Rondo's defense is overrated

[KCattheStripe]

If the problem is Rondo's ankle then he should of been held out games at the end of the season. So what if we fall to the #3 seed. Playing Philly doesn't look that awful right now either. I mentioned Rondo's inability to stay in front of his man in the game thread. That's huge and more important than steals.

If the intention was for Rondo to stay with his man all the way to the hoop, don't you think Doc would tell Rondo or have made that clear at this point?  Have you noticed that Rondo isn't staying in front of his man...but also that - until the Rose explosion yesterday - that man was generally hitting a brick wall and not scoring?

Again, that's [Rondo staying w his man all the way to the hoop] not how this defense is designed.  It's designed to take chances and to funnel penetration to the bigs and keep the guards free from the hoop so they can help on the perimeter.

These players and coaches have been playing and or coaching bball their whole life, please do not Monday Morning QB them on stuff that is plainly obvious.  There is a reason scouts think Rondo's D is money and we have fans on here thinking he's a liability, it's b/c the fans don't know what they're talking about.

So are you an NBA player, scout, or coach? Which one?

I coach basketball and I can tell you that Rondo wasn't "funneling" yesterday. He was getting beat. Rondo's defense can be "money," but it wasn't yesterday. Whether that was do to his ankle I don't know, but his defense was poor (and this is coming from a guy that loves Rondo's game).

Well put, johnnyrondo.

-sw

I don't think it was well put, as a matter of fact it was fairly stand offish. Especially when I'm sure the scouts he was referring to were the one's from Ian Thompson's article a week ago which read:

All-Defensive First Team.

G Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Rondo was the surprise here. "Off the ball, he takes chances and he's not solid,'' a panelist said. "But I love his ability to get everybody on the team to defend. Garnett has the fanfare, and he deserves it, but when Garnett has been out, you notice that this guy [Rondo] is the guy who goes out to meet the ball. I love the way he gets over the screens, plays the 1 and 2 and at times he has even played Kobe Bryant on defense. When they have to have a major stop, it's Rondo. He sets the tone out front and gets them to be good defensive team.''

KC, I believe that the all defensive first team they were talking about was for the regular season. I doubt scouts would put him on the "All Defensive Playoffs Game 1 First Team". He had a poor game defensively and you need to "bring it" even more in the playoffs. Hopefully he does a better job in gm 2 (unless it's injury related. Then we're in even bigger trouble).

Yes, but the general tone of this thread has turned to " his defense has been terrible all season". In fact the title of this thread is " Rondo's defense is overrated" not " My GOD did Rondo play horribly yesterday". So I didn't feel he was out of line to say that we're all monday morning QBing ( a perk of this blog) and that the people who actually get paid to watch and analyze basketball say quite definitively that he is a very good defender.
I personally didn't think his defense was terrible considering two things A) the amount of time Rose had the ball in his hand and Rondo had to guard him. B) Rose made a number of high difficulty to impossible shots, and realize what that means. If the shots were of a high difficulty, why was that? The defense, maybe not of Rondo exclusively but of the team at least.

[Chief]

I think Rondo struggles, at times, with people as quick or quicker than he is. Having said that, I think he'll make the adjustments and play better defensively the rest of the series.

[bleedinggreen34]

If the problem is Rondo's ankle then he should of been held out games at the end of the season. So what if we fall to the #3 seed. Playing Philly doesn't look that awful right now either. I mentioned Rondo's inability to stay in front of his man in the game thread. That's huge and more important than steals.

If the intention was for Rondo to stay with his man all the way to the hoop, don't you think Doc would tell Rondo or have made that clear at this point?  Have you noticed that Rondo isn't staying in front of his man...but also that - until the Rose explosion yesterday - that man was generally hitting a brick wall and not scoring?

Again, that's [Rondo staying w his man all the way to the hoop] not how this defense is designed.  It's designed to take chances and to funnel penetration to the bigs and keep the guards free from the hoop so they can help on the perimeter.

These players and coaches have been playing and or coaching bball their whole life, please do not Monday Morning QB them on stuff that is plainly obvious.  There is a reason scouts think Rondo's D is money and we have fans on here thinking he's a liability, it's b/c the fans don't know what they're talking about.

So are you an NBA player, scout, or coach? Which one?

I coach basketball and I can tell you that Rondo wasn't "funneling" yesterday. He was getting beat. Rondo's defense can be "money," but it wasn't yesterday. Whether that was do to his ankle I don't know, but his defense was poor (and this is coming from a guy that loves Rondo's game).

Well put, johnnyrondo.

-sw

I don't think it was well put, as a matter of fact it was fairly stand offish. Especially when I'm sure the scouts he was referring to were the one's from Ian Thompson's article a week ago which read:

All-Defensive First Team.

G Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Rondo was the surprise here. "Off the ball, he takes chances and he's not solid,'' a panelist said. "But I love his ability to get everybody on the team to defend. Garnett has the fanfare, and he deserves it, but when Garnett has been out, you notice that this guy [Rondo] is the guy who goes out to meet the ball. I love the way he gets over the screens, plays the 1 and 2 and at times he has even played Kobe Bryant on defense. When they have to have a major stop, it's Rondo. He sets the tone out front and gets them to be good defensive team.''

KC, I believe that the all defensive first team they were talking about was for the regular season. I doubt scouts would put him on the "All Defensive Playoffs Game 1 First Team". He had a poor game defensively and you need to "bring it" even more in the playoffs. Hopefully he does a better job in gm 2 (unless it's injury related. Then we're in even bigger trouble).

If Rondo was not playing D the way it was designed to be played, don't you think Doc would've done something about it?  The problem was in the front court. 

When they went small on defense with a minute left, Big Baby was in the game, missed a rotation and Rose had a lay-up.  The next defensive set, Perk replaced him.  Rondo rarely left the whole game, no matter what Rose did.  Do the math.  The problem was in the frontcourt D.

[yoursweatersux]

If the problem is Rondo's ankle then he should of been held out games at the end of the season. So what if we fall to the #3 seed. Playing Philly doesn't look that awful right now either. I mentioned Rondo's inability to stay in front of his man in the game thread. That's huge and more important than steals.

If the intention was for Rondo to stay with his man all the way to the hoop, don't you think Doc would tell Rondo or have made that clear at this point?  Have you noticed that Rondo isn't staying in front of his man...but also that - until the Rose explosion yesterday - that man was generally hitting a brick wall and not scoring?

Again, that's [Rondo staying w his man all the way to the hoop] not how this defense is designed.  It's designed to take chances and to funnel penetration to the bigs and keep the guards free from the hoop so they can help on the perimeter.

These players and coaches have been playing and or coaching bball their whole life, please do not Monday Morning QB them on stuff that is plainly obvious.  There is a reason scouts think Rondo's D is money and we have fans on here thinking he's a liability, it's b/c the fans don't know what they're talking about.

So are you an NBA player, scout, or coach? Which one?

I coach basketball and I can tell you that Rondo wasn't "funneling" yesterday. He was getting beat. Rondo's defense can be "money," but it wasn't yesterday. Whether that was do to his ankle I don't know, but his defense was poor (and this is coming from a guy that loves Rondo's game).

Well put, johnnyrondo.

-sw

I don't think it was well put, as a matter of fact it was fairly stand offish. Especially when I'm sure the scouts he was referring to were the one's from Ian Thompson's article a week ago which read:

All-Defensive First Team.

G Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Rondo was the surprise here. "Off the ball, he takes chances and he's not solid,'' a panelist said. "But I love his ability to get everybody on the team to defend. Garnett has the fanfare, and he deserves it, but when Garnett has been out, you notice that this guy [Rondo] is the guy who goes out to meet the ball. I love the way he gets over the screens, plays the 1 and 2 and at times he has even played Kobe Bryant on defense. When they have to have a major stop, it's Rondo. He sets the tone out front and gets them to be good defensive team.''

KC, I believe that the all defensive first team they were talking about was for the regular season. I doubt scouts would put him on the "All Defensive Playoffs Game 1 First Team". He had a poor game defensively and you need to "bring it" even more in the playoffs. Hopefully he does a better job in gm 2 (unless it's injury related. Then we're in even bigger trouble).

If Rondo was not playing D the way it was designed to be played, don't you think Doc would've done something about it?  The problem was in the front court. 

When they went small on defense with a minute left, Big Baby was in the game, missed a rotation and Rose had a lay-up.  The next defensive set, Perk replaced him.  Rondo rarely left the whole game, no matter what Rose did.  Do the math.  The problem was in the frontcourt D.

I'm usually not this contentious, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you really think that coaches will yank starters for poor defense, you've obviously never watched the NBA. Did Doc yell at him a bit for it? I'm sure he did. But when everybody else is playing lackluster defense as well, what are you gonna do, yank every player off the court, including the only player that's having a good offensive game?

Your conclusion that you can judge how good a player is playing by when they get subbed is hilarious... seriously, think about what you're saying.

[KCattheStripe]

If the problem is Rondo's ankle then he should of been held out games at the end of the season. So what if we fall to the #3 seed. Playing Philly doesn't look that awful right now either. I mentioned Rondo's inability to stay in front of his man in the game thread. That's huge and more important than steals.

If the intention was for Rondo to stay with his man all the way to the hoop, don't you think Doc would tell Rondo or have made that clear at this point?  Have you noticed that Rondo isn't staying in front of his man...but also that - until the Rose explosion yesterday - that man was generally hitting a brick wall and not scoring?

Again, that's [Rondo staying w his man all the way to the hoop] not how this defense is designed.  It's designed to take chances and to funnel penetration to the bigs and keep the guards free from the hoop so they can help on the perimeter.

These players and coaches have been playing and or coaching bball their whole life, please do not Monday Morning QB them on stuff that is plainly obvious.  There is a reason scouts think Rondo's D is money and we have fans on here thinking he's a liability, it's b/c the fans don't know what they're talking about.

So are you an NBA player, scout, or coach? Which one?

I coach basketball and I can tell you that Rondo wasn't "funneling" yesterday. He was getting beat. Rondo's defense can be "money," but it wasn't yesterday. Whether that was do to his ankle I don't know, but his defense was poor (and this is coming from a guy that loves Rondo's game).

Well put, johnnyrondo.

-sw

I don't think it was well put, as a matter of fact it was fairly stand offish. Especially when I'm sure the scouts he was referring to were the one's from Ian Thompson's article a week ago which read:

All-Defensive First Team.

G Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Rondo was the surprise here. "Off the ball, he takes chances and he's not solid,'' a panelist said. "But I love his ability to get everybody on the team to defend. Garnett has the fanfare, and he deserves it, but when Garnett has been out, you notice that this guy [Rondo] is the guy who goes out to meet the ball. I love the way he gets over the screens, plays the 1 and 2 and at times he has even played Kobe Bryant on defense. When they have to have a major stop, it's Rondo. He sets the tone out front and gets them to be good defensive team.''

KC, I believe that the all defensive first team they were talking about was for the regular season. I doubt scouts would put him on the "All Defensive Playoffs Game 1 First Team". He had a poor game defensively and you need to "bring it" even more in the playoffs. Hopefully he does a better job in gm 2 (unless it's injury related. Then we're in even bigger trouble).

If Rondo was not playing D the way it was designed to be played, don't you think Doc would've done something about it?  The problem was in the front court. 

When they went small on defense with a minute left, Big Baby was in the game, missed a rotation and Rose had a lay-up.  The next defensive set, Perk replaced him.  Rondo rarely left the whole game, no matter what Rose did.  Do the math.  The problem was in the frontcourt D.

I'm usually not this contentious, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you really think that coaches will yank starters for poor defense, you've obviously never watched the NBA. Did Doc yell at him a bit for it? I'm sure he did. But when everybody else is playing lackluster defense as well, what are you gonna do, yank every player off the court, including the only player that's having a good offensive game?

Your conclusion that you can judge how good a player is playing by when they get subbed is hilarious... seriously, think about what you're saying.

By that point both Baby and Pierce were having good offensive games as well.

[yoursweatersux]

Ray played 40 minutes. He must've been amazing I guess.

[jambr380]

This thread is a little disgusting- Rondo was far and away the best player on wearing a green jersey in Saturday's game. Allen is the one who failed this team and I think/hope he will turn that around tonight.

Rondo has been a very solid defender all year long and you all are saying how overrated he is because of this one game. I am sure someone will respond to this saying they have been thought this all along- but I would want proof of this in prior threads.

Frankly, if there was no Rondo on Saturday, the Celtics would have been blown out. We had a nice start from Perk and a nice finish (err, kinda) from Pierce, but Rondo was consistent all game- even if he did have a hard time staying in front of Rose (and yes, he did get picked off more often than not).

[Chris]

Rondo has been a very solid defender all year long and you all are saying how overrated he is because of this one game. I am sure someone will respond to this saying they have been thought this all along- but I would want proof of this in prior threads.

I haven't had a chance to read the rest of the thread yet, but I just wanted to point out that the argument that Rondo is an overrated defender has been going on much longer than this one game. 

Personally, I think Rondo is an average defender, who has some terrible habits that get him in trouble, but he is able to make up for them many times with his speed and quick hands. 

Unfortunately, you can't get away with that against guys like Rose, who are just as athletic, and protect the ball well.  I don't think Rondo was terrible defensively on Saturday, but I do think there was a lot of room for improvement.  If he digs in more consistently, instead of leaning back, waiting for the pick, then he can stay in front of Rose a lot better. 

[yoursweatersux]

This thread is a little disgusting- Rondo was far and away the best player on wearing a green jersey in Saturday's game. Allen is the one who failed this team and I think/hope he will turn that around tonight.

Rondo has been a very solid defender all year long and you all are saying how overrated he is because of this one game. I am sure someone will respond to this saying they have been thought this all along- but I would want proof of this in prior threads.

Frankly, if there was no Rondo on Saturday, the Celtics would have been blown out. We had a nice start from Perk and a nice finish (err, kinda) from Pierce, but Rondo was consistent all game- even if he did have a hard time staying in front of Rose (and yes, he did get picked off more often than not).

As the guy above me stated, this debate has been going on for a lot longer than this thread. Honestly, I thought his defense was better last year and I've been ragging on his tendency to gamble for steals this entire season. I don't make too many posts so I'm not sure there's any prior evidence of me complaining about that on celticsblog, but you should probably at least take my word since I'm not (quite) pathetic enough to make up a lie in order to bolster my argument on some internet forum. So the fact of the matter is, this isn't just a one-game overreaction. It's an actual problem that Rondo and Doc need to work out.

What I HAVE stated recently, in another thread, is that I still think the Celtics are going to win this series. I agree... there are plenty of fair-weather fans on here who think the sky is falling after a single bad game. In fact, as long as Ray doesn't have another abysmal game, we'll be able to win with Rondo playing the mediocre defense he's been playing most of the season.

[fairweatherfan]

there are plenty of fair-weather fans on here who think the sky is falling after a single bad game.

You rang?    Actually I've been pleasantly surprised with how little Chicken Little action I've seen after this loss, especially after last year when people were declaring the season over in the first quarter of non-elimination games.

But yeah, Rondo's defense was pretty lousy last game.  About 6-8 of Rose's points came from quick breaks after Rondo layups.  These were not Rondo's fault and should be blamed on the help D.  Almost everything else came from taking Rondo off the dribble or tearing up our pick and roll defense (not entirely on Rondo, but split between him and our bigs).

The worst thing for me was the last few minutes of regulation, where Rose got the ball repeatedly and Rondo either poked at the ball, allowing Rose to go straight by him, or fouled Rose.  Raje needs to learn to play defense with his feet, not his hands in those situations, or the Bulls will continue to exploit the matchup and this will become a very long series.

[bleedinggreen34]

If the problem is Rondo's ankle then he should of been held out games at the end of the season. So what if we fall to the #3 seed. Playing Philly doesn't look that awful right now either. I mentioned Rondo's inability to stay in front of his man in the game thread. That's huge and more important than steals.

If the intention was for Rondo to stay with his man all the way to the hoop, don't you think Doc would tell Rondo or have made that clear at this point?  Have you noticed that Rondo isn't staying in front of his man...but also that - until the Rose explosion yesterday - that man was generally hitting a brick wall and not scoring?

Again, that's [Rondo staying w his man all the way to the hoop] not how this defense is designed.  It's designed to take chances and to funnel penetration to the bigs and keep the guards free from the hoop so they can help on the perimeter.

These players and coaches have been playing and or coaching bball their whole life, please do not Monday Morning QB them on stuff that is plainly obvious.  There is a reason scouts think Rondo's D is money and we have fans on here thinking he's a liability, it's b/c the fans don't know what they're talking about.

So are you an NBA player, scout, or coach? Which one?

I coach basketball and I can tell you that Rondo wasn't "funneling" yesterday. He was getting beat. Rondo's defense can be "money," but it wasn't yesterday. Whether that was do to his ankle I don't know, but his defense was poor (and this is coming from a guy that loves Rondo's game).

Well put, johnnyrondo.

-sw

I don't think it was well put, as a matter of fact it was fairly stand offish. Especially when I'm sure the scouts he was referring to were the one's from Ian Thompson's article a week ago which read:

All-Defensive First Team.

G Rajon Rondo, Boston Celtics
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Kevin Garnett
C Dwight Howard

Rondo was the surprise here. "Off the ball, he takes chances and he's not solid,'' a panelist said. "But I love his ability to get everybody on the team to defend. Garnett has the fanfare, and he deserves it, but when Garnett has been out, you notice that this guy [Rondo] is the guy who goes out to meet the ball. I love the way he gets over the screens, plays the 1 and 2 and at times he has even played Kobe Bryant on defense. When they have to have a major stop, it's Rondo. He sets the tone out front and gets them to be good defensive team.''

KC, I believe that the all defensive first team they were talking about was for the regular season. I doubt scouts would put him on the "All Defensive Playoffs Game 1 First Team". He had a poor game defensively and you need to "bring it" even more in the playoffs. Hopefully he does a better job in gm 2 (unless it's injury related. Then we're in even bigger trouble).

If Rondo was not playing D the way it was designed to be played, don't you think Doc would've done something about it?  The problem was in the front court. 

When they went small on defense with a minute left, Big Baby was in the game, missed a rotation and Rose had a lay-up.  The next defensive set, Perk replaced him.  Rondo rarely left the whole game, no matter what Rose did.  Do the math.  The problem was in the frontcourt D.

I'm usually not this contentious, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If you really think that coaches will yank starters for poor defense, you've obviously never watched the NBA. Did Doc yell at him a bit for it? I'm sure he did. But when everybody else is playing lackluster defense as well, what are you gonna do, yank every player off the court, including the only player that's having a good offensive game?

Your conclusion that you can judge how good a player is playing by when they get subbed is hilarious... seriously, think about what you're saying.

LOL.  Wow.  We're talking about the FINAL MINUTE OF THE GAME when Doc is specifically subbing OFFENSE/DEFENSE.  He first tried out Baby when they went small, Baby didn't rotate in time, Rose scored with ease and he was benched on the next defensive possession for it.

If you don't follow that, then you clearly have never watched, played or been near a basketball court.

Furthermore, do you think Doc is putting Tony Allen in for Ray Allen at the end of the game for the heck of it??  I'm sorry, what you've just written may be the dumbest thing I've ever read, and most ironically, it is preceded by calling my comments the dumbest thing you've ever read. 

We're talking about final minute offense/defense substitutions, and you're trying to tell me that Doc wouldn't consider how well a guy is playing defense when putting a lineup out specifically to defend, for one play??  What the hell are you talking about??

[ForexPirate]

i imagine that playing on 2 sprained ankles will affect your defense just a tad - hats off to the Bulls for taking advantage of our injury bug

[2short]

i imagine that playing on 2 sprained ankles will affect your defense just a tad - hats off to the Bulls for taking advantage of our injury bug

EXACTLY, you can see the last 1/4 of the season rondo didn't have the lateral speed which you need to stay in front of guys.  His side to side speed isn't there which is ankles.  I've played with them, you can be nearly as fast in straight lines but no way can you do it laterally. 
Anyone see KG look good when he came back?  Where did he look the least impressive? defense

[bleedinggreen34]

I'd like to point out that once again the defensive strategy was blatantly obvious (except to Johnny Poker & that other poster) - and it wasn't just Rondo who was cheating towards the perimeter.  It's just the defense.  Ray, Pierce, the 2nd unit front court...the guards just are letting the help pick up the penetration so as not to leave Gordon, Heinrich, Rose unguarded on the perimeter.

[yoursweatersux]

Well I'd like point out that it's now clear Rondo's poor defense wasn't because of bad ankles, defensive designs, or that Rondo's defense was somehow actually good and we're all crazy for thinking it was bad last night (and a lot of the season)

Because in tonight's game, we once again saw what it's like when Rondo really tries hard to play good D. He completely nullified Rose, and cut him off at every angle. THAT'S D. It's all about effort for him... he's got the tools to work with, that's for sure.