Starting to warm up to POB

[ScoobyDoo]

Look, I was perhaps the most vocal critic on this signing of Patrick O'Bryant. My uncle and I have argued about the Celtics for 25 years and this has been an ongoing argument since we signed him. Me against it and my Uncle for it (Moron that he is). I have to educate him constantly. It wasn't that I didn't think he had the talent...he does, he has good talent for a seven footer. My objection was that I thought he was soft and lazy and while I do beleive people can have a fire lit under them and wake up from their sloth, I don't think you can teach toughness and that was my main concern. But I'm seeing him hold his position just a little better now and seeing him throw his body into people just a little more now. The steps are very incremental but they are occuring.

His biggest short comings are all physical to me. If he were a little stronger and our strength coaches put him through the Perkins program for two years, you might have a completely different player.

1. He'd be able to hold his position better on both ends of the floor
2. He'd be quicker up and down the floor
3. He'd be faster on rotations
4. He'd be more willing to throw his body around down low because he'd be stronger and able to do it. It's really tough to bang when you're going against guys that are simply stronger than you. Also being in great shape and being stronger gives you alot more confidence and edge out there. Hard to be confident when you're getting man handled because you physically can't compete. That may change...in time.

I'm going to put him on the back burner of my Celtics log, limit my expectations but but keep an eye on him. Over time, we all might be suprsied. Time is the key word. The Celtics need to tear this guy down first, mentally and physically. Then, they are going to start from the ground up and re-build the kid. Look at Perkins in year one to years 3-4 and now. And with Perkins in house, we have the time to develope him behind Perkins...

On one hand I hope I am wrong because I will never hear the end of it from my Uncle.

On the other hand..if it happens, we may look back two years from now and say we got a steal. Depending on his physical developement, he could be a decent player.

1. He's very long and definately affects shots aroudn the rim
2. He can shoot
3. He's made enough decent passes to know he's at least competant in that area.

Strength is his number one problem right now. It affects everything he needs to do.

That may change.

Let's see...     

[Andy Jick]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

[crownsy]

I agree, ive been no huge supporter either but if he plays like he did wesnday, he can get some minutes.

His effort was noticably better against the nets, just hustle and defensive rotations wise, than his other apperances.

as i said in the game thread, chase those minutes through defense and scrapping POB, I know you can score when you want to.

[EJPLAYA]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

[moiso]

This isn't the first time Doc has made similar quotes about POB.  Really, nothing has changed since day one.  He does show flashes of potential and the ability to block shots, rebound, and hit 15ft jump shots, but apparently the effort and hustle have not changed at all.

[winsomme]

the thing that i try to point out about youngs (and also keep reminding myself about) is that they are not a static situation.

POB, Giddens and Walker all looked way out of place in the preseason. They just looked lost and overwhelmed most of the time.

the quick reaction is that they just aren't very good. many have used these assessments in noting that nobody around the league would be interested in the chips we have.

but i think we all can agree that Walker looked a heck of a lot more comfortable out there than the last time we saw him. POB is a little more problematic because he's actually been around a couple of years and should be further along...

still, we have a really good coaching staff and about the strongest vet roster in the league, so these guys are getting the best of both worlds. they also have the incentive that if they do improve, they could be getting PT on a serious playoff team...

so i think we need to keep in mind that these guys readiness and improvement could be happening without us necessarily knowing it.

will the learning curve be steep enough to really contribute to this team in a playoff run, maybe not, but it certainly is reasonable that they could earn legit playing time and even raise their stock as chips for a possible deal...

even adding in Pruitt, i have to say that all the guys seem like they are coming along, and that includes POB.

[Chris]

the thing that i try to point out about youngs (and also keep reminding myself about) is that they are not a static situation.

POB, Giddens and Walker all looked way out of place in the preseason. They just looked lost and overwhelmed most of the time.

the quick reaction is that they just aren't very good. many have used these assessments in noting that nobody around the league would be interested in the chips we have.

but i think we all can agree that Walker looked a heck of a lot more comfortable out there than the last time we saw him. POB is a little more problematic because he's actually been around a couple of years and should be further along...

still, we have a really good coaching staff and about the strongest vet roster in the league, so these guys are getting the best of both worlds. they also have the incentive that if they do improve, they could be getting PT on a serious playoff team...

so i think we need to keep in mind that these guys readiness and improvement could be happening without us necessarily knowing it.

will the learning curve be steep enough to really contribute to this team in a playoff run, maybe not, but it certainly is reasonable that they could earn legit playing time and even raise their stock as chips for a possible deal...

even adding in Pruitt, i have to say that all the guys seem like they are coming along, and that includes POB.

Good post.  I agree with this completely.

Honestly, I still think there is a very good chance that POB is a decent (or better) NBA player at some point.  I just really have a hard time believing it will be anytime this year.

In addition to the fact that he still has a lot to learn about things like positioning, and playing within the system, he is also incredibly weak.

I think some people underestimate how important it is for a big man to be able to hold position in the post.  It doesn't show up as much in garbagetime, but if he were playing regular minutes, other teams would attack him immediately, and without the strength to hold his position (or the knowledge of where he should be), it just would be a disaster.

Give him another year of physical development, and working in the system, and you may have something.  But right now, I just don't see him doing much for this team.

[Andy Jick]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

you do realize that the guys who don't play in games still show up and have workouts before and AFTER games, right?  it's not, "well, crap...i didn't get to play today.  but hey, at least i get paid for doing nothing."

doesn't work that way...these guys are being worked out in individual sessions and 3-on-3 stuff and video sessions and weight training.  it's not a 2 hour a day job, but the committed ones find themselves going after it nearly non-stop.  i believe that's what doc is calling him out for...

larry bird said to be a great player you have to be SELF-determined...POB doesn't show this, and doc has noticed this.

[winsomme]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

you do realize that the guys who don't play in games still show up and have workouts before and AFTER games, right?  it's not, "well, crap...i didn't get to play today.  but hey, at least i get paid for doing nothing."

doesn't work that way...these guys are being worked out in individual sessions and 3-on-3 stuff and video sessions and weight training.  it's not a 2 hour a day job, but the committed ones find themselves going after it nearly non-stop.  i believe that's what doc is calling him out for...

larry bird said to be a great player you have to be SELF-determined...POB doesn't show this, and doc has noticed this.

i think you are taking little snippets of information and patching the rest together.

POB clearly has underachieved to this point and Doc and KG have let him know in no uncertain terms what is expected of him in order to get on the court, but whether or not he is responding to these calls, I agree with EJP, we really have no idea at this point.

to me, he looked more present in the few recent minutes he has gotten. hard to give any major significance to it, but i don't think it is fair to go all the way in the other direction either.

[EJPLAYA]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

you do realize that the guys who don't play in games still show up and have workouts before and AFTER games, right?  it's not, "well, crap...i didn't get to play today.  but hey, at least i get paid for doing nothing."

doesn't work that way...these guys are being worked out in individual sessions and 3-on-3 stuff and video sessions and weight training.  it's not a 2 hour a day job, but the committed ones find themselves going after it nearly non-stop.  i believe that's what doc is calling him out for...

larry bird said to be a great player you have to be SELF-determined...POB doesn't show this, and doc has noticed this.

If this were true completely and he was lazy as you say Doc wouldn't give him ANY time out on the floor, even in garbage time. It's not like it would hurt the team. Doc's comments are obviously meant to motivate the guy (as was KG's rant) , but are being way too overblown on here. Just because they are being repeated daily in this blog, doesn't mean that Doc keeps saying them over and over.

As far as his individual workouts before games there is no question that they get to see some of what he is doing, however I would argue that these workouts are the reason he is getting garbage minutes. You don't have anything stating that POB doesn't work hard in these. A couple comments throughout the whole year from Doc stating when asked about POB stating he needs to pick up his intensity, doesn't mean he thinks the guy is lazy or has no ability to turn into a solid backup.

[crownsy]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

you do realize that the guys who don't play in games still show up and have workouts before and AFTER games, right?  it's not, "well, crap...i didn't get to play today.  but hey, at least i get paid for doing nothing."

doesn't work that way...these guys are being worked out in individual sessions and 3-on-3 stuff and video sessions and weight training.  it's not a 2 hour a day job, but the committed ones find themselves going after it nearly non-stop.  i believe that's what doc is calling him out for...

larry bird said to be a great player you have to be SELF-determined...POB doesn't show this, and doc has noticed this.

If this were true completely and he was lazy as you say Doc wouldn't give him ANY time out on the floor, even in garbage time. It's not like it would hurt the team. Doc's comments are obviously meant to motivate the guy (as was KG's rant) , but are being way too overblown on here. Just because they are being repeated daily in this blog, doesn't mean that Doc keeps saying them over and over.

As far as his individual workouts before games there is no question that they get to see some of what he is doing, however I would argue that these workouts are the reason he is getting garbage minutes. You don't have anything stating that POB doesn't work hard in these. A couple comments throughout the whole year from Doc stating when asked about POB stating he needs to pick up his intensity, doesn't mean he thinks the guy is lazy or has no ability to turn into a solid backup.

Doc ha ssaid multiple times its an effort thing, no matter how many much you want to downplay it EJ. of course he's trying to motivate the kid, but that doesn't change the fact that media reports from GS and boston, coaches in Gs and boston, and now teamates in both GS and boston have gotten on him about effort.

As i said, he looked more into the game effort wise this last time (possably do to a D-leage call up getting a full quarter and him sitting until late, which would tick me off as well) and i hope he continues to do that.

But to try to dismiss all the reports about him, from multiple sources, on his effort level because you want to belive effort isn't his problem?

sorry bro, can't buy it. There's no giant conspiricy to discredit POB, first by nelson and now by doc. He's a young kid who has the talent but doesn't really get the fact that he has to bust his tail. Not really a hard attitude for me to belive out of a 20 year old.

[EJPLAYA]

i can't warm up to him...according to his coach he's lazy, though doc didn't use the specific term, that's what he meant.

he's not going to play, so he might as well take a few pointers from M.L. Carr (ie. towel waving)...

i believe that doc has laid out a challenge to him and has done so through the media...we'll see if the kid is bright enough to latch onto this or simply doesn't care.  he has so much talent, but so little determination that it's really sad.

Can you tell me where POB is supposed to answer this challenge with no practices? I would argue that his performance out there on the floor has gone a long way to silencing the thought that he doesn't care. He can only do so much in spotty minutes against scrubs. His numbers have shown he is a capable shot blocker with an ability to rebound and a solid offensive repertoire. (which our current fat center does not possess) Not much more the guy can do right now in under 4 min a game.

you do realize that the guys who don't play in games still show up and have workouts before and AFTER games, right?  it's not, "well, crap...i didn't get to play today.  but hey, at least i get paid for doing nothing."

doesn't work that way...these guys are being worked out in individual sessions and 3-on-3 stuff and video sessions and weight training.  it's not a 2 hour a day job, but the committed ones find themselves going after it nearly non-stop.  i believe that's what doc is calling him out for...

larry bird said to be a great player you have to be SELF-determined...POB doesn't show this, and doc has noticed this.

If this were true completely and he was lazy as you say Doc wouldn't give him ANY time out on the floor, even in garbage time. It's not like it would hurt the team. Doc's comments are obviously meant to motivate the guy (as was KG's rant) , but are being way too overblown on here. Just because they are being repeated daily in this blog, doesn't mean that Doc keeps saying them over and over.

As far as his individual workouts before games there is no question that they get to see some of what he is doing, however I would argue that these workouts are the reason he is getting garbage minutes. You don't have anything stating that POB doesn't work hard in these. A couple comments throughout the whole year from Doc stating when asked about POB stating he needs to pick up his intensity, doesn't mean he thinks the guy is lazy or has no ability to turn into a solid backup.

Doc ha ssaid multiple times its an effort thing, no matter how many much you want to downplay it EJ. of course he's trying to motivate the kid, but that doesn't change the fact that media reports from GS and boston, coaches in Gs and boston, and now teamates in both GS and boston have gotten on him about effort.

As i said, he looked more into the game effort wise this last time (possably do to a D-leage call up getting a full quarter and him sitting until late, which would tick me off as well) and i hope he continues to do that.

But to try to dismiss all the reports about him, from multiple sources, on his effort level because you want to belive effort isn't his problem?

sorry bro, can't buy it. There's no giant conspiricy to discredit POB, first by nelson and now by doc. He's a young kid who has the talent but doesn't really get the fact that he has to bust his tail. Not really a hard attitude for me to belive out of a 20 year old.

Fair enough, but you are acting like Doc daily is bashing on POB. Nelson makes a comment or two about the kid after he gave up on him, and Doc has made a comment. Based on everyone's take on him you'd think it was a daily ritual by them. Show me the last time Doc said something about him, and explain why Doc gives him ANY minutes then. Danny also knew all about these comments from Nelson. The guy came in and was out of shape and struggled a bit in the workout, yet he STILL signed the guy. He obviously felt that he could play or develop into a solid guy. His minutes have shown that he has that upside. Asking for more to see what he can do isn't ridiculous. Especially when BBD just isn't that good.

As far as the conspiracy, there IS a big one on here trying to dump on him. Usually by the same guys constantly ripping Scal no matter how well he comes out and plays.

[crownsy]

why would a coach comment daily on his 12th man? They don't come up in media conversations much.

I think in this case, it is what it is. a 20 year old kid who dosne't get that he has to work hard to improve yet, but probaley will as time goes on and he grows up. Which makes sense doesn't it? when i was 20, i wasen't as driven as i am now either, because the year before i was a teenager.

ahhh young crownsy, i have so much to tell you about. to warn you about... like enjoy sophmore year more, the real world sucks in 2 more years...   

[Chris]

As far as the conspiracy, there IS a big one on here trying to dump on him. Usually by the same guys constantly ripping Scal no matter how well he comes out and plays.

By that definition, you are part of a conspiracy to tear down Davis.  Some of us have a different opinion on the guy than you do.  It doesn't make it a conspiracy, it just makes for good discussion.

[crownsy]

As far as the conspiracy, there IS a big one on here trying to dump on him. Usually by the same guys constantly ripping Scal no matter how well he comes out and plays.

By that definition, you are part of a conspiracy to tear down Davis.  Some of us have a different opinion on the guy than you do.  It doesn't make it a conspiracy, it just makes for good discussion.

TP4U