Hornets Regret Signing Posey Already?

[LarBrd33]

Posey is a great piece.  He's not worth 4 years 25 mil, though... and a 35 year old James Posey isn't worth 7 million in 2011.   We'll need that cap room to sign Kevin Durant.   

Danny made the right call. 

[greenwise]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

[BballTim]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

[Bankshot]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

[winsomme]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

[BballTim]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

  What doesn't make sense is complaining about strawman arguments all day and then coming up with a statement like that.

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

  Considering that he was 7 and 4 and 38% from 3 for us when he was 31 that might be a bit optimistic.

[winsomme]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

  What doesn't make sense is complaining about strawman arguments all day and then coming up with a statement like that.

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

  Considering that he was 7 and 4 and 38% from 3 for us when he was 31 that might be a bit optimistic.

and what are his stats this year?

plus, what exactly is the strawman here? aren't you claiming there is going to be enough of a drop off in his game in years 3 and 4 that he would no longer be worth the money and then kill our ability to go after other FAs?

why can't we look at Posey's contract in 2011 the way that we look at Wally's now?

[Bankshot]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

  What doesn't make sense is complaining about strawman arguments all day and then coming up with a statement like that.

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

  Considering that he was 7 and 4 and 38% from 3 for us when he was 31 that might be a bit optimistic.

and what are his stats this year?

plus, what exactly is the strawman here? aren't you claiming there is going to be enough of a drop off in his game in years 3 and 4 that he would no longer be worth the money?

KG probably won't be worth his contract in its last year either.  Same with most of the older max contract guys.

[winsomme]

i just also want to reiterate that the Cs are under the luxury cap for 2010 and 2011. So, the salaries that are doubled are the ones added between now and then.

Posey's salary is not the one that would be doubled. You can't just decide which salary you want to double. it has to be the one that actually takes you over the cap when it is signed.

if you want to argue that Pose's numbers will drop significantly and won't be worth the 6-7 mil then fine, but this idea that we will be paying Pose 12-14mil is just not fair.

[BballTim]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

  What doesn't make sense is complaining about strawman arguments all day and then coming up with a statement like that.

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

  Considering that he was 7 and 4 and 38% from 3 for us when he was 31 that might be a bit optimistic.

and what are his stats this year?

plus, what exactly is the strawman here? aren't you claiming there is going to be enough of a drop off in his game in years 3 and 4 that he would no longer be worth the money and then kill our ability to go after other FAs?

why can't we look at Posey's contract in 2011 the way that we look at Wally's now?

  His stats are better (although they've dropped off the last 6 weeks or so) because he's playing more minutes and he's a bigger part of the offense for NO.

  The strawman was that Posey's contract would paralyze our salary cap. Kind of an overstatement.

  Wally's contract expires this year. Posey will still have another year in 2011. That's the difference.

[BballTim]

i just also want to reiterate that the Cs are under the luxury cap for 2010 and 2011. So, the salaries that are doubled are the ones added between now and then.

Posey's salary is not the one that would be doubled. You can't just decide which salary you want to double. it has to be the one that actually takes you over the cap when it is signed.

if you want to argue that Pose's numbers will drop significantly and won't be worth the 6-7 mil then fine, but this idea that we will be paying Pose 12-14mil is just not fair.

  First of all, you do understand that our 2011 salary number is only for Paul Perk and KG and that our 2012 number is for KG only, right? It's pointless to claim that we're under the tax when we're clearly 12-14 player shy of a full roster in those years.

  And while claiming Posey's number shouldn't be doubled because of when he was signed helps your argument it doesn't mean anything in the real world. The team has core players and extraneous players. Of the non-core players they have small contract guys and larger contract guys. Unless you cut players from your core or downgrade your core talent to save money the only real place you can save money is the non-core players with larger contracts.

  How should Ainge phrase this to Wyc? We want Posey, but we have to give him 4 years instead of the 2 years we think he'll be worth the money. We're over the luxury threshold now and we will be for all four years but you shouldn't think of Posey as costing you double, you should think that Paul and Rajon's contracts count towards all that extra money because they haven't actually signed the extensions that we've budgeted or them yet.
 
  I'm an Ainge supporter by I'd fire him on the spot if he made a pitch like that.

[LarBrd33]

i just also want to reiterate that the Cs are under the luxury cap for 2010 and 2011. So, the salaries that are doubled are the ones added between now and then.

Posey's salary is not the one that would be doubled. You can't just decide which salary you want to double. it has to be the one that actually takes you over the cap when it is signed.

if you want to argue that Pose's numbers will drop significantly and won't be worth the 6-7 mil then fine, but this idea that we will be paying Pose 12-14mil is just not fair.

  First of all, you do understand that our 2011 salary number is only for Paul Perk and KG and that our 2012 number is for KG only, right? It's pointless to claim that we're under the tax when we're clearly 12-14 player shy of a full roster in those years.

  And while claiming Posey's number shouldn't be doubled because of when he was signed helps your argument it doesn't mean anything in the real world. The team has core players and extraneous players. Of the non-core players they have small contract guys and larger contract guys. Unless you cut players from your core or downgrade your core talent to save money the only real place you can save money is the non-core players with larger contracts.

  How should Ainge phrase this to Wyc? We want Posey, but we have to give him 4 years instead of the 2 years we think he'll be worth the money. We're over the luxury threshold now and we will be for all four years but you shouldn't think of Posey as costing you double, you should think that Paul and Rajon's contracts count towards all that extra money because they haven't actually signed the extensions that we've budgeted or them yet.
 
  I'm an Ainge supporter by I'd fire him on the spot if he made a pitch like that.

in 2011/12 we will have KG under contract for 21 mil.   By then both Paul and Ray's contracts will have expired and I don't expect either will be getting the 20-mil-a-year contracts they are currently on.   Paul will be 34 and Ray will be 36. 

I have no idea what their next contracts will be, but I am positive they will not be making that kind of money.  Maybe 10 mil a year each?

Maybe Rondo ends up making 10 mil a year on his next contract?

Maybe Perk ends up making like 6-7 mil a year?

That's 57 mil right there. 

You add in other contracts for rookies and role players and such... another 12 mil or so... you got 69 mil...

The salary cap this year was 59 mil.  You're already over the cap by 10 mil.  I don't think they want to be paying Posey 7 million at that point.  He's good, but not worth it.  Plus... the luxury cap level this year was 71 mil.  So if Posey pushed us 5 mil over the luxury level... they are shelling out like 12 mil to have the luxury of an old Posey.

There goes my dream of signing Durant.

[BballTim]

i just also want to reiterate that the Cs are under the luxury cap for 2010 and 2011. So, the salaries that are doubled are the ones added between now and then.

Posey's salary is not the one that would be doubled. You can't just decide which salary you want to double. it has to be the one that actually takes you over the cap when it is signed.

if you want to argue that Pose's numbers will drop significantly and won't be worth the 6-7 mil then fine, but this idea that we will be paying Pose 12-14mil is just not fair.

  First of all, you do understand that our 2011 salary number is only for Paul Perk and KG and that our 2012 number is for KG only, right? It's pointless to claim that we're under the tax when we're clearly 12-14 player shy of a full roster in those years.

  And while claiming Posey's number shouldn't be doubled because of when he was signed helps your argument it doesn't mean anything in the real world. The team has core players and extraneous players. Of the non-core players they have small contract guys and larger contract guys. Unless you cut players from your core or downgrade your core talent to save money the only real place you can save money is the non-core players with larger contracts.

  How should Ainge phrase this to Wyc? We want Posey, but we have to give him 4 years instead of the 2 years we think he'll be worth the money. We're over the luxury threshold now and we will be for all four years but you shouldn't think of Posey as costing you double, you should think that Paul and Rajon's contracts count towards all that extra money because they haven't actually signed the extensions that we've budgeted or them yet.
 
  I'm an Ainge supporter by I'd fire him on the spot if he made a pitch like that.

in 2011/12 we will have KG under contract for 21 mil.   By then both Paul and Ray's contracts will have expired and I don't expect either will be getting the 20-mil-a-year contracts they are currently on.   Paul will be 34 and Ray will be 36. 

I have no idea what their next contracts will be, but I am positive they will not be making that kind of money.  Maybe 10 mil a year each?

Maybe Rondo ends up making 10 mil a year on his next contract?

Maybe Perk ends up making like 6-7 mil a year?

That's 57 mil right there. 

You add in other contracts for rookies and role players and such... another 12 mil or so... you got 69 mil...

The salary cap this year was 59 mil.  You're already over the cap by 10 mil.  I don't think they want to be paying Posey 7 million at that point.  He's good, but not worth it.  Plus... the luxury cap level this year was 71 mil.  So if Posey pushed us 5 mil over the luxury level... they are shelling out like 12 mil to have the luxury of an old Posey.

There goes my dream of signing Durant.

  That's assuming that they don't try and flip Ray's contract for a longer max deal player that someone's trying to move. Same with Paul, although I think they'd be more likely to re-sign him for another year or two.

[winsomme]

i just also want to reiterate that the Cs are under the luxury cap for 2010 and 2011. So, the salaries that are doubled are the ones added between now and then.

Posey's salary is not the one that would be doubled. You can't just decide which salary you want to double. it has to be the one that actually takes you over the cap when it is signed.

if you want to argue that Pose's numbers will drop significantly and won't be worth the 6-7 mil then fine, but this idea that we will be paying Pose 12-14mil is just not fair.

  First of all, you do understand that our 2011 salary number is only for Paul Perk and KG and that our 2012 number is for KG only, right? It's pointless to claim that we're under the tax when we're clearly 12-14 player shy of a full roster in those years.

  And while claiming Posey's number shouldn't be doubled because of when he was signed helps your argument it doesn't mean anything in the real world. The team has core players and extraneous players. Of the non-core players they have small contract guys and larger contract guys. Unless you cut players from your core or downgrade your core talent to save money the only real place you can save money is the non-core players with larger contracts.

  How should Ainge phrase this to Wyc? We want Posey, but we have to give him 4 years instead of the 2 years we think he'll be worth the money. We're over the luxury threshold now and we will be for all four years but you shouldn't think of Posey as costing you double, you should think that Paul and Rajon's contracts count towards all that extra money because they haven't actually signed the extensions that we've budgeted or them yet.
 
  I'm an Ainge supporter by I'd fire him on the spot if he made a pitch like that.

in 2011/12 we will have KG under contract for 21 mil.   By then both Paul and Ray's contracts will have expired and I don't expect either will be getting the 20-mil-a-year contracts they are currently on.   Paul will be 34 and Ray will be 36. 

I have no idea what their next contracts will be, but I am positive they will not be making that kind of money.  Maybe 10 mil a year each?

Maybe Rondo ends up making 10 mil a year on his next contract?

Maybe Perk ends up making like 6-7 mil a year?

That's 57 mil right there. 

You add in other contracts for rookies and role players and such... another 12 mil or so... you got 69 mil...

The salary cap this year was 59 mil.  You're already over the cap by 10 mil.  I don't think they want to be paying Posey 7 million at that point.  He's good, but not worth it.  Plus... the luxury cap level this year was 71 mil.  So if Posey pushed us 5 mil over the luxury level... they are shelling out like 12 mil to have the luxury of an old Posey.

There goes my dream of signing Durant.

  That's assuming that they don't try and flip Ray's contract for a longer max deal player that someone's trying to move. Same with Paul, although I think they'd be more likely to re-sign him for another year or two.

that's the whole point. we have no idea what they are going to do. we also don't know what is going to happen to any of the current pieces that we have now that is outside of anybody's control. for all we know, circumstances could turn and we could end up being forced into rebuilding mode as opposed to tweaking mode...

[winsomme]

Maybe we could have signed him for those 4 years and then use him as part of a trade in 2010 to be players in that year's market. In the meantime he would have contributed for 2 more years to this team's quest for championships.

  Who's going to trade for a 34 year old bench player with 2 years and 13.5M left on his deal?

Then you just hold onto him for another year and trade him as an expiring.  Well worth it if you get 1 or 2 more championships out of it.  As a fan, I certainly would have no problem with the team taking a step or two back after winning multiple championships.  Probably will happen whether Posey was signed or not.

yeah, i was trying to make this point yesterday. why is it that we look at Wally's contract as a huge plus for CLE, but a 6 mil contract to Pose in this theoretical scenario was going to paralyze our roster...

it just doesn't add up...

  What doesn't make sense is complaining about strawman arguments all day and then coming up with a statement like that.

plus, this also presumes that Pose will have totally lost his game at that point and actually would have no value as a player on the Cs anymore....something that is not a given.

is it really that hard to believe that Pose could be averaging 8pts, 5 rebs and shoot 39% from 3 when he is 34?

  Considering that he was 7 and 4 and 38% from 3 for us when he was 31 that might be a bit optimistic.

and what are his stats this year?

plus, what exactly is the strawman here? aren't you claiming there is going to be enough of a drop off in his game in years 3 and 4 that he would no longer be worth the money and then kill our ability to go after other FAs?

why can't we look at Posey's contract in 2011 the way that we look at Wally's now?

  His stats are better (although they've dropped off the last 6 weeks or so) because he's playing more minutes and he's a bigger part of the offense for NO.

  The strawman was that Posey's contract would paralyze our salary cap. Kind of an overstatement.

  Wally's contract expires this year. Posey will still have another year in 2011. That's the difference.

maybe "paralyze" doesn't fit with your own assessment of what Posey's contract in 2011 or 2010 woud do to our roster flexibility. honestly, i'm not entirely clear what your position is in that respect.

but there are definitely posters here arguing that Posey's contract would kill our ability to target key FAs.

the point i was making about Wally's contract was in regards to just how many years of Posey's contract would be theoretically detrimental to the team. most are conceding that he would at least be useful for this season and next season. So if you now acknowledge that the final season of  his contract would actually not be bad (like Wally's) because it would be an expiring deal, then a 3yr deal really has no clear down side....and a 4 yr deal only really has one potentially bad year under that thinking...