Author Topic: Giddens is going to be a good one  (Read 9826 times)

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Re: Giddens is going to be a good one
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2009, 03:32:02 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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One thing to remember about Giddens is that he's 24. He's not some 19 yr old kid. If he was good enough to be a "good one" he should be playing by now. Danny drafted him over some players who might hold better trade value, b/c Danny thought he was the best pick. If he wanted to trade the pick he would of taken Chalmers or Deandre Jordan or someone else. With that said, the fact that this Fall rumors already started to surface that Danny wanted to trade Giddens pretty much shows that the C's are not high on him. I'd love for Giddens to prove people wrong, but just saying its not likely. For salary reasons the top few picks of the second round hold more value than the last pick of the first to most. I think will Giddens will remain with the C's b/c of his guarnateed contract, but that's the only reason. I don't think we could get a second round pick for him right now.

Wow...this post makes so little sense it's actually almost scary. So a rookie taken with the last pick in the 1st round should just walk into a championship lockerroom and take minutes from future Hall of Famers Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and established veteran shooting guards Eddie House and Tony Allen??

Not only that but an alledged rumor unconfirmed by neither Doc nor Danny about a possible trade that had no chance of happening is proof that the Celtics don't like him when all they've done is rave about the kid's potential?

Again, this is a championship team 4-5 deep in the swingspot with well established veteran players. There area number of teams in this league Giddens would get run on right now. This just isn't one of them. But we'll see what he does next year. Feel free to take a mulligan on that post.

I'd like to hear about all this "raving."  If there has been any raving, it hasn't worked. No team has bitten. Of course they will deny the rumors. There not going to say, "We picked this kid as a first rounder when everyone had him pegged as a middle second rounder, but we were wrong. He's not that good and he's already 24, so we can't use the extreme youth excuse. Anybody want him?" No that's not how it works. and you don't want the player hearing his name in rumors. So you deny the rumors, say you are pleased with his development, and continue to quietly shop him. Just for fun, post some links from the season (not from the draft), where Doc and Danny are "raving" about Giddens.

Re: Giddens is going to be a good one
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2009, 10:02:56 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Just how much stock can anyone put into judging how performance in the NBDL translate to talent and how that talent translates into a pro game? Patrick O'Bryant had 17 PPG, 10 RPG and 3.5 Blocks per game in 8 games there in 2008. The guy doesn't belong in the NBA and probably will be playing in Europe before to long. I've heard more than one person rave about how good Giddens has looked in the NBDL but I just can't equate NBDL success with NBA ability.

Kasib Powell, Randy Livingston, Kareem Ried, Marcus Fizer. Do you know who these guys are? They are the last 4 MVPs for the NBDL. Where are they now??

I won't declare Giddens an NBA player just yet but neither will I say he's a failure. We don't know either way and no amount of him throwing up great stats in the D-League is going to change that for me. 

Yet if he was averaging just 2 points and a 1 reb in D-League I doubt you'd be saying "who cares about stats??". Fact is, he's doing what he's supposed to do at that level. He's had no shot at the NBA level. But if he stays patient he'll get his turn next year.

I see sometimes on this blog people wanting to bail on this case in favor of everyone's wunderkind Bill Walker but those people are sleeping if they don't think JR won't be able to do something here.

Not only that.  I don't remember too many people on this board having a problem translating Bill Walker's numbers in the Dleague to what he might be able to do in the NBA (even though Giddens was putting up similar numbers at the same time), but now what Giddens does in the Dleague should be dismissed. :-\
Actually in my case, you are both wrong. If you want to go browse through all of posts and search where I ever quoted D-League stats quotes to prove a point, go ahead. I don't even quote NCAA Division I stats to prove a point on a prospect. I just believe absolutely none of those stats relate and translate into an accurate assessment of what is to be expected from a player in the pros.

The  OP obviouslt watched the games and could scout his progress if he has that type of basketball knowledge and ability and copuld give us an assessment of what he viewed as an idea of how well Giddens had been playing. I just don't think using his stats there as proof is a good way of assessing that player. Lots of players that will never sniff a starting NBA rotation put up phenomenal stats in the D-League and in Division I basketball. It doesn't mean the skill set is there.

I think BillfromBoston's post said it best:

"The D-League is highly valued by the NBA as a training ground for young players and a place for slower developers to play against higher level competition."

But what Danny and other talent evaluators are looking at is the players one on one defensive skills, their under the basket footwork, their ability to box out, their recognition of seeing the open man and making that pass, their shooting form, their shooting range, their ability to set the pick, their ability to finish, their reaction times, their basketball knowledge....things of that nature. I seriously doubt if they care what those players stats are. That was my point.

Actually nick, I'd like you to point to the part of that post where I said YOU specifically used stats to prove a point. While my post was in response to what you said, all I said was while I agree D-League stats are much like MLB spring training stats; they don't mean a lot. However if Giddens has been posting POOR numbers in the minors people would be quick to jump all over him. In other words the "D-League stats don't mean much" reasoning would likely be selective. But I never said you quoted stats to prove a point so actually nick YOU are wrong, not me.

Quote
"Yet if he was averaging just 2 points and a 1 reb in D-League I doubt you'd be saying "who cares about stats??"".
That was enough for me to understand that you where saying that I(red highlighted as you in your statement) would use bad stats in the D-League to make my point as to whether someone belongs in the NBA when in fact I would not and don't believe I ever have.

Re: Giddens is going to be a good one
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2009, 12:42:34 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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Basically if a young player has the skills and smarts to play in the NBA their progression nearly always comes down to having a comfort level on the court! I really think this is true at all levels of BB. That's generally why you see young guys on BAD teams progressing faster than young guys on elite teams (such as the C's)! Coach's like Doc can't afford having these guys make mistakes, costing games when trying for a title, whereas the bad teams can let them play through the mistakes and get a quicker, true idea of whether or not they'll cut it some day.
For that reason again, guys in the D-league relax and give a truer indication of what their game might really look like if given the chance to play without worrying about being yanked out of the game with every turnover, missed defensive rotation, or missed shot!
Until guys like JR and Walker truly get those kind of minutes it is really hard to tell how they'll turn out, IMHO.
If this is true then how do you explain the development of Powe, Rondo, and Davis over the last 2-3 years. Most of Rondo's and Powe's development and all of Davis' has come primarily while on a great basketball team. And all of their development is exceptional. Could it just be that some players are inherently more talented and more ready to perform at this level and not just that the more time you are exposed to the pro game the more comfortable and natural your game gets?

I think you either have the talent both physically and mentally or you don't. Most who are in the D-League are there for a reason. Livingston is a prime example. He has definite NBA talent but he was a major headache and immature. He has the physical but not the mental. POB could be the same. He has the physical but he may not have what it takes mentally and in his work ethic and character to be able to do it. I think the D-League provides an opportunity and could produce some good bench type NBA players but my belief is that either you have it or you don't and most of the time that can be seen by the time the player gets drafted and most times before. Way before in most cases.

Nick - between Rondo, Powe, and Davis only Rondo was given a substantial role to explore his game, which has led to the speed of his development.

1 month ago the debate on Powe and Davis was whether or not they were dime-a-dozen replaceable or worth keeping as backups - bang - injuries hit and both get a chance to play extended minutes out of necessity and start putting up stats that have people thinking potential starter-level talent.

Davis and Powe came into last season with a chance to win a role because their position was very thin. Giddens arrived at TC with Pierce, Allen, TA, House, Pruitt and Walker also looking to grab time at the wing - that's 6 players, 5 of which have more NBA experience - its a completely different situation to Powe and Davis who were looking to only beat out Scalabrine for minutes.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't interpret things like that. I think their development came off the court in practices and that's why they saw the court. And I think even though Powe and Davis have had limited minutes there has been consistent long term growth in their games up to the time that KG went down. Rondo was given the opportunity last year but could just as easily become Sebastian Telfair-like and stagnated for years. They could just as easily been given minutes and become Mikki Moore like and not have performed. Playing time does not equal game growth. Playing time is just a platform to display what was already there.

This is a head-scratcher to me - you HAVE to factor in those things if you are going to accurately evaluate the environment a player is developing in.

To not do so is to basically admit to using an inferior methodology with which to make your assessment - its not an optional type deal, its a vital part of the equation.

Look - if you want to argue that Giddens was the least game-ready of the players at his position or that he gave the staff little confidence that he could out-perform the others that's fine - but that is entirely different than assessing his ability to contribute on the court period.

I am fairly certain that Giddens has the skills to play productive minutes and would have growth in efficiency as he was exposed to more and more playing time - the fact that this particular roster did not afford him that opportunity is not synonymous with his inability to play - Doc had other, more proven options and did not have to speculate or take risks - Giddens isn't so good right now that he had to get on the court.

But in time, Giddens has superior skills to every wing on this roster outside the two starters - he's more diverse in skillset than Walker as well - however, his mental preparedness is likely his biggest obstacle thus far. He needs to feel as if he belongs so he can make decisions off instinct.

Re: Giddens is going to be a good one
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2009, 12:48:00 PM »

Offline BillfromBoston

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One thing to remember about Giddens is that he's 24. He's not some 19 yr old kid. If he was good enough to be a "good one" he should be playing by now. Danny drafted him over some players who might hold better trade value, b/c Danny thought he was the best pick. If he wanted to trade the pick he would of taken Chalmers or Deandre Jordan or someone else. With that said, the fact that this Fall rumors already started to surface that Danny wanted to trade Giddens pretty much shows that the C's are not high on him. I'd love for Giddens to prove people wrong, but just saying its not likely. For salary reasons the top few picks of the second round hold more value than the last pick of the first to most. I think will Giddens will remain with the C's b/c of his guarnateed contract, but that's the only reason. I don't think we could get a second round pick for him right now.

Wow...this post makes so little sense it's actually almost scary. So a rookie taken with the last pick in the 1st round should just walk into a championship lockerroom and take minutes from future Hall of Famers Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and established veteran shooting guards Eddie House and Tony Allen??

Not only that but an alledged rumor unconfirmed by neither Doc nor Danny about a possible trade that had no chance of happening is proof that the Celtics don't like him when all they've done is rave about the kid's potential?

Again, this is a championship team 4-5 deep in the swingspot with well established veteran players. There area number of teams in this league Giddens would get run on right now. This just isn't one of them. But we'll see what he does next year. Feel free to take a mulligan on that post.

I'd like to hear about all this "raving."  If there has been any raving, it hasn't worked. No team has bitten. Of course they will deny the rumors. There not going to say, "We picked this kid as a first rounder when everyone had him pegged as a middle second rounder, but we were wrong. He's not that good and he's already 24, so we can't use the extreme youth excuse. Anybody want him?" No that's not how it works. and you don't want the player hearing his name in rumors. So you deny the rumors, say you are pleased with his development, and continue to quietly shop him. Just for fun, post some links from the season (not from the draft), where Doc and Danny are "raving" about Giddens.

The only trade rumor involving Giddens was in direct relation to their desire for a 1st round pick in exchange - considering the team was desperate to open up roster spots and then eventually got rid of POB and Cassell, i think deductive reasoning shows that the team values Giddens.

If they thought they'd "made a mistake" the would have dumped him when the time came to open up spots - they did not. If he was offered for a 1st round pick and they didn't drop the request, that indicates a strong value for the talent,  but a need to address other needs with the roster spot, nothing more...

Re: Giddens is going to be a good one
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2009, 12:19:42 AM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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Just how much stock can anyone put into judging how performance in the NBDL translate to talent and how that talent translates into a pro game? Patrick O'Bryant had 17 PPG, 10 RPG and 3.5 Blocks per game in 8 games there in 2008. The guy doesn't belong in the NBA and probably will be playing in Europe before to long. I've heard more than one person rave about how good Giddens has looked in the NBDL but I just can't equate NBDL success with NBA ability.

Kasib Powell, Randy Livingston, Kareem Ried, Marcus Fizer. Do you know who these guys are? They are the last 4 MVPs for the NBDL. Where are they now??

I won't declare Giddens an NBA player just yet but neither will I say he's a failure. We don't know either way and no amount of him throwing up great stats in the D-League is going to change that for me. 

Yet if he was averaging just 2 points and a 1 reb in D-League I doubt you'd be saying "who cares about stats??". Fact is, he's doing what he's supposed to do at that level. He's had no shot at the NBA level. But if he stays patient he'll get his turn next year.

I see sometimes on this blog people wanting to bail on this case in favor of everyone's wunderkind Bill Walker but those people are sleeping if they don't think JR won't be able to do something here.

Not only that.  I don't remember too many people on this board having a problem translating Bill Walker's numbers in the Dleague to what he might be able to do in the NBA (even though Giddens was putting up similar numbers at the same time), but now what Giddens does in the Dleague should be dismissed. :-\
Actually in my case, you are both wrong. If you want to go browse through all of posts and search where I ever quoted D-League stats quotes to prove a point, go ahead. I don't even quote NCAA Division I stats to prove a point on a prospect. I just believe absolutely none of those stats relate and translate into an accurate assessment of what is to be expected from a player in the pros.

The  OP obviouslt watched the games and could scout his progress if he has that type of basketball knowledge and ability and copuld give us an assessment of what he viewed as an idea of how well Giddens had been playing. I just don't think using his stats there as proof is a good way of assessing that player. Lots of players that will never sniff a starting NBA rotation put up phenomenal stats in the D-League and in Division I basketball. It doesn't mean the skill set is there.

I think BillfromBoston's post said it best:

"The D-League is highly valued by the NBA as a training ground for young players and a place for slower developers to play against higher level competition."

But what Danny and other talent evaluators are looking at is the players one on one defensive skills, their under the basket footwork, their ability to box out, their recognition of seeing the open man and making that pass, their shooting form, their shooting range, their ability to set the pick, their ability to finish, their reaction times, their basketball knowledge....things of that nature. I seriously doubt if they care what those players stats are. That was my point.

Actually nick, I'd like you to point to the part of that post where I said YOU specifically used stats to prove a point. While my post was in response to what you said, all I said was while I agree D-League stats are much like MLB spring training stats; they don't mean a lot. However if Giddens has been posting POOR numbers in the minors people would be quick to jump all over him. In other words the "D-League stats don't mean much" reasoning would likely be selective. But I never said you quoted stats to prove a point so actually nick YOU are wrong, not me.

Quote
"Yet if he was averaging just 2 points and a 1 reb in D-League I doubt you'd be saying "who cares about stats??"".
That was enough for me to understand that you where saying that I(red highlighted as you in your statement) would use bad stats in the D-League to make my point as to whether someone belongs in the NBA when in fact I would not and don't believe I ever have.

Again nick, never once did I state in any post "nick uses D-League stats to determine a player's worth. In NO post did I say you have done that up to now. What I did is argue that some people might give extremely poor stats in the D-League more weight than good stats. Never at any time did I say in any post "I've seen nickagneta just use stats to decide whether a DLeague player was worth anything".
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