Danny Messed up the Giddens pick

[crownsy]

or he could have just traded JR for Walker instead of cash, then we would have had an open roster spot in the offseason.

i still think that JR is gonna develop into a nice smart player, its a beautiful thing the way he goes in with the bigs and gets offensive rebounds.

or we could have not signed the fossil to steal a roster spot we then traded to sacremento. I know they love same as a potential coach, but what a waste of a bench seat.

[Brickowski]

Well he may be a bust, but what were the alternatives?  When you are picking at #30, its all a crap shoot, and you just want to make sure that you don't miss a hidden gem who gets taken later.  There were no such hidden gems in the 2008 draft, with the possible exception of Bill Walker, and even he has a long way to go before he is an NBA rotation player.

[crownsy]

Giddens looks a solid pick. Too early to write him off.

based on what? his play in the d-league? he hasn't played a minute and it was clear during training camp he was lost.

i simply don't understand why it's so hard for folks to admit that giddens was not a great pick as a player or an asset. even if you want to claim he and chalmers or jordan are equal prospects, the other two play desirable positions.

take charlotte for example. yes, they've been trying to address their size problems. but don't try to tell me that larry brown would rather have giddens over a legit PG or an athletic 7 footer for raja bell. what's the upside of giddens? maybe raja bell? you see my point. teams build with point gaurds and bigs and go from there.

if danny's been trying to trade giddens all along, he would have been better off trying to trade a point or a big. period.

and i dont understand how some people have flagged him as bust simply because he didn't have the skills as a 30th freaking pick to crack a championship teams rotation in the first 5 months of his nba career. both eval's are based on pure fantasy and conjecture.

p.s chalmers, if we had picked him, would be in the D-league as well. Our coach does NOT play young players meanigful minutes before he sees them in practice for an extended time, period.


p.p.s- conisidering the only one saying that danny is trying to unload JR is woj, who has been smashed by not only the celtics, but the reported trade partners on his last 4 "scoops" I take that one with a pretty big grain of salt.

i'm sorry but this is overkill. do any young players currently play for the Celtics? Chalmers plays on a legitimate team, not a lottery team. just as you talk about conjecture, you better recognize your own. now that sam cassell is gone, everyone on the Cs has played in a game but giddens.

your point is?

walker has played zero rotation minutes. POB has played zero rotation minutes. Gabe has ONLY played rotation minutes when TA is out so house has to back up the 2 instead of the point.

and if you seriously want to tell me that you thought coming in miami would be anything but the 7th or 8th team, congrats, you called thier return to mid pack while the rest of the NBA world missed it.

I will bet you ANY amount of money, chalmers does not crack the rotation here barring injury, the same as pruitt, JR, and walker.

[winsomme]

I think there is something to the point being made here and IMO it really has nothing to do with whether JR is a bust or not....

(for the record I actually like the pick in terms of what he could actually turn into as a player)

but the separate point is that we are trying to repeat as Champs, so it does seem like when you are going to tie up 4 roster spots in players that really shouldn't be counted on to play in that TItle-defense season, you do have to at the very least be thinking about the value of those players in that season.....

In that respect, JR was a lower value because he was not looked at as a guy that would be picked in the first round and wasn't really going to have the chance to prove otherwise to other teams in any potential deal that he might be part of...

that said, who would have been the commodity pick at that spot? The only one that i can really see that could have value right now is DeAndre Jordan. Chalmers, maybe, but do we see the value in him based on getting starter minutes or would people still see the value in him if he was buried on our bench.

I could still see some team taking a flier on Jordan based on if nothing else him being a big with upside...

[BillfromBoston]

First of all, he is trying to trade the last pick in the first round for a future first rounder.  I am not surprised no one is biting.

Secondly, I don't think its a slam dunk that Chalmers, or anyone else would have more value at this point.  While Chalmers has been decent in Miami, I have a feeling he wouldn't have cracked the rotation here....and I am not convinced he is a better player than Pruitt.  And CDR...well, he just isn't very good either.  

Exactly...

I find it interesting how conveniently people change what's stated subtly and think nothing of it...

Trying to trade a player who hasn't played this season for a first round pick is always going to be difficult - attempting to trade him for a first round pick also shows a solid valuation of his potential on Ainge's part, so the notion that he is trying to "dump" him runs counter to the asking price and the likelihood of receiving that value compensation.

Addtionally, just because Giddens wasn't a first rounder on mock draft boards, (he was actually the 30th projected pick for weeks on DX.) Doesn't mean that actual teams didn't have him there - I know for a fact that several teams had him projected in the late first...however, as in many drafts, there were some free-falling players - Batum, Arthur, Greene - as well as some suprise "reach" picks like Hill - which changes the tenure of the lottery considerably.

Finally - you must be psychic to state flat-out that Giddens was a "mistake" pick. While he may or may not have fulfilled Ainge's expectations for his rookie year, he was drafted at a time when the team didn't have Posey, House, or TA under contract - the very nature of his projected opportunity changed dramatically post-draft.

I'll reserve judgement until I see what Giddens becomes in this league - but not getting PT on this Celtics team doesn't make me consider him a mistake - though Cordobes will no doubt chime in with his enormous support for Luc Richard Mbah Moute...

Bottom line - I love Giddens all-around game and two-way ability and I'm willing to wait and see what type of player he becomes relative to who was drafted after him before I deem him a mistake pick -- this team has clearly tried to free up a roster spot to acquire a vet - the fact that they traded Cassell for nothing when they could have given away Giddens the same way tells me a great deal about just how much the team values Giddens relative to their need for a roster spot...

[ssspence]

Giddens looks a solid pick. Too early to write him off.

based on what? his play in the d-league? he hasn't played a minute and it was clear during training camp he was lost.

i simply don't understand why it's so hard for folks to admit that giddens was not a great pick as a player or an asset. even if you want to claim he and chalmers or jordan are equal prospects, the other two play desirable positions.

take charlotte for example. yes, they've been trying to address their size problems. but don't try to tell me that larry brown would rather have giddens over a legit PG or an athletic 7 footer for raja bell. what's the upside of giddens? maybe raja bell? you see my point. teams build with point gaurds and bigs and go from there.

if danny's been trying to trade giddens all along, he would have been better off trying to trade a point or a big. period.

and i dont understand how some people have flagged him as bust simply because he didn't have the skills as a 30th freaking pick to crack a championship teams rotation in the first 5 months of his nba career. both eval's are based on pure fantasy and conjecture.

p.s chalmers, if we had picked him, would be in the D-league as well. Our coach does NOT play young players meanigful minutes before he sees them in practice for an extended time, period.


p.p.s- conisidering the only one saying that danny is trying to unload JR is woj, who has been smashed by not only the celtics, but the reported trade partners on his last 4 "scoops" I take that one with a pretty big grain of salt.

i'm sorry but this is overkill. do any young players currently play for the Celtics? Chalmers plays on a legitimate team, not a lottery team. just as you talk about conjecture, you better recognize your own. now that sam cassell is gone, everyone on the Cs has played in a game but giddens.

your point is?

walker has played zero rotation minutes. POB has played zero rotation minutes. Gabe has ONLY played rotation minutes when TA is out so house has to back up the 2 instead of the point.

and if you seriously want to tell me that you thought coming in miami would be anything but the 7th or 8th team, congrats, you called thier return to mid pack while the rest of the NBA world missed it.

I will bet you ANY amount of money, chalmers does not crack the rotation here barring injury, the same as pruitt, JR, and walker.

leaving your incredibly strong arguement about rotations backed my money aside, you're making my point for me - the value of the asset considering he's likely to have very little to no playing time. giddens is worthless. Semih Erden likely has just as much value as Giddens. Walker clearly has more and was taken 17 picks later. Chalmers has more. Jordan has more. the Frenchie on the Bucks has more. what have you....

[winsomme]

First of all, he is trying to trade the last pick in the first round for a future first rounder.  I am not surprised no one is biting.

Secondly, I don't think its a slam dunk that Chalmers, or anyone else would have more value at this point.  While Chalmers has been decent in Miami, I have a feeling he wouldn't have cracked the rotation here....and I am not convinced he is a better player than Pruitt.  And CDR...well, he just isn't very good either.  

Exactly...

I find it interesting how conveniently people change what's stated subtly and think nothing of it...

Trying to trade a player who hasn't played this season for a first round pick is always going to be difficult - attempting to trade him for a first round pick also shows a solid valuation of his potential on Ainge's part, so the notion that he is trying to "dump" him runs counter to the asking price and the likelihood of receiving that value compensation.

Addtionally, just because Giddens wasn't a first rounder on mock draft boards, (he was actually the 30th projected pick for weeks on DX.) Doesn't mean that actual teams didn't have him there - I know for a fact that several teams had him projected in the late first...however, as in many drafts, there were some free-falling players - Batum, Arthur, Greene - as well as some suprise "reach" picks like Hill - which changes the tenure of the lottery considerably.

Finally - you must be psychic to state flat-out that Giddens was a "mistake" pick. While he may or may not have fulfilled Ainge's expectations for his rookie year, he was drafted at a time when the team didn't have Posey, House, or TA under contract - the very nature of his projected opportunity changed dramatically post-draft.

I'll reserve judgement until I see what Giddens becomes in this league - but not getting PT on this Celtics team doesn't make me consider him a mistake - though Cordobes will no doubt chime in with his enormous support for Luc Richard Mbah Moute...

Bottom line - I love Giddens all-around game and two-way ability and I'm willing to wait and see what type of player he becomes relative to who was drafted after him before I deem him a mistake pick -- this team has clearly tried to free up a roster spot to acquire a vet - the fact that they traded Cassell for nothing when they could have given away Giddens the same way tells me a great deal about just how much the team values Giddens relative to their need for a roster spot...

but they were still trying to move him for a pick, so they must at least on some level see the value of roster spots to add to the bench for the playoffs...

and don't you think that using 4 roster spots is a lot for players that has a small chance of being contributors in a Title defense season?

and don't you think that a player like Jordan would have been more intriguing to other teams amongst players that would most likely not gotten PT had we picked them...

[winsomme]

Giddens looks a solid pick. Too early to write him off.

based on what? his play in the d-league? he hasn't played a minute and it was clear during training camp he was lost.

i simply don't understand why it's so hard for folks to admit that giddens was not a great pick as a player or an asset. even if you want to claim he and chalmers or jordan are equal prospects, the other two play desirable positions.

take charlotte for example. yes, they've been trying to address their size problems. but don't try to tell me that larry brown would rather have giddens over a legit PG or an athletic 7 footer for raja bell. what's the upside of giddens? maybe raja bell? you see my point. teams build with point gaurds and bigs and go from there.

if danny's been trying to trade giddens all along, he would have been better off trying to trade a point or a big. period.

and i dont understand how some people have flagged him as bust simply because he didn't have the skills as a 30th freaking pick to crack a championship teams rotation in the first 5 months of his nba career. both eval's are based on pure fantasy and conjecture.

p.s chalmers, if we had picked him, would be in the D-league as well. Our coach does NOT play young players meanigful minutes before he sees them in practice for an extended time, period.


p.p.s- conisidering the only one saying that danny is trying to unload JR is woj, who has been smashed by not only the celtics, but the reported trade partners on his last 4 "scoops" I take that one with a pretty big grain of salt.

i'm sorry but this is overkill. do any young players currently play for the Celtics? Chalmers plays on a legitimate team, not a lottery team. just as you talk about conjecture, you better recognize your own. now that sam cassell is gone, everyone on the Cs has played in a game but giddens.

your point is?

walker has played zero rotation minutes. POB has played zero rotation minutes. Gabe has ONLY played rotation minutes when TA is out so house has to back up the 2 instead of the point.

and if you seriously want to tell me that you thought coming in miami would be anything but the 7th or 8th team, congrats, you called thier return to mid pack while the rest of the NBA world missed it.

I will bet you ANY amount of money, chalmers does not crack the rotation here barring injury, the same as pruitt, JR, and walker.

leaving your incredibly strong arguement about rotations backed my money aside, you're making my point for me - the value of the asset considering he's likely to have very little to no playing time. giddens is worthless. Semih Erden likely has just as much value as Giddens. Walker clearly has more and was taken 17 picks later. Chalmers has more. Jordan has more. the Frenchie on the Bucks has more. what have you....

i agree basically with what you are saying spence, but i disagree with the amount or worth other picks would have had we chosen them....

like everybody agrees, almost nobody that we picked at #30 would have gotten the PT to have become a hot commodity....

so the question then becomes which players had we chosen them would have value based on their "intrigue factor" or at the very least NBDL play...

JR played well in the NBDL, so it's not like he decreased his value any and may have increased it....

again the only player that i could see having a higher "intrigue factor" is DeAndre Jordan... maybe Chalmers, but it's hard to separate out his play in Miami (which he surely would not have gotten here had we picked him)

[BillfromBoston]

...in short, no...

POB was Ainge's project big - one with FAR, FAR superior offensive abilities and with two years in the league to boot...Jordan free-fell for a reason, he is raw in the extreme and is not capable of contributing on both ends of the floor - Ainge paid end-of-round money for POB, who is essentially the same thing as Jordan in terms of commodity...

Furthermore, i do believe that 4 spots is a lot to relinquish on a roster, but you cannot change the order of operations to fit the argument - Giddens and Walker represented not only upside potential but REAL roster depth at a time where all the bench wings were in flux - Giddens had experience and was projected to be able to pick up minutes and would have if TA and House had bolted - JR Would have split time with Pruitt until one or both carved out a niche...

Finally, the "lost in TC" stuff is over-stated - we have no substantial info beyond some very vague statements - this is not enough to build a foundation argument on...What did Giddens have trouble with? How far away was he from learning it? What did he do well?

Taking general 3rd party statements and extrapolating is spurious at best. Giddens could have very well played his way into a rhythm and become a valuable contributor to this team - we know he has the skills and he certainly has taken advantage of his minutes in the D-League....I will always argue against establishing an argument against a player and not allowing for development/progress - player evaluation is a constant process for at least the first 5 years of a career.

Even players that go to Europe come back NBA rotation players at times - development is a tricky thing to quantify...

...and Ainge didn't draft Giddens to be a trade commodity, he drafted him because of his upside potential and to secure a low-cost roster spot at an area of need...Chalmers and Jordan aren't good enough to justify taking them just for their talent - especially not when the team had better depth at their positions...

[Cman]

For at least a year after Rondo was picked, people bemoaned the lost opportunity of picking Marcus Williams instead.

im embarrassed to admit being one of the aforementioned posters 

i saw the light though and now he is one of my fav players

TP for your admission! 
I also wasn't sold on Rondo... but there is a reason Ainge is GM, and not me...

[ssspence]

...in short, no...

POB was Ainge's project big - one with FAR, FAR superior offensive abilities and with two years in the league to boot...Jordan free-fell for a reason, he is raw in the extreme and is not capable of contributing on both ends of the floor - Ainge paid end-of-round money for POB, who is essentially the same thing as Jordan in terms of commodity...

Furthermore, i do believe that 4 spots is a lot to relinquish on a roster, but you cannot change the order of operations to fit the argument - Giddens and Walker represented not only upside potential but REAL roster depth at a time where all the bench wings were in flux - Giddens had experience and was projected to be able to pick up minutes and would have if TA and House had bolted - JR Would have split time with Pruitt until one or both carved out a niche...

Finally, the "lost in TC" stuff is over-stated - we have no substantial info beyond some very vague statements - this is not enough to build a foundation argument on...What did Giddens have trouble with? How far away was he from learning it? What did he do well?

Taking general 3rd party statements and extrapolating is spurious at best. Giddens could have very well played his way into a rhythm and become a valuable contributor to this team - we know he has the skills and he certainly has taken advantage of his minutes in the D-League....I will always argue against establishing an argument against a player and not allowing for development/progress - player evaluation is a constant process for at least the first 5 years of a career.

Even players that go to Europe come back NBA rotation players at times - development is a tricky thing to quantify...

...and Ainge didn't draft Giddens to be a trade commodity, he drafted him because of his upside potential and to secure a low-cost roster spot at an area of need...Chalmers and Jordan aren't good enough to justify taking them just for their talent - especially not when the team had better depth at their positions...

spare me the CAPS please. Calling O'Bryant far superior to anyone is pretty out there. Jordan had 20 rebounds in a game this year. Speculate all you want. POB will never do so.  

[cordobes]

If Chalmers was Ainge's pick, he'd be a future HoFer by now accordingly to BillfromBoston and Brickowski. 

[jdpapa3]

If Chalmers was Ainge's pick, he'd be a future HoFer by now accordingly to BillfromBoston and Brickowski. 

Pruitt is better than Chalmers. Now and forever.

[Brickowski]

You must have me confused with someone else.

[BballTim]

  Frankly, I'm absolutely shocked that people can find better picks than who was chosen at #30 6-8 months after the draft. I doubt that such a thing has happened in the history of the league.