When the team loses you hate doc but when they win you like him?

[nickagneta]

I like Doc, and I want no other coach at the moment, but just to play devil´s advocate here, I´ll tell you what an aspiring NBA scout wrote about Doc on another messageboard (can´t find it now). He said Doc would be the epitome for a coach without style. What he meant was that Doc has a playbook that consists of plays from all over the basketball world, but he doesn´t have his own philosophy. He also partially attributed the Celtics` high amount of turnovers to this fact. He said Doc just picks the cherries, but doesn´t know where to spit the stones.

Regarding nickagneta´s post of the Ainge Interview, I have to say that I can´t trust Danny 100% here. Ainge is known for hiding his true opinions and motivations. Maybe he wanted to take the spotlight off of Tom T, because he fears that other teams might take a long look at our D guru when they search for a new Headcoach. IIRC, Tom T coached 14 "top 10 defenses" in the last 15 years, so I´d say he is a big time contributor to what we have going here.

This conspiracy theory is pretty far fetched considering:

1) Danny interrupted the question to correct the interviewer almost immediately and was actually kid of angry at the assertion
2) If Thibodeau was exposed as the true "Guru" behind our and 13 other top ten defenses wouldn't he have been hired away this off season? Or for that matter, since he is such a mastermind behind this and all those other defenses, shouldn't he have been hired as a head coach somewhere before now after 29 years as a professional coach?
3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

And if you have audio or print proof that Doc said it was Thib's design, provide it. Jst don't theorize it. Doc has admitted that Thib teaches and coaches the defense but has never said it was his design.

I love now the President of the Boston Celtics isn't a credible source as to who's defensive system his coach is using. How far have we come to prove a false point where now we are not believing the orchestrator of our own team. How laughable is that.

And as I explained, Doc learned this system from Pat Reilly when he played under him in New York late in his playing career. Jeff Van Gundy continued the use of the same system in New York and taught it to his brother. When Van Gundy went to Houston he employeed the same exact system. Thibodeau has been under Van Gundy for year's learning this system. He did not design it. He was brought in here to help coach it because of his familiarization with it. The freaking president of the team admitted as such but he's not a credible source??!!??!!

[Casperian]

I like Doc, and I want no other coach at the moment, but just to play devil´s advocate here, I´ll tell you what an aspiring NBA scout wrote about Doc on another messageboard (can´t find it now). He said Doc would be the epitome for a coach without style. What he meant was that Doc has a playbook that consists of plays from all over the basketball world, but he doesn´t have his own philosophy. He also partially attributed the Celtics` high amount of turnovers to this fact. He said Doc just picks the cherries, but doesn´t know where to spit the stones.

Regarding nickagneta´s post of the Ainge Interview, I have to say that I can´t trust Danny 100% here. Ainge is known for hiding his true opinions and motivations. Maybe he wanted to take the spotlight off of Tom T, because he fears that other teams might take a long look at our D guru when they search for a new Headcoach. IIRC, Tom T coached 14 "top 10 defenses" in the last 15 years, so I´d say he is a big time contributor to what we have going here.

This conspiracy theory is pretty far fetched considering:

1) Danny interrupted the question to correct the interviewer almost immediately and was actually kid of angry at the assertion
2) If Thibodeau was exposed as the true "Guru" behind our and 13 other top ten defenses wouldn't he have been hired away this off season? Or for that matter, since he is such a mastermind behind this and all those other defenses, shouldn't he have been hired as a head coach somewhere before now after 29 years as a professional coach?
3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

And if you have audio or print proof that Doc said it was Thib's design, provide it. Jst don't theorize it. Doc has admitted that Thib teaches and coaches the defense but has never said it was his design.

I love now the President of the Boston Celtics isn't a credible source as to who's defensive system his coach is using. How far have we come to prove a false point where now we are not believing the orchestrator of our own team. How laughable is that.

And as I explained, Doc learned this system from Pat Reilly when he played under him in New York late in his playing career. Jeff Van Gundy continued the use of the same system in New York and taught it to his brother. When Van Gundy went to Houston he employeed the same exact system. Thibodeau has been under Van Gundy for year's learning this system. He did not design it. He was brought in here to help coach it because of his familiarization with it. The freaking president of the team admitted as such but he's not a credible source??!!??!!

Well, considering Danny´s history, I´d say not 100%. And you know that very well. I am convinced that if Danny has to lie, or better, "bend the truth" to benefit the Celtics, he will do it without second thoughts. That´s just my general opinion of Danny Ainge, and I actually admire this side of him.

You also know very well that there are a lot of smart assistant coaches in the NBA or the NCAA who might deserve a shot as an NBA coach, but there are only 30 spots and most of these guys will never get the chance as an NBA headcoach because of that. You need a certain kind of personality if you want to be headcoach, and you have to convince a front office to give you the job, although there are enough other guys who want the same job. There´s no need to use words like "defensive guru" as an exaggeration to make a point, nick. You´ll find the words "Tom T" and "defensive guru" together on this blog as often as you`ll find the words "Garnett" and "Intensity" together in one post.

I don´t have to prove a "general consensus", even if it might be a wrong one...and Tom T as the architect of our defense was the general consensus among Celtic fans for 1 1/2 year now, another thing you know very well.

3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

So, in your opinon, what are Tom T´s contributions to #17 at all? I mean, if the team plays the exact same defense as two years ago, why did the Celtics sign him in the first place? What is this "help" you were referring to? And how do you explain that Tom T is/was the defensive coach for NBA top defenses for 15 years now if he´s just Doc´s little helper to coach this system to players like KG, Pierce and Ray?

[BballTim]

I like Doc, and I want no other coach at the moment, but just to play devil´s advocate here, I´ll tell you what an aspiring NBA scout wrote about Doc on another messageboard (can´t find it now). He said Doc would be the epitome for a coach without style. What he meant was that Doc has a playbook that consists of plays from all over the basketball world, but he doesn´t have his own philosophy. He also partially attributed the Celtics` high amount of turnovers to this fact. He said Doc just picks the cherries, but doesn´t know where to spit the stones.

Regarding nickagneta´s post of the Ainge Interview, I have to say that I can´t trust Danny 100% here. Ainge is known for hiding his true opinions and motivations. Maybe he wanted to take the spotlight off of Tom T, because he fears that other teams might take a long look at our D guru when they search for a new Headcoach. IIRC, Tom T coached 14 "top 10 defenses" in the last 15 years, so I´d say he is a big time contributor to what we have going here.

This conspiracy theory is pretty far fetched considering:

1) Danny interrupted the question to correct the interviewer almost immediately and was actually kid of angry at the assertion
2) If Thibodeau was exposed as the true "Guru" behind our and 13 other top ten defenses wouldn't he have been hired away this off season? Or for that matter, since he is such a mastermind behind this and all those other defenses, shouldn't he have been hired as a head coach somewhere before now after 29 years as a professional coach?
3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

And if you have audio or print proof that Doc said it was Thib's design, provide it. Jst don't theorize it. Doc has admitted that Thib teaches and coaches the defense but has never said it was his design.

I love now the President of the Boston Celtics isn't a credible source as to who's defensive system his coach is using. How far have we come to prove a false point where now we are not believing the orchestrator of our own team. How laughable is that.

And as I explained, Doc learned this system from Pat Reilly when he played under him in New York late in his playing career. Jeff Van Gundy continued the use of the same system in New York and taught it to his brother. When Van Gundy went to Houston he employeed the same exact system. Thibodeau has been under Van Gundy for year's learning this system. He did not design it. He was brought in here to help coach it because of his familiarization with it. The freaking president of the team admitted as such but he's not a credible source??!!??!!

Well, considering Danny´s history, I´d say not 100%. And you know that very well. I am convinced that if Danny has to lie, or better, "bend the truth" to benefit the Celtics, he will do it without second thoughts. That´s just my general opinion of Danny Ainge, and I actually admire this side of him.

  Without getting too far into this discussion it's unfathomable that Danny could trick all of the other teams into thinking that an assistant coach has a much smaller role on the staff than that coach actually does if the coach in question has coached well for multiple teams for multiple years. Is Houston backing up our story in order to help us out?

[nickagneta]

I like Doc, and I want no other coach at the moment, but just to play devil´s advocate here, I´ll tell you what an aspiring NBA scout wrote about Doc on another messageboard (can´t find it now). He said Doc would be the epitome for a coach without style. What he meant was that Doc has a playbook that consists of plays from all over the basketball world, but he doesn´t have his own philosophy. He also partially attributed the Celtics` high amount of turnovers to this fact. He said Doc just picks the cherries, but doesn´t know where to spit the stones.

Regarding nickagneta´s post of the Ainge Interview, I have to say that I can´t trust Danny 100% here. Ainge is known for hiding his true opinions and motivations. Maybe he wanted to take the spotlight off of Tom T, because he fears that other teams might take a long look at our D guru when they search for a new Headcoach. IIRC, Tom T coached 14 "top 10 defenses" in the last 15 years, so I´d say he is a big time contributor to what we have going here.

This conspiracy theory is pretty far fetched considering:

1) Danny interrupted the question to correct the interviewer almost immediately and was actually kid of angry at the assertion
2) If Thibodeau was exposed as the true "Guru" behind our and 13 other top ten defenses wouldn't he have been hired away this off season? Or for that matter, since he is such a mastermind behind this and all those other defenses, shouldn't he have been hired as a head coach somewhere before now after 29 years as a professional coach?
3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

And if you have audio or print proof that Doc said it was Thib's design, provide it. Jst don't theorize it. Doc has admitted that Thib teaches and coaches the defense but has never said it was his design.

I love now the President of the Boston Celtics isn't a credible source as to who's defensive system his coach is using. How far have we come to prove a false point where now we are not believing the orchestrator of our own team. How laughable is that.

And as I explained, Doc learned this system from Pat Reilly when he played under him in New York late in his playing career. Jeff Van Gundy continued the use of the same system in New York and taught it to his brother. When Van Gundy went to Houston he employeed the same exact system. Thibodeau has been under Van Gundy for year's learning this system. He did not design it. He was brought in here to help coach it because of his familiarization with it. The freaking president of the team admitted as such but he's not a credible source??!!??!!

Well, considering Danny´s history, I´d say not 100%. And you know that very well. I am convinced that if Danny has to lie, or better, "bend the truth" to benefit the Celtics, he will do it without second thoughts. That´s just my general opinion of Danny Ainge, and I actually admire this side of him.

You also know very well that there are a lot of smart assistant coaches in the NBA or the NCAA who might deserve a shot as an NBA coach, but there are only 30 spots and most of these guys will never get the chance as an NBA headcoach because of that. You need a certain kind of personality if you want to be headcoach, and you have to convince a front office to give you the job, although there are enough other guys who want the same job. There´s no need to use words like "defensive guru" as an exaggeration to make a point, nick. You´ll find the words "Tom T" and "defensive guru" together on this blog as often as you`ll find the words "Garnett" and "Intensity" together in one post.

I don´t have to prove a "general consensus", even if it might be a wrong one...and Tom T as the architect of our defense was the general consensus among Celtic fans for 1 1/2 year now, another thing you know very well.

3) They were playing the same exact simple blitz rotational defense every year since Doc got here but it was being executed putridly by the under 20 crowd and vets who couldn't or wouldn't buy into it and play it.

So, in your opinon, what are Tom T´s contributions to #17 at all? I mean, if the team plays the exact same defense as two years ago, why did the Celtics sign him in the first place? What is this "help" you were referring to? And how do you explain that Tom T is/was the defensive coach for NBA top defenses for 15 years now if he´s just Doc´s little helper to coach this system to players like KG, Pierce and Ray?

I have never once said he had nothing to do with last year. He teaches and coaches the system. That has always been my stance. He was instrumental in teaching the system to veterans that were not familiar with it. He makes a ton of defensive observations of the team that he relays onto Doc during games. He is a great defensive coach and teacher. But he did not design the system, it is not his. He simply became knowledgeable of it while under Van Gundy.

Here's a Van Gundy quote to illustrate my point:

“Having Tom on this staff gives us a tremendous advantage,” Rockets Head Coach Jeff Van Gundy said. “He is an expert in the areas of game preparation and player development. I feel that he’s one of the finest coaches in the NBA today and should be a top candidate to be a head coach.”

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/tom_thibodeau/index.html

If you read the whole article you will see that he spent 5 years under Van Gundy in NY, two more under Don Chaney running the same system and then back to Van Gundy in Houston to help run the same  exact system once again. Funny how Van Gundy is considered a great defensive coach universally but now you want to give all the years of his team's defensive success to Ton Thibodeau like Van Gundy had nothing to do with it.

And I don't care if most of the people on this site have given the credit for the defense to Thibodeau for 1 1/2 years because they are wrong. Ainge has admitted as such and yet you want to dismiss what Ainge says because he protects information. So basically, under that idealogy, we can pretty much assume that Danny thinks the complete opposite of what he says.

Danny thinks Doc sucks, but gave him a contract anyway.
Danny thinks KG isn't intense, but he's the only guy in the league who psyches himself up by slamming his head into a stanchion.
Danny thinks Rondo is a bad PG even though stats are starting to show that he is amog the best PGs in the league.
Danny thinks Tony Allen is playing great defensively because just the other dat he publicly admitted Tony's defense hasn't been that good.
Danny thinks POB should be contributing now because he said he was a project and would pay dividends late in the year or next year.

We should just assume Danny always lies because he's being secretive. Oh come on. He lies about not knowing he was going to sit next to Durant's mother. He lies about who he might be interested in drafting. He lies about the severity of player injuries. Those are the type of things he lies about. Not who's design his team's defense is. The notion is ridiculous.

I also want to apologize to you Casperian as some of the attitude in the last post was not directed at you but at triboy. I just so happened to use your post as a reference but the proof thing and some of the chippiness wasn't and still isn't directed at you.

[Casperian]

  Without getting too far into this discussion it's unfathomable that Danny could trick all of the other teams into thinking that an assistant coach has a much smaller role on the staff than that coach actually does if the coach in question has coached well for multiple teams for multiple years. Is Houston backing up our story in order to help us out?

I agree, it´s unlikely, but I thought the word "maybe" would illustrate that it´s just my guess. Even if it´s a small role on the team, a mid-season loss of Tom T is nothing I would want to see happening, and I´m convinced neither does the Celtics management.
The only thing that´s really backing up Tom T´s status is his 15 year stretch of success in his role.

EDIT: I´ve sent you a PM, nick

[Tr1boy]

here are some articles which backs up my opinion about doc

http://dimemag.com/2008/01/docs-no-genius/

I have yet to see an article that praises doc. With such record last year he should have won coach of the year easily, the question is then why didn't he?? (ainge, big three, thibs, posey??)

nickagneta here are some sources which backup my point that doc is not the defensive architech for our club

"Assistant Coach Tom Thibadeau transformed the Boston Celtics into a defensive force in just a year’s time. "

source: https://www.onlinetickets.com/info/sports_nba/boston_celtics/2008_preview.html

lastly

"Why not? The Celtics still have the best defense in the League until further notice, led by the best defensive player (Kevin Garnett) and the behind-the-scenes architect that is assistant coach Tom Thibadeau. "

source: http://dimemag.com/2008/10/boston-celtics-nba-season-preview/

And i will try to find an interview quote that doc specifically states he doesn't interfere with thibadeaus defense system/trainning.

Remember also during halftime and come third quarter the celtics defense system adjust well to what the other team has done in the beginning of the game. Doc is not the one who is the genius behind this adapdation just to let you know.

Doc is not a dummy when it comes to defense but in terms of coaching the team effectively at it he is the assistant to thibs

Lastly thibadeau will definitely get a chance next year or maybe the year after. He just has to find a team that values discipline and strategy more than personality. Honestly i wouldn't be suprised if next year the wolves might steal him away from us.

[Chris]

here are some articles which backs up my opinion about doc

http://dimemag.com/2008/01/docs-no-genius/

I have yet to see an article that praises doc. With such record last year he should have won coach of the year easily, the question is then why didn't he?? (ainge, big three, thibs, posey??)

nickagneta here are some sources which backup my point that doc is not the defensive architech for our club

"Assistant Coach Tom Thibadeau transformed the Boston Celtics into a defensive force in just a year’s time. "

source: https://www.onlinetickets.com/info/sports_nba/boston_celtics/2008_preview.html

lastly

"Why not? The Celtics still have the best defense in the League until further notice, led by the best defensive player (Kevin Garnett) and the behind-the-scenes architect that is assistant coach Tom Thibadeau. "

source: http://dimemag.com/2008/10/boston-celtics-nba-season-preview/

And i will try to find an interview quote that doc specifically states he doesn't interfere with thibadeaus defense system.

Remember also during halftime and come third quarter the celtics defense system adjust well to what the other team has done in the beginning of the game. Doc is not the one who is the genius behind this adapdation just to let you know

Lastly thibadeau will definitely get a chance next year or maybe the year after. He just has to find a team that values discipline and strategy more than personality. Honestly i wouldn't be suprised if next year the wolves might steal him away from us.

Just to be clear, it is is not Thibodeau's system.  It is the same system that Doc was running (or I should say Tony Brown, since Doc also gave him the same responsibilities he gave to Thibodeau).  It is a system that is run by many coaches from the Pat Riley coaching tree.

That doesn't take away from the fact that Thibodeau does an excellent job implementing it, but if you are going to go with that as your basis, I think it shows much worse on Tony Brown than Doc Rivers.  If you are saying that Doc isn't responsible, because he relies on his assistant coaches, you have to use that accross the board, not just to make your argument.

Now you can say Doc did a terrible job of picking Brown to run his defense...but then he did a great job of picking Thibs.

[nickagneta]

I can not believe you bring the opinion of some nobody at Dime Magazine and the sales right up from an online ticketing site as proof that we should all not believe Danny and listen to you. You must be joking.

I'm done enabling you triboy. Think what you want. It's obviously very far out of touch with what the decision makers and players over at the Celtics facilities think and really, that's what matters.

[Toine43]

here are some articles which backs up my opinion about doc

http://dimemag.com/2008/01/docs-no-genius/

I have yet to see an article that praises doc. With such record last year he should have won coach of the year easily, the question is then why didn't he?? (ainge, big three, thibs, posey??)

nickagneta here are some sources which backup my point that doc is not the defensive architech for our club

"Assistant Coach Tom Thibadeau transformed the Boston Celtics into a defensive force in just a year’s time. "

source: https://www.onlinetickets.com/info/sports_nba/boston_celtics/2008_preview.html

lastly

"Why not? The Celtics still have the best defense in the League until further notice, led by the best defensive player (Kevin Garnett) and the behind-the-scenes architect that is assistant coach Tom Thibadeau. "

source: http://dimemag.com/2008/10/boston-celtics-nba-season-preview/

And i will try to find an interview quote that doc specifically states he doesn't interfere with thibadeaus defense system/trainning.

Remember also during halftime and come third quarter the celtics defense system adjust well to what the other team has done in the beginning of the game. Doc is not the one who is the genius behind this adapdation just to let you know.

Doc is not a dummy when it comes to defense but in terms of coaching the team effectively at it he is the assistant to thibs

Lastly thibadeau will definitely get a chance next year or maybe the year after. He just has to find a team that values discipline and strategy more than personality. Honestly i wouldn't be suprised if next year the wolves might steal him away from us.

Hahahahaha! Wow, Nick, I haven't read this whole tread (I think my head would explode if I tried to read more than just this page), but I can see why Triboy is irking you here. Those articles have absolutely no relevance to this discussion - they're just a half-hearted attempt to prove a point that everyone here including Triboy knows is false. This is Doc's defense. There is no debating that. Oh yeah, and in the future, Triboy, I would suggest finding a different source besides a ticket agency to back up your arguments.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm done enabling you triboy. Think what you want. It's obviously very far out of touch with what the decision makers and players over at the Celtics facilities think and really, that's what matters.

Finally you see the light. From his first post you could see it would be quite useless and a waste of time having a discussion with him.

[winsomme]

I don´t have to prove a "general consensus", even if it might be a wrong one...and Tom T as the architect of our defense was the general consensus among Celtic fans for 1 1/2 year now, another thing you know very well.

whoa, where is this "general consensus" coming from?

[Toine43]

I don't think that what Casperian is saying is that unreasonable. He's just wrong in this instance, but it's not like he said something outrageous. Triboy on the other hand...

[nickagneta]

Casperian was playing a little devil's advocate stance and did say maybe and possibly. I'm not sure that was his definitive opinion. Triboy on the other hand......

[crownsy]

I can not believe you bring the opinion of some nobody at Dime Magazine and the sales right up from an online ticketing site as proof that we should all not believe Danny and listen to you. You must be joking.

I'm done enabling you triboy. Think what you want. It's obviously very far out of touch with what the decision makers and players over at the Celtics facilities think and really, that's what matters.

wait, are you questioning the validity of an online ticket brokering firm as a source?

whats next, will wikipedia be questioned!!!!?

/sarcasm off.

Anyway, im headed home for the weekend, TP for fighting the good fight nick, but its not worth your time and well thought out posts honestly :/

[Tr1boy]

hey don't participate in the thread if you don't want to. nobody is forcing you.

btw i know articles are opinions. But isn't funny almost all these people from magazines, blogs just outside fans say the same thing and that is doc aint the defensive architect. Even if it is true he is using pat rileys system the guy who is making it click is thibs just remember that.

Some of you guys need to get real and concentrate on the issues or making proper counter arguments instead of looking at other things to nitpick.