Everyone notice KG's "D" lately

[StartOrien]

I've spent some time wondering if they'd think of putting KG on Lebron in the playoffs, as the Cavs are generally undersized down low. I'd imagine Pierce could take Wallace or Hickson if he needed a blow.

I'm not sold on the idea, but it's been an intriguing concept and a good way of wasting time at work.

[Binky-King]

You're definition of "post defender" seems to be pretty narrow.  No, Garnett won't guard Shaq, Howard, or Oden often due to size/strength mismatches.  But he can and has guarded every other great big man that I can think of in the post when needed, to good results.

And the "when needed" is a key aspect of this.  KG has a lot of roles on this team: defensive quarterback, primary help defender, lead rebounder, lead post defender, shooter, pick-setter, post-presence offensively, offense facilitator/passer, etc.  He generally does some combo of all of the above in every game, but not to the same degree.  But I've noticed that when he needs to concentrate and ramp up any 1 particular aspect, he's been able to do that.

Focus: post defense.  Since Garnett has been in Boston with the luxury to spend time/energy dedicated primarily to removing an opposing big man, he has shown that he can do it to pretty much anyone.  Here's a Fave Five of outstanding offensive bigs (from low-post legends to the best perimeter scoring 7-footer ever) that KG has erased at key periods since becoming a Celtic:

1) Locked down Tim Duncan in San Antonio.  Perk started the game with the assignment and Duncan had 8 early points while the Spurs jetted out to a lead, then sometime in the second quarter KG switched onto Duncan and erased him from the game (2 points total for Duncan over most of the final 3 quarters) while Boston mounted a huge comeback to win.

2) Locked down a hot Yao for the back half of the 4th quarter to end a Rockets game last January, leading a Celtics comeback victory.

3) Locked up a scorching Amare (22 points at the half) for the whole 3rd quarter (0 points, 4 TOs) as a close game turned into a Celtics rout once Phoenix lost their best scorer during that key stretch.

4) Erased Dirk on Sunday (Dirk had 6 points on 2-for-9 FG and 2-for-4 FT, 4 TO, 0 asts during the time when KG was on the floor).  Dirk, by the way, was on fire, averaging 30.5 ppg in the 6 games before facing the Celtics.

5) Routinely removes Bosh from games, almost at will, such as in the game 2 weeks ago when Bosh had 16 points with 8 minutes left in the 4th Q of a game where Toronto had a small lead.  KG re-entered the game with 8 minutes left, then held Bosh scoreless in final 8 minutes after KG returned in regulation, then scoreless in overtime until meaningless FTs long after score decided

Again, KG doesn't always play that level of 1-on-1 defense.  He generally saves it for when the Celts are playing a team with a dominant big man who, if removed from the equation gives the Celtics a markedly better chance to win.  In those situations I guess it is deemed worth it for KG to expend the energy, be it for stretches or for quarters at a time, to be that lock-down 1-on-1 defender.  So under most circumstances yeah, KG is a better help defender than a 1-on-1 guy, but he has clearly and repeatedly shown since he's been a Celtic that when facing the best and the need arises he can not just slow them down...he can take them completely off the board.

Look, I'm not saying KG isn't a great 1-on-1 defender, or that he can't guard Shaq and the like for spots in a game but he is not a lock down post defender, and rarely defends post players in the Celtics' defense. Perkins does, I don't know how anyone who has watched the Celtics play can say otherwise.

Btw Dirk, Amare & Bosh aren't post players either, they are the type of tweaners (which is what Kevin is) that Garnett can routinely dominate defensively. But make no mistake if Garnett had to defend the best post players - over a course of game he'd be worn out let alone a 82 game season.  

Why do you think Doc was so hesitant moving KG to the 5 position while Perkins was out? It's no a secret. Sh*t, Garnett occasionally had problems with Gasol in the post during the finals.

His tenaciousness makes up for what he lacks in strength, but it's just nature, without help at the end of the game guys like Dwight, Shaq etc would be pinning Kevin underneath the basket every other play and he'd be too drained to give you anything offensively.

[drza44]

You're definition of "post defender" seems to be pretty narrow.  No, Garnett won't guard Shaq, Howard, or Oden often due to size/strength mismatches.  But he can and has guarded every other great big man that I can think of in the post when needed, to good results.

And the "when needed" is a key aspect of this.  KG has a lot of roles on this team: defensive quarterback, primary help defender, lead rebounder, lead post defender, shooter, pick-setter, post-presence offensively, offense facilitator/passer, etc.  He generally does some combo of all of the above in every game, but not to the same degree.  But I've noticed that when he needs to concentrate and ramp up any 1 particular aspect, he's been able to do that.

Focus: post defense.  Since Garnett has been in Boston with the luxury to spend time/energy dedicated primarily to removing an opposing big man, he has shown that he can do it to pretty much anyone.  Here's a Fave Five of outstanding offensive bigs (from low-post legends to the best perimeter scoring 7-footer ever) that KG has erased at key periods since becoming a Celtic:

1) Locked down Tim Duncan in San Antonio.  Perk started the game with the assignment and Duncan had 8 early points while the Spurs jetted out to a lead, then sometime in the second quarter KG switched onto Duncan and erased him from the game (2 points total for Duncan over most of the final 3 quarters) while Boston mounted a huge comeback to win.

2) Locked down a hot Yao for the back half of the 4th quarter to end a Rockets game last January, leading a Celtics comeback victory.

3) Locked up a scorching Amare (22 points at the half) for the whole 3rd quarter (0 points, 4 TOs) as a close game turned into a Celtics rout once Phoenix lost their best scorer during that key stretch.

4) Erased Dirk on Sunday (Dirk had 6 points on 2-for-9 FG and 2-for-4 FT, 4 TO, 0 asts during the time when KG was on the floor).  Dirk, by the way, was on fire, averaging 30.5 ppg in the 6 games before facing the Celtics.

5) Routinely removes Bosh from games, almost at will, such as in the game 2 weeks ago when Bosh had 16 points with 8 minutes left in the 4th Q of a game where Toronto had a small lead.  KG re-entered the game with 8 minutes left, then held Bosh scoreless in final 8 minutes after KG returned in regulation, then scoreless in overtime until meaningless FTs long after score decided

Again, KG doesn't always play that level of 1-on-1 defense.  He generally saves it for when the Celts are playing a team with a dominant big man who, if removed from the equation gives the Celtics a markedly better chance to win.  In those situations I guess it is deemed worth it for KG to expend the energy, be it for stretches or for quarters at a time, to be that lock-down 1-on-1 defender.  So under most circumstances yeah, KG is a better help defender than a 1-on-1 guy, but he has clearly and repeatedly shown since he's been a Celtic that when facing the best and the need arises he can not just slow them down...he can take them completely off the board.

Look, I'm not saying KG isn't a great 1-on-1 defender, or that he can't guard Shaq and the like for spots in a game but he is not a lock down post defender, and rarely defends post players in the Celtics' defense. Perkins does, I don't know how anyone who has watched the Celtics play can say otherwise.

Btw Dirk, Amare & Bosh aren't post players either, they are the type of tweaners (which is what Kevin is) that Garnett can routinely dominate defensively. But make no mistake if Garnett had to defend the best post players - over a course of game he'd be worn out let alone a 82 game season.  

Why do you think Doc was so hesitant moving KG to the 5 position while Perkins was out? It's no a secret. Sh*t, Garnett occasionally had problems with Gasol in the post during the finals.

His tenaciousness makes up for what he lacks in strength, but it's just nature, without help at the end of the game guys like Dwight, Shaq etc would be pinning Kevin underneath the basket every other play and he'd be too drained to give you anything offensively.

Again, your definition of "post defense" reads to me more like "center defense".  KG's not a center for the obvious size reasons.  But he is still an excellent defender of big men in the post.  If an outstanding light-heavyweight boxer can knock out anyone in his weight class and also has the power to knock out all but the very biggest heavyweights, he is still considered a boxer with power.  Similarly, since KG can defensively lock down any power forward in the post and also has the ability to lock down all but the very biggest centers, he should still be considered a lock down post defender.

I notice that of the 5 examples I chose from the last year where KG shut down a superstar big man on a continuum from primarily perimeter to mainly post, you replied by only mentioning the more perimeter-based ones.  But Duncan and Yao are, by any definition, two of the best post players in the NBA today.  And KG has shown he can shut them down as well for long stretches of game action, if  needed.

Perkins is a great post defender, and nothing I've said about KG diminishes that.  That is Perk's primary defensive role, and he is good at it.  And the fact that Perk can be such a rock in the post makes it infinitely easier for KG to be the defensive rover for the Cs most of the time.  This split of roles works very well for the Celtics against most teams, and in most situations.  But when he is called upon to shut down the best of the best in the NBA in the post, KG can (and has) done it for the Cs.  I don't see what the hesitation would be in calling him a great post defender.

[drza44]

I've spent some time wondering if they'd think of putting KG on Lebron in the playoffs, as the Cavs are generally undersized down low. I'd imagine Pierce could take Wallace or Hickson if he needed a blow.

I'm not sold on the idea, but it's been an intriguing concept and a good way of wasting time at work.

I've seen that mentioned before, but I don't think it would be a very good idea.  KG doesn't have the footspeed to stay with LeBron on a regular basis.  Maybe 8 years ago, when KG was actually still playing a lot of SF, it might have been possible.  But now, outside of the occasional switch, I don't think it would end well.

[cordobes]

The only elite post defender on the Celtics is Perkins, Garnett doesn't have the build to be an elite post defender. But he routinely shuts down other tweaners like Dirk, Bosh and the like.

Garnett anchors the defense with his "help", I don't think I've ever seen a better help defender play the game. But to call him a lock-down post player just isn't accurate.

I partially disagree. Post defence is much more than playing straight up from behind - an option where Perkins is obviously better than Garnett, at least when defending the bigger low post players. But Garnett was the one defending Shaq, for instance. While I agree that what makes Garnett a great defender is essentially his help defence (that's what anchors a defence) and his amazing pick'n'roll defence, he can do a very good job guarding the low post.

Garnett also has an effective low post game offensively, but his build just doesn't allow him to play in the post consistently. It's the same on defense, if he had to guard the Dwights, Shaqs & Yaos of the world night in and night out he'd be worn out and the coaches know this. He's not a lock down post defender any more than he's back-to-the-basket post player.

There are basically 3 or 4 ways of defending the post player: - playing from behind; - fronting; - playing the 3/4 side denial and some variations.

Strength is important if you want to play behind the opponent, straight up. But if you're fronting, like KG often does when matchedup with bigger opponents (Yao, Shaq, etc), it's not necessary, doesn't matter at all: awareness, technique and length are much more important.

Now, some purists may argue that fronting is not a good way of defending the low post, that it's too risky, it's merely a gimmick. But many others see it as a perfectly legit way of doing it and use it as their first option. No matter the way one sees it, Garnett has been guarding post players in these league for years and doing it well.

I agree with what drza44 wrote:

Perkins is a great post defender, and nothing I've said about KG diminishes that.  That is Perk's primary defensive role, and he is good at it.  And the fact that Perk can be such a rock in the post makes it infinitely easier for KG to be the defensive rover for the Cs most of the time.  This split of roles works very well for the Celtics against most teams, and in most situations.  But when he is called upon to shut down the best of the best in the NBA in the post, KG can (and has) done it for the Cs. 

[Binky-King]

Again, your definition of "post defense" reads to me more like "center defense".  KG's not a center for the obvious size reasons.  But he is still an excellent defender of big men in the post.  If an outstanding light-heavyweight boxer can knock out anyone in his weight class and also has the power to knock out all but the very biggest heavyweights, he is still considered a boxer with power.  Similarly, since KG can defensively lock down any power forward in the post and also has the ability to lock down all but the very biggest centers, he should still be considered a lock down post defender.

I notice that of the 5 examples I chose from the last year where KG shut down a superstar big man on a continuum from primarily perimeter to mainly post, you replied by only mentioning the more perimeter-based ones.  But Duncan and Yao are, by any definition, two of the best post players in the NBA today.  And KG has shown he can shut them down as well for long stretches of game action, if  needed.

Perkins is a great post defender, and nothing I've said about KG diminishes that.  That is Perk's primary defensive role, and he is good at it.  And the fact that Perk can be such a rock in the post makes it infinitely easier for KG to be the defensive rover for the Cs most of the time.  This split of roles works very well for the Celtics against most teams, and in most situations.  But when he is called upon to shut down the best of the best in the NBA in the post, KG can (and has) done it for the Cs.  I don't see what the hesitation would be in calling him a great post defender.

What exactly are you arguing? I never stated that KG couldn't defend the post, he can, just not consistently. Would you call a player who can't shoot a consistent jump-shot a great jump-shooter? I wouldn't either, which is why KG isn't a lock down post defender.

Out of all the examples you gave Duncan is probably the one I would consider a real low post player. But Tim is not overly physical like say a Dwight....so KG fares much better against him, but lets be realistic Garnett doesn't just shutdown Duncan like he does Bosh, examples of such would be an exception rather than the rule, just like the time or times he guarded Yao in spots and was successful.

[Binky-King]

Now, some purists may argue that fronting is not a good way of defending the low post, that it's too risky, it's merely a gimmick. But many others see it as a perfectly legit way of doing it and use it as their first option. No matter the way one sees it, Garnett has been guarding post players in these league for years and doing it well.

Against Phoenix it was a gimmick and once the Suns got the ball to Shaq the Celtics used a lot of traps and hard doubles to stop him. If you have a good rotating defense you can be successful for a bit.

But against a competent offense over-committing that much help to the post is going to kill you. Imagine if that was the strategy against the Magic? Would of been a much different outcome.

[TrueGreen]

I've spent some time wondering if they'd think of putting KG on Lebron in the playoffs, as the Cavs are generally undersized down low. I'd imagine Pierce could take Wallace or Hickson if he needed a blow.

I'm not sold on the idea, but it's been an intriguing concept and a good way of wasting time at work.

I've seen that mentioned before, but I don't think it would be a very good idea.  KG doesn't have the footspeed to stay with LeBron on a regular basis.  Maybe 8 years ago, when KG was actually still playing a lot of SF, it might have been possible.  But now, outside of the occasional switch, I don't think it would end well.

Also, LeBron would beat KG to a pulp, just ask PP. KG would be more effective not playing LeBron.

[NoraG1]

Again, your definition of "post defense" reads to me more like "center defense".  KG's not a center for the obvious size reasons.  But he is still an excellent defender of big men in the post.  If an outstanding light-heavyweight boxer can knock out anyone in his weight class and also has the power to knock out all but the very biggest heavyweights, he is still considered a boxer with power.  Similarly, since KG can defensively lock down any power forward in the post and also has the ability to lock down all but the very biggest centers, he should still be considered a lock down post defender.

I notice that of the 5 examples I chose from the last year where KG shut down a superstar big man on a continuum from primarily perimeter to mainly post, you replied by only mentioning the more perimeter-based ones.  But Duncan and Yao are, by any definition, two of the best post players in the NBA today.  And KG has shown he can shut them down as well for long stretches of game action, if  needed.

Perkins is a great post defender, and nothing I've said about KG diminishes that.  That is Perk's primary defensive role, and he is good at it.  And the fact that Perk can be such a rock in the post makes it infinitely easier for KG to be the defensive rover for the Cs most of the time.  This split of roles works very well for the Celtics against most teams, and in most situations.  But when he is called upon to shut down the best of the best in the NBA in the post, KG can (and has) done it for the Cs.  I don't see what the hesitation would be in calling him a great post defender.

What exactly are you arguing? I never stated that KG couldn't defend the post, he can, just not consistently. Would you call a player who can't shoot a consistent jump-shot a great jump-shooter? I wouldn't either, which is why KG isn't a lock down post defender.

Out of all the examples you gave Duncan is probably the one I would consider a real low post player. But Tim is not overly physical like say a Dwight....so KG fares much better against him, but lets be realistic Garnett doesn't just shutdown Duncan like he does Bosh, examples of such would be an exception rather than the rule, just like the time or times he guarded Yao in spots and was successful.

Well, whatever he does is good enough to get him defensive player of the year...

[RAcker]

Most pf's in the league are to lazy to chase or go out to the perimeter each trip down the floor to guard Dirk.KG will follow him to the locker room if it means keeping him in ck.I give Scal credit Sunday for playing some good D also on Dirk,even if the offciating was terrible.

But wait...didn't Scal's face foul Dirkoff's elbow? 

[drza44]

Again, your definition of "post defense" reads to me more like "center defense".  KG's not a center for the obvious size reasons.  But he is still an excellent defender of big men in the post.  If an outstanding light-heavyweight boxer can knock out anyone in his weight class and also has the power to knock out all but the very biggest heavyweights, he is still considered a boxer with power.  Similarly, since KG can defensively lock down any power forward in the post and also has the ability to lock down all but the very biggest centers, he should still be considered a lock down post defender.

I notice that of the 5 examples I chose from the last year where KG shut down a superstar big man on a continuum from primarily perimeter to mainly post, you replied by only mentioning the more perimeter-based ones.  But Duncan and Yao are, by any definition, two of the best post players in the NBA today.  And KG has shown he can shut them down as well for long stretches of game action, if  needed.

Perkins is a great post defender, and nothing I've said about KG diminishes that.  That is Perk's primary defensive role, and he is good at it.  And the fact that Perk can be such a rock in the post makes it infinitely easier for KG to be the defensive rover for the Cs most of the time.  This split of roles works very well for the Celtics against most teams, and in most situations.  But when he is called upon to shut down the best of the best in the NBA in the post, KG can (and has) done it for the Cs.  I don't see what the hesitation would be in calling him a great post defender.

What exactly are you arguing? I never stated that KG couldn't defend the post, he can, just not consistently. Would you call a player who can't shoot a consistent jump-shot a great jump-shooter? I wouldn't either, which is why KG isn't a lock down post defender.

Out of all the examples you gave Duncan is probably the one I would consider a real low post player. But Tim is not overly physical like say a Dwight....so KG fares much better against him, but lets be realistic Garnett doesn't just shutdown Duncan like he does Bosh, examples of such would be an exception rather than the rule, just like the time or times he guarded Yao in spots and was successful.

I'm arguing that KG is excellent at playing post defense.  Your analogy about a player that can't shoot a jump shot doesn't fit, because KG actually CAN play great post defense on demand, it just isn't practical for either him or the team for him to have to do it.  I had to think for a minute to come up with a better analogy (since you didn't like the boxing one...I kinda liked that one), but I think maybe this one works.

Donovan McNabb is great at scrambling.  But it is better for the Eagles if he lets Westbrook do the running, while McNabb concentrates on being a pocket passer.  Plus, physically, he would just wear down over time if he tried to take off and scramble all game long.  But when McNabb needs to scramble, he can still do it at a very high level.  It's impractical for both him and his team for him to do it often, but he CAN do it.  Therefore, I would consider McNabb an excellent scrambler even if he hardly ever does it anymore.

That's how I see KG's post defense.  He CAN do it, often locks opponents up when called upon to.  But usually it's better for the team if Perk defends the post while KG roams, and this also keeps KG from physically wearing down.  But that's not the same as being unable to do it well like a guy without a good jumper... just the opposite, in fact, as he's outstanding at it.

[sinbad]

I can tell you he is a lock down post defender. at 7-0+ 253, to say he doesn't have the bulk/size to play against the Power Forwards (NOT Centers)is not true. I've never seen a PF back his way against KG like Shaq did in the day. I've seen Shaq and Howard do it to KG but these are true centers. Bosh is 6-10 230, Dirk is 7-0 245, Duncan is 6-11 260, Amare is 6-10 245, Gasol is 7-0 250, Boozer is 6-8 250, West is 6-8 230. He either has a height advantage or a weight advantage. Defense is all-encompassing. Is their any post player who is a better combination man-help defender in the NBA? No way. Name me another PF who has the range to cover so much ground. Name me another PF who has a better combination of size, quickness, agility, intelligence, and passion. He is widely regarded as the premier pick and roll defender in the game. He is also as tough as they come. I can remember only once did this warrior take a charge. He will either try to block your shot or foul you trying. Again this goes back to his mentality...nothing easy, everything earned. Look, lets keep it simple, there's 5 seconds on the clock and Amare, Dirk, Duncan, Bosh, West, or Gasol has the ball, would you want any other PF in the league guarding them? If so...name the player.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

I can tell you he is a lock down post defender. at 7-0+ 253, to say he doesn't have the bulk/size to play against the Power Forwards (NOT Centers)is not true. I've never seen a PF back his way against KG like Shaq did in the day. I've seen Shaq and Howard do it to KG but these are true centers. Bosh is 6-10 230, Dirk is 7-0 245, Duncan is 6-11 260, Amare is 6-10 245, Gasol is 7-0 250, Boozer is 6-8 250, West is 6-8 230. He either has a height advantage or a weight advantage. Defense is all-encompassing. Is their any post player who is a better combination man-help defender in the NBA? No way. Name me another PF who has the range to cover so much ground. Name me another PF who has a better combination of size, quickness, agility, intelligence, and passion. He is widely regarded as the premier pick and roll defender in the game. He is also as tough as they come. I can remember only once did this warrior take a charge. He will either try to block your shot or foul you trying. Again this goes back to his mentality...nothing easy, everything earned. Look, lets keep it simple, there's 5 seconds on the clock and Amare, Dirk, Duncan, Bosh, West, or Gasol has the ball, would you want any other PF in the league guarding them? If so...name the player.

Huh, I highly doubt he weighs 253
And as far as Power forwards who have backed him down ...plenty...even one of the sofest Power forwards in the game has taken it right at him and dunked on his head IN THE FINALS...its laregely forgotten, because we won those finals..but it still happened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Gv4xqNpic

Missing pekins on that play

[sinbad]

ESPN lists him at 6-11 253. On the Dan Patrick show, Patrick asked Joe Alexander who surprised him, who was bigger than he thought and Alexander replied, KG Patrick asked was he taller, heavier? Alexander: both, he's huge.

[TatteredOnMySleeve]

ESPN lists him at 6-11 253. On the Dan Patrick show, Patrick asked Joe Alexander who surprised him, who was bigger than he thought and Alexander replied, KG Patrick asked was he taller, heavier? Alexander: both, he's huge.

KG is at least 7'2 if not taller, everyone knows it and probably 220 LBS
I would take whatever hes listed at with a grain of salt