I know nobody has thought of moving Ray Allen this offseason, but...

[kenmaine]

At Ray's age, if you can get something close to value but much younger, this offseason, I think you do it. Danny can keep this window of winning open for a long time if he trades expiring contracts while they hold some value.

A trade I like a lot is Ray Allen and Giddens for AK47 and Brewer.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5059361

Not bad.  I would prefer to swap Walker for Giddens, though.  And I would have a really tough time swallowing AK47s contract.

It's only a year longer than Ray's and he is much younger. Brewer would become the starter and AK47 would become our super sixth man, like James Posey was last year.Plus, when AK47 contract expires, the Celtics could probably resign him for 1/3 of his current contract.

Yeah, but we lose a lot of offensive punch.  I think Brewer is great, but in all seriousness I would have a hard time choosing between the trade above and TA+Scal to NO for James Posey.  The latter keeps the core together, and adds a 6th man who is cheaper and more proven (IMHO) than AK47 (BTW: this is a not "bring back Posey opining", merely the use of a convenient example).

Again, I think people keep thinking that two good players are equal to 1 great player, but that's not the case, especially in the NBA.  Could a trade like that help us in the regular season?  Maybe.  It'd give the C's more bodies in the rotation.  However, the C's are going to be good in the regular season anyway.  What really matters is playoff time.  And in a close playoff game, having two good players in place of Ray isn't going to help things.  All it will mean is that a guy like Brewer is on the bench while the inferior-to-Ray Kirilenko is in the game.  And that's no upgrade for the C's. 

That's a great point. A team with ten really good players will not beat a team with three great players, at  least not in a playoff series.
And if we ever end up with Eddy Curry, I'll have a legitimate reason to cancel my Dish and save $70+/month.

[CoachBo]

I think there will be vehicles to improve this club without a draconian move like breaking up the Big Three.

[wiley]

Original post:  Detroit wouldn't do that and if it happened you'd want to bring Prince off the bench, not Pierce....

Brewer and Kirilenko downgrades the Celtics in the present and is risky to boot, as you not only lose Ray but give up an unknown commodity in Giddens.  The Celts WILL need players down the road...(though I guess Brewer ain't much older than Giddens, if at all..)

I believe Ray should be kept.  I'd be open to an experiment where he comes off the bench next year, however.  Are there any excellent defending 2 guards who are big enough to also back up Pierce?  Any larger-sized Tony Allens who can play the 2 and who will shut down twos and threes (I'm talking about giving up some offense for starting out the games in major shutdown mode)

I think the Celtics can and should take their defense up another notch next year.  I love Ray as a starter, but I also think he could be a sublime bench player next year, and sure he'd be in their more often than not at the end of games....

Can and does Brewer guard small forwards?   Can we get him without giving up Ray Allen?  Is he the guy I want to start in place of Ray next year?  Is he a major stud defender?

[Master Po]

I haven't posted in the forums at least in a year I don't think but this one brought me in. i only have to say your title of this forum post says it all: "I know nobody has thought of moving Ray Allen this offseason, but..."

Nobody but maybe for DA for a nanosecond should be thinking about it because it has no basis in common sense or team sense reality - to me anyway.

A future HOF who gels with KG and PP in the best way, an excellent teacher, a rock solid mentor, a guy who hits big shots, a guy who takes care of his body, a guy who is not getting knocked down a lot to wear out his body and he helped us raise banner 17  - they don't come along everyday like Ray Allen in the NBA. Show this classy guy the respect he deserves and simply keep him in green as long as he wants to be here. Trade Ray Allen? hahahaha - would be a bad bad move.

[Chief]

At Ray's age, if you can get something close to value but much younger, this offseason, I think you do it. Danny can keep this window of winning open for a long time if he trades expiring contracts while they hold some value.

A trade I like a lot is Ray Allen and Giddens for AK47 and Brewer.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5059361

Not bad.  I would prefer to swap Walker for Giddens, though.  And I would have a really tough time swallowing AK47s contract.

It's only a year longer than Ray's and he is much younger. Brewer would become the starter and AK47 would become our super sixth man, like James Posey was last year.Plus, when AK47 contract expires, the Celtics could probably resign him for 1/3 of his current contract.

Yeah, but we lose a lot of offensive punch.  I think Brewer is great, but in all seriousness I would have a hard time choosing between the trade above and TA+Scal to NO for James Posey.  The latter keeps the core together, and adds a 6th man who is cheaper and more proven (IMHO) than AK47 (BTW: this is a not "bring back Posey opining", merely the use of a convenient example).

Again, I think people keep thinking that two good players are equal to 1 great player, but that's not the case, especially in the NBA.  Could a trade like that help us in the regular season?  Maybe.  It'd give the C's more bodies in the rotation.  However, the C's are going to be good in the regular season anyway.  What really matters is playoff time.  And in a close playoff game, having two good players in place of Ray isn't going to help things.  All it will mean is that a guy like Brewer is on the bench while the inferior-to-Ray Kirilenko is in the game.  And that's no upgrade for the C's. 

That's a great point. A team with ten really good players will not beat a team with three great players, at  least not in a playoff series.
And if we ever end up with Eddy Curry, I'll have a legitimate reason to cancel my Dish and save $70+/month.

Your theory works if Ray remains a top tier player after turning 34. Something that many great shooters like Mitch Richmond and Glenn Rice were unable to do.  Also, Rondo talent wise has surpassed Ray Allen, IMO. So the C's still have a "Big 3" just different players. And no it's not rebuilding. It's keeping a potential dynasty team good for many years, not just three.

[illantari]

Your theory works if Ray remains a top tier player after turning 34. Something that many great shooters like Mitch Richmond and Glenn Rice were unable to do.  Also, Rondo talent wise has surpassed Ray Allen, IMO. So the C's still have a "Big 3" just different players. And no it's not rebuilding. It's keeping a potential dynasty team good for many years, not just three.

Am I the only one in the world that thinks that the fact that Rondo is getting better gives us even LESS reason to trade Ray Ray?  I mean, doesn't that just mean that what we have is an extremely potent team which gives the guys their best shot at a title?  A KG-Pierce-Ray-Rondo lineup is still (IMHO) better built for playoff success that a KG-Prince/Pierce (common, you gotta start the captain)/Hamilton/Rondo lineup.  If you have the potential for a Big 4, why give it up for a Big 3 and a half rather than keeping your Big 4?  Why have Rondo REPLACE Ray rather than having Rondo AUGMENT Ray/existing stars?  KG and Pierce's windows aren't that much longer, so we have to win now anyways.

Also.  Eddy Curry.  A Celtic.  Just... I can't even think about that right now.

[Jon]

Your theory works if Ray remains a top tier player after turning 34. Something that many great shooters like Mitch Richmond and Glenn Rice were unable to do.  Also, Rondo talent wise has surpassed Ray Allen, IMO. So the C's still have a "Big 3" just different players. And no it's not rebuilding. It's keeping a potential dynasty team good for many years, not just three.

Am I the only one in the world that thinks that the fact that Rondo is getting better gives us even LESS reason to trade Ray Ray?  I mean, doesn't that just mean that what we have is an extremely potent team which gives the guys their best shot at a title?  A KG-Pierce-Ray-Rondo lineup is still (IMHO) better built for playoff success that a KG-Prince/Pierce (common, you gotta start the captain)/Hamilton/Rondo lineup.  If you have the potential for a Big 4, why give it up for a Big 3 and a half rather than keeping your Big 4?  Why have Rondo REPLACE Ray rather than having Rondo AUGMENT Ray/existing stars?  KG and Pierce's windows aren't that much longer, so we have to win now anyways.

Also.  Eddy Curry.  A Celtic.  Just... I can't even think about that right now.

This is exactly the case.  I don't think that people realize how hard it is to find so many good players who play well together.  Not only is it a huge gamble to think someone we trade for can be as good as Ray, it's an even bigger gamble to assume he can fit in.  And unlike the Marbury deal when we can just say we'll cut him, if we trade Ray away for someone who is to replace him, this player must then make up for him. 

As for the age thing, I don't think it matters at all.  There really is very little to lose for holding onto Ray for too long.  He's always going to have value as an expiring deal, whether it's after next season, the season after that, or the season after that.  And no one's going to offer more for him next year, because he'll still have "something to give."  Any team who trades for him will be looking to rebuild, and how much Ray has left will be irrelevant.  And if no one wants him when we go to trade him, we'll just let him go and clear his cap space. 

Trading him would only make sense if he tore an ACL or something and couldn't produce for a long time. 

[Chief]

Your theory works if Ray remains a top tier player after turning 34. Something that many great shooters like Mitch Richmond and Glenn Rice were unable to do.  Also, Rondo talent wise has surpassed Ray Allen, IMO. So the C's still have a "Big 3" just different players. And no it's not rebuilding. It's keeping a potential dynasty team good for many years, not just three.

Am I the only one in the world that thinks that the fact that Rondo is getting better gives us even LESS reason to trade Ray Ray?  I mean, doesn't that just mean that what we have is an extremely potent team which gives the guys their best shot at a title?  A KG-Pierce-Ray-Rondo lineup is still (IMHO) better built for playoff success that a KG-Prince/Pierce (common, you gotta start the captain)/Hamilton/Rondo lineup.  If you have the potential for a Big 4, why give it up for a Big 3 and a half rather than keeping your Big 4?  Why have Rondo REPLACE Ray rather than having Rondo AUGMENT Ray/existing stars?  KG and Pierce's windows aren't that much longer, so we have to win now anyways.

Also.  Eddy Curry.  A Celtic.  Just... I can't even think about that right now.

This is exactly the case.  I don't think that people realize how hard it is to find so many good players who play well together.  Not only is it a huge gamble to think someone we trade for can be as good as Ray, it's an even bigger gamble to assume he can fit in.  And unlike the Marbury deal when we can just say we'll cut him, if we trade Ray away for someone who is to replace him, this player must then make up for him. 

As for the age thing, I don't think it matters at all.  There really is very little to lose for holding onto Ray for too long.  He's always going to have value as an expiring deal, whether it's after next season, the season after that, or the season after that.  And no one's going to offer more for him next year, because he'll still have "something to give."  Any team who trades for him will be looking to rebuild, and how much Ray has left will be irrelevant.  And if no one wants him when we go to trade him, we'll just let him go and clear his cap space. 

Trading him would only make sense if he tore an ACL or something and couldn't produce for a long time. 

I think the Bulls and Spurs championship teams did it very well. I also believe Danny Ainge is a great talent evaluator and will bring in younger pieces that fit well.

[davemonsterband]

Rip for Ray is a terrible idea, Rip and Paul clash, too similar with the mid range game.

[Jon]

Your theory works if Ray remains a top tier player after turning 34. Something that many great shooters like Mitch Richmond and Glenn Rice were unable to do.  Also, Rondo talent wise has surpassed Ray Allen, IMO. So the C's still have a "Big 3" just different players. And no it's not rebuilding. It's keeping a potential dynasty team good for many years, not just three.

Am I the only one in the world that thinks that the fact that Rondo is getting better gives us even LESS reason to trade Ray Ray?  I mean, doesn't that just mean that what we have is an extremely potent team which gives the guys their best shot at a title?  A KG-Pierce-Ray-Rondo lineup is still (IMHO) better built for playoff success that a KG-Prince/Pierce (common, you gotta start the captain)/Hamilton/Rondo lineup.  If you have the potential for a Big 4, why give it up for a Big 3 and a half rather than keeping your Big 4?  Why have Rondo REPLACE Ray rather than having Rondo AUGMENT Ray/existing stars?  KG and Pierce's windows aren't that much longer, so we have to win now anyways.

Also.  Eddy Curry.  A Celtic.  Just... I can't even think about that right now.

This is exactly the case.  I don't think that people realize how hard it is to find so many good players who play well together.  Not only is it a huge gamble to think someone we trade for can be as good as Ray, it's an even bigger gamble to assume he can fit in.  And unlike the Marbury deal when we can just say we'll cut him, if we trade Ray away for someone who is to replace him, this player must then make up for him. 

As for the age thing, I don't think it matters at all.  There really is very little to lose for holding onto Ray for too long.  He's always going to have value as an expiring deal, whether it's after next season, the season after that, or the season after that.  And no one's going to offer more for him next year, because he'll still have "something to give."  Any team who trades for him will be looking to rebuild, and how much Ray has left will be irrelevant.  And if no one wants him when we go to trade him, we'll just let him go and clear his cap space. 

Trading him would only make sense if he tore an ACL or something and couldn't produce for a long time. 

I think the Bulls and Spurs championship teams did it very well. I also believe Danny Ainge is a great talent evaluator and will bring in younger pieces that fit well.

That was one team in the '90s and one team in the new millennium, which is exactly my point: it's not easy to find elite players that mesh together. 

And while Ainge may be a good evaluator of talent, like all great GMs, he got extremely lucky a couple years ago and found the perfect storm: two teams looking to trade elite players for expiring contracts and young talent.  And it just so happened that those two players' games meshed nearly perfectly with the superstar that was here.   The chance of that ever happening again is nearly zero. 

The C's have something pretty special right now.  They shouldn't waste it and they especially shouldn't think they can just simply replace Ray with sub par players and expect the same result. 

[CoachBo]

From this seat, the obsession with the off-season should be on getting better, not younger.

As Roy has pointed out before, we need to add quality veterans who can bolster a championship run next season. If younger means "low risk, no upside" players like several of those we added last summer, then I want no part of that. The kind of help we need isn't going to come from the draft, and you're not going to find it in the dumpsters around the league, either.

TP to Jon above for an excellent point: There was a high level of serendipity in the events of summer 2007. Two clubs looking to dump stars for pennies on the dollar. Danny didn't have any dollars in his pocket, but he had a bunch of pennies and the two clubs sold out to him for change. Right place, right time? Yes. But lucky, also.

I'd like Ainge to ask himself this question before each and every signing this summer: "How does this guy help us win a championship this year?" If he does that, he won't sign the O'Bryants, Miles, etc.

[Roy Hobbs]

Let's not trade Ray.