Give Walker and/or Giddens some minutes

[BillfromBoston]

although i have been wanting Walker for a while, i'm going to sort of disagree here.

I think Doc really wanted this game to make sure we didn't get into a KG-less losing streak and i do see the value of that. we want to stay the best we can in the hunt for HC advantage. we don't want to just concede that.

I'm gonna hold off until the Clipps game to start calling for more Walker mins because I think we  would like to have a good showing against DEN tomorrow night.

I expect to see a little more Pruitt or Walker tomorrow, but i still think Doc will run a pretty short rotation in that game to - especially if we look to be in any trouble.

Was this game really in doubt when we were up by 20 points or so with six minutes left?  Put in Walker for Pierce, and if the lead gets down to 10 or 12, think about putting Pierce back in.  Don't, however, play Pierce 44 minutes in a fast tempo blowout without at least attempting to spell him.

I feel you to a degree Roy, but I don't think that Utah and Phoenix constitute a trend.

Coming down the stretch I totally believe you've got to keep Pierce and Allen at 33-36 mpg on average and not go to the well too often.

That being said. Boston lost KG in the  middle of the Utah game and they're the 6th best home team record-wise. Phoenix had been trouncing people and made 2 semi-comebacks in that game keeping within striking distance just enough to make it risky.

I will be screaming from the rafters if Doc burns Ray and Paul for 40+ on average over the next 3 weeks, but I don't see it happening. For one, this team communicates too much for that to happen - Paul, Ray, even Danny will say something if Doc gets too tight an **** and can't pull the trigger on a long-term need in favor of short-term results.

I'd fully expect to see Walker and Pruitt at the wings coming up - I do believe that tonight game was about getting a win and establishing confidence in a post-KG situation. Doc erred on the side of caution in terms of securing the win...

There is no way he can play them 40+ on average the rest of the way, so expect to see the young guys get some run soon - clearly the Clips will be a glimpse, but I'd expect that trend to continue once they hit home...then it'll be up to them to keep their spots...

[BillfromBoston]

Paul Pierce's minutes played this month:  41, 37, 45, 43, 40, 43, 44, 45, 44

there's also been a bunch of rest in there and games against key teams like LAL, SAS, NO and DAL....

This month was going to be big minutes for the big 3 given who we were playing regardless of injuries....the injuries just made it worse....

again, i agree in the overall point, but i see the rationale for pushing to get wins over that stretch....

if it continues, then it could be a problem for sure, but i'm just not there quite yet.

hey, i'm big on the we shoulda signed Pose train and he would be perfect for what's going on now.

i wish there were more attractive veteran wings out there to pick up, but i think we will be seeing Walker pretty soon.

Agreed...there has been a TON of time off between games this month, including the All Star break...couple that with the magnitude of opponents and you've got a reasonable excuse to play him heavy minutes...

[Toine43]

I agree with you Roy but we all know that the chances of Giddens getting meaningful minutes this year are 0%. So give Walker some minutes, because Pierce and Allen cannot keep playing as much as they are.

[The Walker Wiggle]

How many rookies picked post-40th pick have got more minutes than Walker? Goran Tragic? Anyone else?

Well, post-40th pick strikes me as a fairly arbitrary line to draw in the sand. Plenty of teams have found rotation players in this season's second round. Mario Chalmers (34th), DeAndre Jordan (35th), Luc Mbah a Moute (37th) and Kyle Weaver (38th). But for argument's sake: Sean Singletary and Mike Taylor (despite a broken right thumb). Can we count undrafted rookies? If so, add Anthony Morrow and Bobby Brown to the list.

[CelticG1]

“I’d like to see us do something,” said Pierce. “I think it would help us. You don’t want to burn out me and Ray (Allen) coming down the stretch to where we’re having to play heavy minutes, especially going into the playoffs.”

Paul gets it.  Why doesn't Doc?

This quote is from Feb 19, prior to the trade deadline. "Do something" quite probably refers to getting a decent backup, not necessarily to playing Walker and Giddens indiscriminately.

It certainly sounds like Pierce was reffering to a trade if you read the articel in the herald... http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/2009_02_19_Celtics_want_to_deal:_But_Danny_Ainge_doesn_t_expect_one/ ..... The whole article talks about the trade deadline and bringin in veterans. The only mention of Giddens or Walker is when is says that danny was in attendance at Giddens  Utah Flash Practice....I think Doc will start giving these guys some more minutes when we are back in our comfortable homecourt. For now I think it is important to win as many games especailly road games as we can. If that means playing paul or ray 5 minutes more a game then we would like to than i think we have to live with it. ...They did just get a decent break during the all star break and they've only played 2 games in one week since the all satr game so i think they will be ok.

[cordobes]

What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

[Roy Hobbs]

“I’d like to see us do something,” said Pierce. “I think it would help us. You don’t want to burn out me and Ray (Allen) coming down the stretch to where we’re having to play heavy minutes, especially going into the playoffs.”

Paul gets it.  Why doesn't Doc?

This quote is from Feb 19, prior to the trade deadline. "Do something" quite probably refers to getting a decent backup, not necessarily to playing Walker and Giddens indiscriminately.

It certainly sounds like Pierce was reffering to a trade if you read the articel in the herald... http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view/2009_02_19_Celtics_want_to_deal:_But_Danny_Ainge_doesn_t_expect_one/ ..... The whole article talks about the trade deadline and bringin in veterans. The only mention of Giddens or Walker is when is says that danny was in attendance at Giddens  Utah Flash Practice....I think Doc will start giving these guys some more minutes when we are back in our comfortable homecourt. For now I think it is important to win as many games especailly road games as we can. If that means playing paul or ray 5 minutes more a game then we would like to than i think we have to live with it. ...They did just get a decent break during the all star break and they've only played 2 games in one week since the all satr game so i think they will be ok.

I don't see the distinction.  If Pierce is saying he's worried about burning out, does it matter if the guy giving him a breather comes from on or off the team?  The thing that matters is that Pierce is concerned about continually playing heavy minutes.  We're most likely not going to sign another wing, so the help Pierce is asking for has to come from on the team.

[Roy Hobbs]

What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

Again, what's the other option?  There should be a more experienced backup wing on this roster; there isn't.  That being the case, the rookies need to get some run, or else Pierce is going to be dead.

What game are you referring to when you say that Walker didn't look good in meaningful minutes?  Also, as mentioned, most rookies aren't going to look good immediately -- that's the reason he needs to get minutes, like other teams have done with their rookies.  I can see why Doc limited Walker's minutes when TA was playing, although I disagreed with it.  Now, though, there's no excuse.

[CoachBo]

Again, having seen Walker's college career up close, the one thing he'll do is at least play with a moderate degree of basketball intelligence. On that alone - which is an improvement over Tony - he has to get minutes right now.

It is indeed true that management has totally spit the bit at the wing position. They spit it this summer, and they spit it last week.

But we can't change that now. Someone's got to cut down Pierce's minutes. That someone should be Walker, IMHO. Let's take a look and see if we don't find out we can live without Tony Allen - forever.

[Snakehead]

Doc needs to take it easy on Pierce over this stretch.  There's obviously a need for Pierce's talents but if you can play most of the game's offense through the Ray and Rondo combo and have him only take on the offense if he needs to, I don't see why you can't have Walker pick up some of those minutes.  It will pay off in the long run and I hope he at least gives it a try.

With some of this uncertainty around the buyouts it'd be great to see Walker get some minutes and hopefully show some improvement and contribute to the team.

[xmuscularghandix]

I agree with you Roy but we all know that the chances of Giddens getting meaningful minutes this year are 0%. So give Walker some minutes, because Pierce and Allen cannot keep playing as much as they are.

Danny and Doc have spoken that JR's defense is up to the NBA caliber, so i wouldn't say zero. i'd expect that as we get closer to the playoffs we'll see them inserted at different times. Walker for his offense and aggressiveness running the floor, and Giddens for his rebounding and defense (he has a nice shot too but still seems to be too tentative.)

[BudweiserCeltic]

My only real knock on Doc is his reluctance to play the rookies. Even if we lose games because of it (though there's no reason to believe that this would be the case). On the court experience is very valuable. If someone doesn't pan out, he doesn't pan out... but he needs some consistant playing time, as little as it may be.

[BillfromBoston]

What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

The problem with this logic is that Walker is already on the team, so all the agenda-driven posters that want to vilify Ainge for not signing Posey or some other marginal veteran wing, don't WANT him to be the answer - has nothing to do with his potential to fill that role.

Walker is capable of playing a role of backup on this team, but Doc has just recently gotten to a point where roster depth may necessitate it. I expect we'll be seeing him very soon and he won't leave the rotation after that.

People are making a major issue out of the minutes, but Pierce and Allen have been consistently effective all season with no signs of fatigue or slow down - Pierce has actually gotten better each month.

With the amount of time the team has had off recently its ok to extend the minutes a bit, because the aggregate rest time within the month is actually HIGHER than in past months where there were less minutes being played, but more games and travel.

I guarantee that Doc will start using Gabe and Walker more - he's not that foolish...if his mind wants KG healthy for the playoffs he's not going to burn out Pierce and Allen waiting for it...he's talked about limiting minutes all year, he's not going to screw that up now.

Also, you can expect Pierce and Allen to play 40+ minute SOMETIMES, against high caliber opponents or in key games like tonight and in Utah, it makes sense...

...give it another week...

[BillfromBoston]

What makes you believe that Walker will be able to contribute in the play-offs? Because you liked him before the drafted and believed he'd be able to contribute right away? Well, perhaps he wasn't really as ready as you and many believed.

Walker has looked pretty good in very limited minutes.  That doesn't mean much, but when you take that performance in conjunction with the fact that 1) he was a solid performer in college, 2) he was excellent in the D-League 3) he has tremendous, NBA-level athleticism and aggressiveness, and 4) he is our only option at SF other than Scal, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he should at least be tried out for spot minutes on a nightly basis.

None of the other rookies playing for contenders looked tremendous right away, either.  However, most of them are filling a role adequately now, though.  There's no doubt in my mind that Walker could fill a role for five minutes a night, and Danny Ainge has recently expressed the exact same thought.

You yourself have expressed the need for a backup wing.  It appears very likely that the team will commit its two open roster spots to a big man and to a point guard.  That means we're still going to have a hole on the roster, that won't be filled externally.  The options, then, are to ignore it, or to try to fill it from within.  While the latter may not be the ideal option, it's the only one we really have.  Either Walker or Giddens is going to need to step up, and to do that, they need to play.

All right, but I already knew you're in favour of force-feeding Walker with minutes, even if that costs the team wins and possibly HCA.

But that doesn't explain what makes you believe he's going to be a contributor in the playoffs. He's going to be ready by playing 5 minutes per game during 2 months? I mean, it's a possibility, but certainly very risky. And he certainly didn't look good in the last meaningful minutes he got .

I don't see how its more "risky" than giving Powe and Davis major minutes last year despite limited experience and 2nd round status...how about Rondo and Perkins being STARTERS on a championship-driven team?

Until I see Walker fail in an opportunity provided for him, I think there is plenty of precedent on this team and playoff teams around the league to justify PT.

Walker is a first round talent who has shown maturity and poise beyond his years thus far - Its certainly not going to cost this team games putting him into the first half and seeing how it goes - if its an unmitigated disaster, than they can take him out whenever they want.

[BillfromBoston]

Again, having seen Walker's college career up close, the one thing he'll do is at least play with a moderate degree of basketball intelligence. On that alone - which is an improvement over Tony - he has to get minutes right now.

It is indeed true that management has totally spit the bit at the wing position. They spit it this summer, and they spit it last week.

But we can't change that now. Someone's got to cut down Pierce's minutes. That someone should be Walker, IMHO. Let's take a look and see if we don't find out we can live without Tony Allen - forever.

This isn't "indeed true" it is "indeed opinion" that ignores a great many factors:

- Available veteran wings
- cost per year
- number of years
- opportunity cost of signing (who is left off the roster)
- minutes and production of player

What is true is that Pierce and Allen have played relatively the same amount of minutes that they did last year and when you look the situation month-by-month they've both gotten plenty or rest when this CURRENT roster has been healthy - Scalabrine, Tony Allen, and Eddie House have provided the team effective minutes that have kept Pierce and Allen below 36 mpg consistently.

Stars on all teams will play heavier minutes on average in big games against top competition and that's happened. Doc has also clearly been more liberal with their minutes this month - which is justified by the light schedule.

At this point in the season there are a few truths:

- This team is 45-12 and on pace for 60+ wins
- Cleveland, Orlando, and LAL are all also on pace for 60+ wins
- The NBA hasn't had 4 60+ win teams in years

The Celtics defense has been excellent this year, the stars minutes have been well managed, and the team is enjoying an excellent season offensively as well. Its seen its starting 5 grow and dramatically improve as a unit and has gotten plus production from 4 of its bench players.

The team is now on the verge of adding a taller veteran big man and a veteran PG to the roster, per everyone's acknowledged need - including Ainge since the beginning of the season, where he said those would be areas to monitor throughout the course of the year.

Now the team has some injuries and we've been discussing CURRENT minutes usage of Pierce and Allen. But I fail to see how this has been a year-long problem given the level of success this team has had and its ability to NOT over-extend their starters to do so.

Unless you are hell-bent on THEORIZING that this team absolutely needs a "long 3" for defensive purposes to ensure victory over Cleveland, I don't see much point belaboring the lack of a veteran 3. IMO Bill Walker can help fill this role with help from Brian Scalabrine and Ray Allen.

Ray has been FANTASTIC at the 3 this year - essentially being Pierce's back up. This has allowed TA and House to take the extra minutes at the 2 in order to keep Ray's minutes under control.

Going through the game-log, Ray and Paul have gotten plenty of rest throughout this year and their heavy minutes have come at intelligent times - nobody is being burned out, and that is consistent with their level of play this late in the year.

Once the team adds their long vet 4/5 and their vet PG they'll have completed their roster, just as I expected them to do - by using the trade deadline and the waiver process to pick up players of an EQUAL or HIGHER caliber than what was on the FA market last summer...clearly it has not hurt the teams record to do so, and in any normal year a 45-12 record would likely have a 3-4 game cushion saddled to it.

This team is in perfect position for the playoffs and should have a rested and veteran-laden team come first round...