Giddens is going to be a good one

[nickagneta]

Statistical productivity in the D-League is completely irrelevant. Completely different game, very low level.

That said, I liked some stuff that Giddens displayed in the games I watched.

Exactly my point, thanks Cor.

[OhioGreen]

Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.

[indeedproceed]

Just how much stock can anyone put into judging how performance in the NBDL translate to talent and how that talent translates into a pro game? Patrick O'Bryant had 17 PPG, 10 RPG and 3.5 Blocks per game in 8 games there in 2008. The guy doesn't belong in the NBA and probably will be playing in Europe before to long. I've heard more than one person rave about how good Giddens has looked in the NBDL but I just can't equate NBDL success with NBA ability.

Kasib Powell, Randy Livingston, Kareem Ried, Marcus Fizer. Do you know who these guys are? They are the last 4 MVPs for the NBDL. Where are they now??

I won't declare Giddens an NBA player just yet but neither will I say he's a failure. We don't know either way and no amount of him throwing up great stats in the D-League is going to change that for me. 

I know Kasib Powell and Randy Livingston are both NBA quality players.

I thin the NBA has a bit of a talent problem with the current way the rosters are set up. Really, my dream is that they go to a minors system not unlike hockey baseball or soccer, in which the vets that have the talent play, the kids that aren't ready don't. That way, teams won't need to hold roster spots for guys like Hilton Armstong, or Saer Sene or Patty Obie. Guys like livingston, mateen cleaves, legit 10th or 12th man options can get actual PT in the NBA. They deserve roster spots, but because clubs have to hold on to guys for what they might be when they're 27 or 28 (realistically), they have to play in teh DL or europe.

[ManUp]

Maybe Giddens "let the game come to him" approach is whats keeping him off the floor.

At practice it would probably lead to him just looking invisible or having no impact.

Doc seems to like players who get into the game and leave an imprint..."aggressive" players.

[nickagneta]

Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.

If this is true then how do you explain the development of Powe, Rondo, and Davis over the last 2-3 years. Most of Rondo's and Powe's development and all of Davis' has come primarily while on a great basketball team. And all of their development is exceptional. Could it just be that some players are inherently more talented and more ready to perform at this level and not just that the more time you are exposed to the pro game the more comfortable and natural your game gets?

I think you either have the talent both physically and mentally or you don't. Most who are in the D-League are there for a reason. Livingston is a prime example. He has definite NBA talent but he was a major headache and immature. He has the physical but not the mental. POB could be the same. He has the physical but he may not have what it takes mentally and in his work ethic and character to be able to do it. I think the D-League provides an opportunity and could produce some good bench type NBA players but my belief is that either you have it or you don't and most of the time that can be seen by the time the player gets drafted and most times before. Way before in most cases.

[johnnyrondo]

One thing to remember about Giddens is that he's 24. He's not some 19 yr old kid. If he was good enough to be a "good one" he should be playing by now. Danny drafted him over some players who might hold better trade value, b/c Danny thought he was the best pick. If he wanted to trade the pick he would of taken Chalmers or Deandre Jordan or someone else. With that said, the fact that this Fall rumors already started to surface that Danny wanted to trade Giddens pretty much shows that the C's are not high on him. I'd love for Giddens to prove people wrong, but just saying its not likely. For salary reasons the top few picks of the second round hold more value than the last pick of the first to most. I think will Giddens will remain with the C's b/c of his guarnateed contract, but that's the only reason. I don't think we could get a second round pick for him right now.

[BillfromBoston]

Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.

If this is true then how do you explain the development of Powe, Rondo, and Davis over the last 2-3 years. Most of Rondo's and Powe's development and all of Davis' has come primarily while on a great basketball team. And all of their development is exceptional. Could it just be that some players are inherently more talented and more ready to perform at this level and not just that the more time you are exposed to the pro game the more comfortable and natural your game gets?

I think you either have the talent both physically and mentally or you don't. Most who are in the D-League are there for a reason. Livingston is a prime example. He has definite NBA talent but he was a major headache and immature. He has the physical but not the mental. POB could be the same. He has the physical but he may not have what it takes mentally and in his work ethic and character to be able to do it. I think the D-League provides an opportunity and could produce some good bench type NBA players but my belief is that either you have it or you don't and most of the time that can be seen by the time the player gets drafted and most times before. Way before in most cases.

Nick - between Rondo, Powe, and Davis only Rondo was given a substantial role to explore his game, which has led to the speed of his development.

1 month ago the debate on Powe and Davis was whether or not they were dime-a-dozen replaceable or worth keeping as backups - bang - injuries hit and both get a chance to play extended minutes out of necessity and start putting up stats that have people thinking potential starter-level talent.

Davis and Powe came into last season with a chance to win a role because their position was very thin. Giddens arrived at TC with Pierce, Allen, TA, House, Pruitt and Walker also looking to grab time at the wing - that's 6 players, 5 of which have more NBA experience - its a completely different situation to Powe and Davis who were looking to only beat out Scalabrine for minutes.

[ManUp]

Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.

If this is true then how do you explain the development of Powe, Rondo, and Davis over the last 2-3 years. Most of Rondo's and Powe's development and all of Davis' has come primarily while on a great basketball team. And all of their development is exceptional. Could it just be that some players are inherently more talented and more ready to perform at this level and not just that the more time you are exposed to the pro game the more comfortable and natural your game gets?

I think you either have the talent both physically and mentally or you don't. Most who are in the D-League are there for a reason. Livingston is a prime example. He has definite NBA talent but he was a major headache and immature. He has the physical but not the mental. POB could be the same. He has the physical but he may not have what it takes mentally and in his work ethic and character to be able to do it. I think the D-League provides an opportunity and could produce some good bench type NBA players but my belief is that either you have it or you don't and most of the time that can be seen by the time the player gets drafted and most times before. Way before in most cases.

Nick - between Rondo, Powe, and Davis only Rondo was given a substantial role to explore his game, which has led to the speed of his development.

1 month ago the debate on Powe and Davis was whether or not they were dime-a-dozen replaceable or worth keeping as backups - bang - injuries hit and both get a chance to play extended minutes out of necessity and start putting up stats that have people thinking potential starter-level talent.

Davis and Powe came into last season with a chance to win a role because their position was very thin. Giddens arrived at TC with Pierce, Allen, TA, House, Pruitt and Walker also looking to grab time at the wing - that's 6 players, 5 of which have more NBA experience - its a completely different situation to Powe and Davis who were looking to only beat out Scalabrine for minutes.

TP, well stated.

[nickagneta]

Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.

If this is true then how do you explain the development of Powe, Rondo, and Davis over the last 2-3 years. Most of Rondo's and Powe's development and all of Davis' has come primarily while on a great basketball team. And all of their development is exceptional. Could it just be that some players are inherently more talented and more ready to perform at this level and not just that the more time you are exposed to the pro game the more comfortable and natural your game gets?

I think you either have the talent both physically and mentally or you don't. Most who are in the D-League are there for a reason. Livingston is a prime example. He has definite NBA talent but he was a major headache and immature. He has the physical but not the mental. POB could be the same. He has the physical but he may not have what it takes mentally and in his work ethic and character to be able to do it. I think the D-League provides an opportunity and could produce some good bench type NBA players but my belief is that either you have it or you don't and most of the time that can be seen by the time the player gets drafted and most times before. Way before in most cases.

Nick - between Rondo, Powe, and Davis only Rondo was given a substantial role to explore his game, which has led to the speed of his development.

1 month ago the debate on Powe and Davis was whether or not they were dime-a-dozen replaceable or worth keeping as backups - bang - injuries hit and both get a chance to play extended minutes out of necessity and start putting up stats that have people thinking potential starter-level talent.

Davis and Powe came into last season with a chance to win a role because their position was very thin. Giddens arrived at TC with Pierce, Allen, TA, House, Pruitt and Walker also looking to grab time at the wing - that's 6 players, 5 of which have more NBA experience - its a completely different situation to Powe and Davis who were looking to only beat out Scalabrine for minutes.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't interpret things like that. I think their development came off the court in practices and that's why they saw the court. And I think even though Powe and Davis have had limited minutes there has been consistent long term growth in their games up to the time that KG went down. Rondo was given the opportunity last year but could just as easily become Sebastian Telfair-like and stagnated for years. They could just as easily been given minutes and become Mikki Moore like and not have performed. Playing time does not equal game growth. Playing time is just a platform to display what was already there.

[Rondo_is_better]

I 5th grade I was tearing up my rec league.... that doesn't mean I was ready for the NBA.

[indeedproceed]

I 5th grade I was tearing up my rec league.... that doesn't mean I was ready for the NBA.

Says who? You got a bright future, son. Money as far as the eye and see and women without ugliness or morals. Sunny days, my friend, sunny days. As long as you sign here....and here...and initial here...and print your name here....

[greg683x]

I want Giddens to be an awesome NBA player like everyone else.  As far as NBDL numbers go, I think it depends on the player.  Some guys numbers translate, some dont.  Guys get to take every shot they want in the NBDL, they have more free reign than they would on an NBA team where Im sure some stunts would land them on the bench quickly.  Every player is different.

Joe Forte looked AWESOME in the NBA summer leagues.  Lenny Cooke has always been a phenom in summer leagues/developmental leagues.  Kedrick Brown always looked great.  Then Al Jefferson, I remember when everyone was disapointed with his performances in the summer league b/c we all expected him to put up 30 and 14, but his numbers always seemed mediocre. 

The positive numbers are encouraging, and theres no harm in being encouraged.  So cautious optomism is the word Id use to describe my reactions toward JR's numbers.

[gar]

People can dis the D league all they want; but a nuymber of teams seem to be benifiting from it. The Spurs would not have been able to survive without Ginobli without help from the D league. Ramon Sessions, James White and a number of other Legit NBA players proven themselves. We ignore the D league at our own peril.

[bucknersrevenge]

Just how much stock can anyone put into judging how performance in the NBDL translate to talent and how that talent translates into a pro game? Patrick O'Bryant had 17 PPG, 10 RPG and 3.5 Blocks per game in 8 games there in 2008. The guy doesn't belong in the NBA and probably will be playing in Europe before to long. I've heard more than one person rave about how good Giddens has looked in the NBDL but I just can't equate NBDL success with NBA ability.

Kasib Powell, Randy Livingston, Kareem Ried, Marcus Fizer. Do you know who these guys are? They are the last 4 MVPs for the NBDL. Where are they now??

I won't declare Giddens an NBA player just yet but neither will I say he's a failure. We don't know either way and no amount of him throwing up great stats in the D-League is going to change that for me. 

Yet if he was averaging just 2 points and a 1 reb in D-League I doubt you'd be saying "who cares about stats??". Fact is, he's doing what he's supposed to do at that level. He's had no shot at the NBA level. But if he stays patient he'll get his turn next year.

I see sometimes on this blog people wanting to bail on this case in favor of everyone's wunderkind Bill Walker but those people are sleeping if they don't think JR won't be able to do something here.

Not only that.  I don't remember too many people on this board having a problem translating Bill Walker's numbers in the Dleague to what he might be able to do in the NBA (even though Giddens was putting up similar numbers at the same time), but now what Giddens does in the Dleague should be dismissed.

Actually in my case, you are both wrong. If you want to go browse through all of posts and search where I ever quoted D-League stats quotes to prove a point, go ahead. I don't even quote NCAA Division I stats to prove a point on a prospect. I just believe absolutely none of those stats relate and translate into an accurate assessment of what is to be expected from a player in the pros.

The  OP obviouslt watched the games and could scout his progress if he has that type of basketball knowledge and ability and copuld give us an assessment of what he viewed as an idea of how well Giddens had been playing. I just don't think using his stats there as proof is a good way of assessing that player. Lots of players that will never sniff a starting NBA rotation put up phenomenal stats in the D-League and in Division I basketball. It doesn't mean the skill set is there.

I think BillfromBoston's post said it best:

"The D-League is highly valued by the NBA as a training ground for young players and a place for slower developers to play against higher level competition."

But what Danny and other talent evaluators are looking at is the players one on one defensive skills, their under the basket footwork, their ability to box out, their recognition of seeing the open man and making that pass, their shooting form, their shooting range, their ability to set the pick, their ability to finish, their reaction times, their basketball knowledge....things of that nature. I seriously doubt if they care what those players stats are. That was my point.

Actually nick, I'd like you to point to the part of that post where I said YOU specifically used stats to prove a point. While my post was in response to what you said, all I said was while I agree D-League stats are much like MLB spring training stats; they don't mean a lot. However if Giddens has been posting POOR numbers in the minors people would be quick to jump all over him. In other words the "D-League stats don't mean much" reasoning would likely be selective. But I never said you quoted stats to prove a point so actually nick YOU are wrong, not me.

[bucknersrevenge]

One thing to remember about Giddens is that he's 24. He's not some 19 yr old kid. If he was good enough to be a "good one" he should be playing by now. Danny drafted him over some players who might hold better trade value, b/c Danny thought he was the best pick. If he wanted to trade the pick he would of taken Chalmers or Deandre Jordan or someone else. With that said, the fact that this Fall rumors already started to surface that Danny wanted to trade Giddens pretty much shows that the C's are not high on him. I'd love for Giddens to prove people wrong, but just saying its not likely. For salary reasons the top few picks of the second round hold more value than the last pick of the first to most. I think will Giddens will remain with the C's b/c of his guarnateed contract, but that's the only reason. I don't think we could get a second round pick for him right now.

Wow...this post makes so little sense it's actually almost scary. So a rookie taken with the last pick in the 1st round should just walk into a championship lockerroom and take minutes from future Hall of Famers Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and established veteran shooting guards Eddie House and Tony Allen??

Not only that but an alledged rumor unconfirmed by neither Doc nor Danny about a possible trade that had no chance of happening is proof that the Celtics don't like him when all they've done is rave about the kid's potential?

Again, this is a championship team 4-5 deep in the swingspot with well established veteran players. There area number of teams in this league Giddens would get run on right now. This just isn't one of them. But we'll see what he does next year. Feel free to take a mulligan on that post.