this off season with an unreal shooting year and a very desirable expiring $20 million contract.

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2009, 10:24:51 PM »

Offline cordobes

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As others have said, signing too many "low risk, high reward" players instead of guys that have a record of delivering the pork. I don't think that "let's gamble" (e.g. let's play the waivers market in February) is the right philosophy for the reigning champions.

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2009, 10:30:32 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Well, the deadline "Let's Take a Gamble" thing didn't entirely work out, did it? Mikki Moore is only marginally more useful - if that - than O'Blount. And Marbury's been pretty erratic.

It'd be nice to make a sincere, legitimate attenpt to build a bench in the summer.
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Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2009, 10:37:24 PM »

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Will the Celtics be able to afford to spend their MLE if they pay Glen Davis $4-5mil per annum? Would that not create a huge luxury tax bill?

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2009, 10:48:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Will the Celtics be able to afford to spend their MLE if they pay Glen Davis $4-5mil per annum? Would that not create a huge luxury tax bill?
Don't forget that Rondo is due a huge extension soon too. I don't know what they can and can't afford or what ownership is willing to pay in the luxury, but my guess is this off season we will find out if the this ownership group is more like Jeremy Jacobs or John Henry.

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2009, 10:49:39 PM »

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Will the Celtics be able to afford to spend their MLE if they pay Glen Davis $4-5mil per annum? Would that not create a huge luxury tax bill?
Okay, say the luxury tax threshold is $70mil next season. Sham Sports has the Celtics down for $73.75mil already, let's add Glen Davis at $4.25mil, to make that a nice round $78 million. That would have a luxury tax bill of $16mil already. Then add another $5mil from spending the MLE, and you'll be up around $25mil in a luxury tax bill.

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2009, 11:01:51 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Which may make a trade essential.

I don't see a major move; something more on the line of divesting the horrific contract of Tony Allen, along with Pruitt, Giddens, Walker and Scal available. Moore will be allowed to walk, and potentially Marbury as well.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2009, 11:06:29 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Which may make a trade essential.

I don't see a major move; something more on the line of divesting the horrific contract of Tony Allen, along with Pruitt, Giddens, Walker and Scal available. Moore will be allowed to walk, and potentially Marbury as well.
Yeah, I think the most Marbury could expect to stay as Rondo's back up and as a combo guard role is the LLE for 2 years. I think he'll get more than that on the open market. So what's important with him money and playing time or winning? We'll see.

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2009, 11:07:55 PM »

Online slamtheking

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Will the Celtics be able to afford to spend their MLE if they pay Glen Davis $4-5mil per annum? Would that not create a huge luxury tax bill?
Okay, say the luxury tax threshold is $70mil next season. Sham Sports has the Celtics down for $73.75mil already, let's add Glen Davis at $4.25mil, to make that a nice round $78 million. That would have a luxury tax bill of $16mil already. Then add another $5mil from spending the MLE, and you'll be up around $25mil in a luxury tax bill.

That's an excellent point that's overlooked.  A lot of money is already tied up in contracts and the unknown money of Rondo and either BBD or Powe (and maybe both) being thrown in.  With only the MLE, LLE and vet min available (and increasing the tax) Danny's in the situation where a trade is his best option for improvement---a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 most likely with a combination of TA, House, Scal (and or a possibly resigned Pruitt) to get a much better bench player.  With the other teams looking for salary dumps, those expiring deals next year are very attractive

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2009, 11:26:21 PM »

Offline Toine43

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My distaste for the handling of the last offseason is well documented. If Ainge didn't want to spend the money on the proven, veteran, role player Posey, all I wanted was that he sign proven, veteran, role players. I even suggested following their own advice. Both Ainge and Doc made comments stating that they were a better team when they played a conventional lineup with size and strength in the 4 slot and were not as good when they played Posey at the four. Sign three vetran players, one a big man, one a wing and one a PG was my suggestion. Although we couldn't afford it my suggestions of Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and Tyronne Lue would have been about what I was talking about.

Instead he did this:

- he sined a first round bust that couldn't run well for more than 15 minutes in his workout and who Don Nelson labeled a lazy player. He was a top ten pick that couldn't make it until his third year with the team that drafted him.

- he signed both rookies wasting a roster spot for a veteran that could have produced this year when sending one of those picks overseas would have been the smart thing to do as neither was obviously ready for contributing to the defense of an NBA title.

- he wasted valuable time trying to see if a near cripple could still play and entertained wasting yet another roster spot on Darius Miles even though he wasn't ready to play and had to serve a ten game suspension.

- he resigned Tony Allen and then compounded that lunacy by giving him a guaranteed 2 year contract even though he is an injury prone player. What happened? He got injured and missed significant time in which the team played as well as when he was on the team. Some could argue the team played better without him. Go figure?!

- He passed on numerous better, proven veterans that could have helped if used in their roles. Anthony Carter, Janero Pargo, Dasagna Diop, Roger Mason, Chris Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley, Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Dikembe Mutombo, Quinton Ross, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, etc., etc. All proven vets with no upside. Just proven in what they could give you and important to clubs across the league. And affordable. Sure some for more than the apparent $2.5 million per year, two year cap that the Celtics were seeming stuck with, but still affordable.

- He resigned and wasted yet another roster spot on Sam Cassel who, although he was a good influence on the development of Rondo, didn't play a single minute.

Reviewing, he brought in Cassel, O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, and Tony Allen and contemplated bringing in Miles and still had Pruitt signed. Basically, 40% of our roster was completely useless in the defense of the NBA title and were failures or developmental players. That is inexcusably bad front office management.

This is an excellent summary deserving of more than one TP, if I could give one.

Clearly, the off-season was predicated on the checkbook, not talent. That is a miscalculation that will play a significant role in the way this season concludes, and it must change if we hope to make a title run next year.

The biggest miscalculation was Posey - not necessarily that he wasn't resigned, although I continue to believe the decision on his contract to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The miscalculation was the total disregard for the broad collection of above-average skills he brought to the table: versatility. Defense, energy, outside shooting, physicality, rebounding. To fail to bring in anyone capable of replacing that skillset is a mistake of epic proportions.

It cannot be repeated this summer. We will not contend for a title with this roster.
Although it's clear that Danny messed up in a number of ways last summer and this season, it will never be proven that his mistakes led to a lost 2008-2009 season. Because as much as you may want to disagree, you can't deny that we would be contending for a title right now if we had a healthy KG and Powe. I'm sorry, but you just can't blame an injury to KG on Danny. If Powe and Scal both get hurt, and we're struggling, sure, you can blame it on "lack of preparedness for injuries" all you want. But it didn't matter who we brought in here over the summer - you can't prepare for an injury to a player as important as Keven Garnett.

You can point out Danny's mistakes, and I'll agree with most of what you say about them, but don't act like what's happening now is proof of those mistakes. It's not. KG is hurt, Leon Powe is hurt, and that simply makes it a lot harder for the Celtics to win games.


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Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2009, 11:32:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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My distaste for the handling of the last offseason is well documented. If Ainge didn't want to spend the money on the proven, veteran, role player Posey, all I wanted was that he sign proven, veteran, role players. I even suggested following their own advice. Both Ainge and Doc made comments stating that they were a better team when they played a conventional lineup with size and strength in the 4 slot and were not as good when they played Posey at the four. Sign three vetran players, one a big man, one a wing and one a PG was my suggestion. Although we couldn't afford it my suggestions of Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and Tyronne Lue would have been about what I was talking about.

Instead he did this:

- he sined a first round bust that couldn't run well for more than 15 minutes in his workout and who Don Nelson labeled a lazy player. He was a top ten pick that couldn't make it until his third year with the team that drafted him.

- he signed both rookies wasting a roster spot for a veteran that could have produced this year when sending one of those picks overseas would have been the smart thing to do as neither was obviously ready for contributing to the defense of an NBA title.

- he wasted valuable time trying to see if a near cripple could still play and entertained wasting yet another roster spot on Darius Miles even though he wasn't ready to play and had to serve a ten game suspension.

- he resigned Tony Allen and then compounded that lunacy by giving him a guaranteed 2 year contract even though he is an injury prone player. What happened? He got injured and missed significant time in which the team played as well as when he was on the team. Some could argue the team played better without him. Go figure?!

- He passed on numerous better, proven veterans that could have helped if used in their roles. Anthony Carter, Janero Pargo, Dasagna Diop, Roger Mason, Chris Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley, Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Dikembe Mutombo, Quinton Ross, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, etc., etc. All proven vets with no upside. Just proven in what they could give you and important to clubs across the league. And affordable. Sure some for more than the apparent $2.5 million per year, two year cap that the Celtics were seeming stuck with, but still affordable.

- He resigned and wasted yet another roster spot on Sam Cassel who, although he was a good influence on the development of Rondo, didn't play a single minute.

Reviewing, he brought in Cassel, O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, and Tony Allen and contemplated bringing in Miles and still had Pruitt signed. Basically, 40% of our roster was completely useless in the defense of the NBA title and were failures or developmental players. That is inexcusably bad front office management.

This is an excellent summary deserving of more than one TP, if I could give one.

Clearly, the off-season was predicated on the checkbook, not talent. That is a miscalculation that will play a significant role in the way this season concludes, and it must change if we hope to make a title run next year.

The biggest miscalculation was Posey - not necessarily that he wasn't resigned, although I continue to believe the decision on his contract to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The miscalculation was the total disregard for the broad collection of above-average skills he brought to the table: versatility. Defense, energy, outside shooting, physicality, rebounding. To fail to bring in anyone capable of replacing that skillset is a mistake of epic proportions.

It cannot be repeated this summer. We will not contend for a title with this roster.
Although it's clear that Danny messed up in a number of ways last summer and this season, it will never be proven that his mistakes led to a lost 2008-2009 season. Because as much as you may want to disagree, you can't deny that we would be contending for a title right now if we had a healthy KG and Powe. I'm sorry, but you just can't blame an injury to KG on Danny. If Powe and Scal both get hurt, and we're struggling, sure, you can blame it on "lack of preparedness for injuries" all you want. But it didn't matter who we brought in here over the summer - you can't prepare for an injury to a player as important as Keven Garnett.

You can point out Danny's mistakes, and I'll agree with most of what you say about them, but don't act like what's happening now is proof of those mistakes. It's not. KG is hurt, Leon Powe is hurt, and that simply makes it a lot harder for the Celtics to win games.
As I said before the season, while criticizing Danny's moves vociferously, this team still had what it took to win it all this year but Danny just made it a heck of a lot harder. I thought player improvement and the starters going long minutes in the playoffs could have been enough for a championship.

I still feel that way. But I also feel like if he had done a much better job of adding depth and taking into account an injury to a major player, we still would have had a chance at a championship. Clearly we still do, but in reality, that's a very long shot at this point.


Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2009, 12:01:28 AM »

Offline Toine43

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My distaste for the handling of the last offseason is well documented. If Ainge didn't want to spend the money on the proven, veteran, role player Posey, all I wanted was that he sign proven, veteran, role players. I even suggested following their own advice. Both Ainge and Doc made comments stating that they were a better team when they played a conventional lineup with size and strength in the 4 slot and were not as good when they played Posey at the four. Sign three vetran players, one a big man, one a wing and one a PG was my suggestion. Although we couldn't afford it my suggestions of Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and Tyronne Lue would have been about what I was talking about.

Instead he did this:

- he sined a first round bust that couldn't run well for more than 15 minutes in his workout and who Don Nelson labeled a lazy player. He was a top ten pick that couldn't make it until his third year with the team that drafted him.

- he signed both rookies wasting a roster spot for a veteran that could have produced this year when sending one of those picks overseas would have been the smart thing to do as neither was obviously ready for contributing to the defense of an NBA title.

- he wasted valuable time trying to see if a near cripple could still play and entertained wasting yet another roster spot on Darius Miles even though he wasn't ready to play and had to serve a ten game suspension.

- he resigned Tony Allen and then compounded that lunacy by giving him a guaranteed 2 year contract even though he is an injury prone player. What happened? He got injured and missed significant time in which the team played as well as when he was on the team. Some could argue the team played better without him. Go figure?!

- He passed on numerous better, proven veterans that could have helped if used in their roles. Anthony Carter, Janero Pargo, Dasagna Diop, Roger Mason, Chris Anderson, Kurt Thomas, Michael Finley, Anthony Johnson, Mikael Pietrus, Dikembe Mutombo, Quinton Ross, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, etc., etc. All proven vets with no upside. Just proven in what they could give you and important to clubs across the league. And affordable. Sure some for more than the apparent $2.5 million per year, two year cap that the Celtics were seeming stuck with, but still affordable.

- He resigned and wasted yet another roster spot on Sam Cassel who, although he was a good influence on the development of Rondo, didn't play a single minute.

Reviewing, he brought in Cassel, O'Bryant, Giddens, Walker, and Tony Allen and contemplated bringing in Miles and still had Pruitt signed. Basically, 40% of our roster was completely useless in the defense of the NBA title and were failures or developmental players. That is inexcusably bad front office management.

This is an excellent summary deserving of more than one TP, if I could give one.

Clearly, the off-season was predicated on the checkbook, not talent. That is a miscalculation that will play a significant role in the way this season concludes, and it must change if we hope to make a title run next year.

The biggest miscalculation was Posey - not necessarily that he wasn't resigned, although I continue to believe the decision on his contract to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The miscalculation was the total disregard for the broad collection of above-average skills he brought to the table: versatility. Defense, energy, outside shooting, physicality, rebounding. To fail to bring in anyone capable of replacing that skillset is a mistake of epic proportions.

It cannot be repeated this summer. We will not contend for a title with this roster.
Although it's clear that Danny messed up in a number of ways last summer and this season, it will never be proven that his mistakes led to a lost 2008-2009 season. Because as much as you may want to disagree, you can't deny that we would be contending for a title right now if we had a healthy KG and Powe. I'm sorry, but you just can't blame an injury to KG on Danny. If Powe and Scal both get hurt, and we're struggling, sure, you can blame it on "lack of preparedness for injuries" all you want. But it didn't matter who we brought in here over the summer - you can't prepare for an injury to a player as important as Keven Garnett.

You can point out Danny's mistakes, and I'll agree with most of what you say about them, but don't act like what's happening now is proof of those mistakes. It's not. KG is hurt, Leon Powe is hurt, and that simply makes it a lot harder for the Celtics to win games.
As I said before the season, while criticizing Danny's moves vociferously, this team still had what it took to win it all this year but Danny just made it a heck of a lot harder. I thought player improvement and the starters going long minutes in the playoffs could have been enough for a championship.

I still feel that way. But I also feel like if he had done a much better job of adding depth and taking into account an injury to a major player, we still would have had a chance at a championship. Clearly we still do, but in reality, that's a very long shot at this point.
Assuming we would have been serious contenders this year had we been healthy, the big question is whether we're still contenders with this roster next year. I say yes, providing that we're healthy, which may turn out to be the biggest question mark of all no matter what we decide to do this offseason.


Eddie House - for THREEEEEEE!

Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2009, 12:21:26 AM »

Offline Lucky17

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But the problem is he is going to have that same problem every year he is over the cap. All he is ever going to have to offer as long as the Big Three are together is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins.

Exactly right. We're going to have a similar offseason this year when it comes to free-agent signings, I believe.

Quote
Danny could very well have had Chris Anderson for the LLE, Anthony Johnson or Tyrone Lue for the LLE(as Lue had made overtures that he would take less to play in Boston), and Roger Mason, Mikael Pietrus, or Michael Finley for the MLE. Witth good negotiating he still might have had money left over to offer Mutombo a bit of the MLE.

I'm not saying all this was going to happen. What I am saying is that a major upgrade over what we got was able to be put together with what we had to offer this year. I don't believe we had serious financial restraints unless ownership went to Danny and told him he had only so much to offer(2/3 of the MLE and vet mins).

If that is indeed the case then Danny had little to work with but still might have done better than going with the, let's-just-keep-the-boyz-together philosophy, especially when one of those boyz is Tony Allen. That was a complete waste of $5 million IMO.

Assuming we somehow land Anderson with the vet minimum, and Johnson with the LLE, and one of those other three with the MLE, we have no Eddie House, and no real flexibility to get a big man in mid-season (Moore or Smith) or a scoring backup point guard (Marbury). If it's Finley with the MLE, we have no outside shooting in our backcourt; if it's Mason, we still have no viable wing defender. I don't see how Pietrus realistically turns down Orlando's sunsplashed and tax-free MLE deal for ours.

Tony Allen was Bird Rights, so it was essentially free money offered up (except for the luxury tax ramifications). It had no real financial impact on free agent signing.

Quote
This year once again all Danny has to offer(if indeed POB was signed for a minimum contract and not the LLE) is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins. He has to bring back, contractually before trades

Rondo
Perk
KG
Pierce
Ray Allen
Tony Allen
Giddens
Walker
Pruitt
Scal

Eddie has a player option and could be back if he exercises it, or he could opt out. Baby and Leon are restricted. Because of what Danny did last year we are already handicapped with what we have next year. Of the 10 players under contract, unless there is big improvements happening, four of those players will probably be useless next post season.

On the contrary, because of what Danny did last year, we still have full MLE, LLE, and vet minimums to offer up. Pruitt is a team option, while Walker and Giddens are young, cheap players with potential (i.e., trade bait). Tony Allen and Scal are both in the final years of their contracts, and we know how those contracts will be valued for teams looking to clear capspace for the big FA season in 2010.

Quote
That leaves Danny with having to try to fill out his playoff roster for next year this off season. So:

Sign Big Baby to what it takes. I don't know what that is but anything less than $5 million over 4 years should be right.

Offer the qualifying offer to Leon and hope he might be able to give you something next year. I think he's earned the right for the Celtics to give him that year.

If Eddie opts for the contract, great. If not, don't go crazy trying to re-sign him. He isn't worth more than what he is already signed for. I think he exercises the contract and stays.

That leaves two positions if Eddie stays, three if he leaves, that all of course is contingent on no trades happening.

So the MLE and LLE, each to a player and a vet mion signing should be more than enough just like it should have been more than enough this year. But if Leon isn't tendered and is let go and we see more cheap projects or low risk, high reward then we know Danny is being held back by ownership.

Complete agreement here. I think they'll be able to negotiate with Baby at a contract starting at around $3.5-$4 mil. I'm sure they'll do something with Powe for short money, and I don't think Eddie opts out.

Quote
I think it was wdleehi that said in a thread this off season that low risk high reward players are good to have but when you have a bench full of them, then you get high risk, low reward and that is exactly what transpired this year.

Let's not do it again. Personally I see a trade happening and maybe a big, big one. I think everyone knows what that means. A certain SG might just be at the highest trading value that he will ever be at this off season with an unreal shooting year and a very desirable expiring $20 million contract.

I don't think Ray is the one who's going. He's too integral to the team's ability to contend; he's proved incredibly consistent and efficient, is a consummate pro and teammate, and shows no signs of breaking down.

I expect a scenario whereby Tony and/or Scal is packaged with a young player or two from the Pruitt/Walker/Giddens crowd to address the team's needs for a backup point guard, wing, or big. Free agency will fill out the roster with journeyman types, with a small chunk of change left over for next season's deadline release (call it the rainy-day contingency fund).
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Re: D.A.'s biggest offseason screw up.
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2009, 03:41:33 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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But the problem is he is going to have that same problem every year he is over the cap. All he is ever going to have to offer as long as the Big Three are together is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins.

Exactly right. We're going to have a similar offseason this year when it comes to free-agent signings, I believe.

Quote
Danny could very well have had Chris Anderson for the LLE, Anthony Johnson or Tyrone Lue for the LLE(as Lue had made overtures that he would take less to play in Boston), and Roger Mason, Mikael Pietrus, or Michael Finley for the MLE. Witth good negotiating he still might have had money left over to offer Mutombo a bit of the MLE.

I'm not saying all this was going to happen. What I am saying is that a major upgrade over what we got was able to be put together with what we had to offer this year. I don't believe we had serious financial restraints unless ownership went to Danny and told him he had only so much to offer(2/3 of the MLE and vet mins).

If that is indeed the case then Danny had little to work with but still might have done better than going with the, let's-just-keep-the-boyz-together philosophy, especially when one of those boyz is Tony Allen. That was a complete waste of $5 million IMO.

Assuming we somehow land Anderson with the vet minimum, and Johnson with the LLE, and one of those other three with the MLE, we have no Eddie House, and no real flexibility to get a big man in mid-season (Moore or Smith) or a scoring backup point guard (Marbury). If it's Finley with the MLE, we have no outside shooting in our backcourt; if it's Mason, we still have no viable wing defender. I don't see how Pietrus realistically turns down Orlando's sunsplashed and tax-free MLE deal for ours.

Tony Allen was Bird Rights, so it was essentially free money offered up (except for the luxury tax ramifications). It had no real financial impact on free agent signing.

Quote
This year once again all Danny has to offer(if indeed POB was signed for a minimum contract and not the LLE) is the MLE, the LLE and vet mins. He has to bring back, contractually before trades

Rondo
Perk
KG
Pierce
Ray Allen
Tony Allen
Giddens
Walker
Pruitt
Scal

Eddie has a player option and could be back if he exercises it, or he could opt out. Baby and Leon are restricted. Because of what Danny did last year we are already handicapped with what we have next year. Of the 10 players under contract, unless there is big improvements happening, four of those players will probably be useless next post season.

On the contrary, because of what Danny did last year, we still have full MLE, LLE, and vet minimums to offer up. Pruitt is a team option, while Walker and Giddens are young, cheap players with potential (i.e., trade bait). Tony Allen and Scal are both in the final years of their contracts, and we know how those contracts will be valued for teams looking to clear capspace for the big FA season in 2010.

Quote
That leaves Danny with having to try to fill out his playoff roster for next year this off season. So:

Sign Big Baby to what it takes. I don't know what that is but anything less than $5 million over 4 years should be right.

Offer the qualifying offer to Leon and hope he might be able to give you something next year. I think he's earned the right for the Celtics to give him that year.

If Eddie opts for the contract, great. If not, don't go crazy trying to re-sign him. He isn't worth more than what he is already signed for. I think he exercises the contract and stays.

That leaves two positions if Eddie stays, three if he leaves, that all of course is contingent on no trades happening.

So the MLE and LLE, each to a player and a vet mion signing should be more than enough just like it should have been more than enough this year. But if Leon isn't tendered and is let go and we see more cheap projects or low risk, high reward then we know Danny is being held back by ownership.

Complete agreement here. I think they'll be able to negotiate with Baby at a contract starting at around $3.5-$4 mil. I'm sure they'll do something with Powe for short money, and I don't think Eddie opts out.

Quote
I think it was wdleehi that said in a thread this off season that low risk high reward players are good to have but when you have a bench full of them, then you get high risk, low reward and that is exactly what transpired this year.

Let's not do it again. Personally I see a trade happening and maybe a big, big one. I think everyone knows what that means. A certain SG might just be at the highest trading value that he will ever be at this off season with an unreal shooting year and a very desirable expiring $20 million contract.

I don't think Ray is the one who's going. He's too integral to the team's ability to contend; he's proved incredibly consistent and efficient, is a consummate pro and teammate, and shows no signs of breaking down.

I expect a scenario whereby Tony and/or Scal is packaged with a young player or two from the Pruitt/Walker/Giddens crowd to address the team's needs for a backup point guard, wing, or big. Free agency will fill out the roster with journeyman types, with a small chunk of change left over for next season's deadline release (call it the rainy-day contingency fund).
If we had landed Anderson, Mason and Johnson and didn't sign Allen and Eddie and Cassel we would not have needed our mid-season addition of a big man because of Anderson and would have Anderson now instead of Moore. We would not have needed Marbury at mid-season either and would now have an integrated Johnson backing up Rondo. We also would have had a guaranteed wing rotation of Mason, Allen and Pierce that would have resulted in less minutes for both Allen and Pierce with fewer drop offs in production. Also, Danny could have sent Walker overseas and signed a SF. The point was if he had done it that way all the things we lack now and lacked at the mid season point wouldn't have been necessary. Also, no Tony Allen is addition by subtraction.


If he done what I suggested we would have Mason long term, Giddens, Pruitt, still own the rights to a one year seasoned Bill Walker who we could sign this year to whatever we want, Scalabrine and the MLE and vet minimums once again. The only thing he wouldn't have is the LLE.


I love Ray Allen and think he would be great for this team next year and maybe another year after that. But he wouldn't be worth the money and/or years we would have to give him thereafter to get him for the 2010-2011 season. That being true he won't get more in return than he will this off season after he had the season he did and with a huge expiring contract that coincides with the big 2010 free agent off season.

Remember what Danny has been quoted about how Boston and Jan Volk made a mistake in keeping the original Big Three and how he would have trade one or two or all to have kept Boston competitive. It's the same scenario now and if he lets Ray expire and can't re-sign him, he is still over the cap that year and now without any money to replace him. Ray will be signing his last big contract and it's a contract that could really hurt this team long term.

Better to deal him to improve the team now and for a period of time longer than what Ray alone could have provided. Howard just turned 28 and we would own his Bird rights and both players are signed through the 2011 season. If the C's wanted to change big time that would be a better season as Pierce, Terry, and Howard would all expire with over $45 million coming off the books.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 04:01:33 AM by nickagneta »