Author Topic: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason  (Read 18809 times)

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Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2009, 10:03:53 AM »

Offline JSD

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I absolutely agree.  No one can tell whether Walker, Giddens or even O'Bryant are ready to play at the NBA level, until they get some NBA playing time.  Until you give these guys a shot, how do they know?  Walkers two best traits are being tough and being athletic, seems like something that could help the second unit.  House, Baby, and Powe really aren't stellar athletes in my mind.  I'm not saying they are bad athletes, I just think Walker's athleticism can help the unit.


I am sorry, but POB is not in the same group as Walker and Giddens.  He has been in the NBA before this season.  He has had a good coach.  He just seems to be a non NBA player.

I'd say they are all in the same group, as all 3 are the same age. 1's and 5's take longer in the NBA to develop. He played for a good coach but Nelly's offense isn't conducive to his skill set. Give it some time... The C's aren't half way through the season and your calling him a bust? That's crazy. Is Pruitt a bust?

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2009, 12:58:19 PM »

Offline MBz

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I absolutely agree.  No one can tell whether Walker, Giddens or even O'Bryant are ready to play at the NBA level, until they get some NBA playing time.  Until you give these guys a shot, how do they know?  Walkers two best traits are being tough and being athletic, seems like something that could help the second unit.  House, Baby, and Powe really aren't stellar athletes in my mind.  I'm not saying they are bad athletes, I just think Walker's athleticism can help the unit.


I am sorry, but POB is not in the same group as Walker and Giddens.  He has been in the NBA before this season.  He has had a good coach.  He just seems to be a non NBA player.

I'd say they are all in the same group, as all 3 are the same age. 1's and 5's take longer in the NBA to develop. He played for a good coach but Nelly's offense isn't conducive to his skill set. Give it some time... The C's aren't half way through the season and your calling him a bust? That's crazy. Is Pruitt a bust?

Agreed, POB's game does not fit into Nelly's system which could be the reason for a difficult transition to the league.  Remember, he's only 22 years old.  Also, after last night I think Walker proved he can at least play minutes against the garbage squads for other teams.  Now I think Doc needs to give him a few minutes in the 2nd unit like how he worked Pruitt in.  Ultimately, it'll help keep Pierce and Allen's legs a little fresher.
do it

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2009, 02:10:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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To get back to the original question I have to say given what some contenders did this off season Ainge's was pretty bad but some other teams weren't much better.

Lakers - after resigning Ariza what did they really have to do. Their entire off season was predicated on getting Bynum healthy and being the difference. Mission accomplished in getting him healthy but I think the jury is still out on whether he's going to be a huge difference

Rockets - the Artest acquisition, the resigning of Landry, the signing of Brent Barry and the addition of Rick Adelman at the helm was an awesome off season.

Spurs - gotta like the fact that they brought in George Hill and Roger Mason. In doing so they added two very important and productive players into their 8-9 man rotation.

Cleveland - they resigned Delonte, brought in Mo Williams in a trade, and also two rookies with a ton of promise in Darnell Jackson and JJ Hickson. Excellent off season for this contender.

Phoenix - though some will claim that Mike D'Antoni not returning is reason alone to say that they had a bad off season, I disagree. D'Antoni is a brilliant coach with a unique system but thinking that system can win an NBA title is absurd. If they kept D'Antoni the Suns would never have won a title, so I think that's a positive move. Matt Barnes for the vet minimum and Robin Lopez in the draft were very good moves. Not a bad off season at all in my books.

New Orleans - if Boston had a bad off season by not signing James Posey than it must then be considered that adding James Posey to a WCF runner up that kept their team intact is a good thing. Add sniper Mo Peterson and I think the Hornets had a very productive and positive off season.

Orlando - I loved the Mikael Peitrus and Anthony Johnson moves for this club as both seem to fit into exactly what the Magic needed and the drafting of Courtney Lee was also a bit of a coup. Very good off season in my books.

Dallas - Rick Carlisle coming in as the new coach, for me, makes the off season a success right there as I think he's a much better coach than Avery Johnson. Resigning my 2nd favorite Northeastern Huskie basketball player of all-time, Jose Juan Barea was another very smart move as was the Brandon Bass addition. Diop and Green were dumb reaches but I think the good definitely outweighed the bad in Dallas.

I think the rest of the contenders all had bad off seasons but we will have to wait to see just how bad they were.

Boston - losing Posey was bad and it was couple with the resigning of Allen and House and the signing of POB. The draft is a wait and see but obviously nothing was expected this year from them anyway. So Ainge loaded the bench with a ton of one dimensional role players or projects. Bad moves. If he wasn't going to overwhelm Posey and get him signed right away then he should have passed on James altogether and restructured the bench with vets that had some versatility and experience. Just my opinion.

Utah - Kostas Koufos the only addition? Nuff said.

Detroit - they signed Kwame Brown as their main FA signing. Again, nuff said!

Anyway, that the way I see it.

Sorry Who. I respect your opinion and think you're one of the best posters on this site but in this regard, I think you are way off base.

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2009, 08:15:17 PM »

Offline Who

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Nickagneta,

You're talking solely about decisions instead of decisions and non-decisions. It's the non-decisions that are killing several of those teams (like Utah and Detroit).

These non-decisions are about opportunity. Teams that have opportunity (Utah) get judged harsher than teams who have limited opportunity (Boston). By opportunity we talk about their draft pick, their cap space and room to maneuver in free agency, and the trade assets they are able to part with.

Phoenix Suns

This was their last hurrah with Nash, Shaq, Grant Hill and Raja Bell. This was a team with a huge amount of flaws and they had to put everything on the line to fix them. They had no other choice ... and they did not do this.

In the draft I wanted to see them do one of two things (1) Draft a ready made contributor (2) Draft someone with high potential who can take a major role when as the Suns rebuild, so Amare has at least someone by his side.

Who do they draft? Robin Lopez. You can go down to the 35th pick in the draft with DeAndre Jordan and talk about guys with better potential. So he has to be ready to play right? No, not at all. This was a wasted opportunity.

Then the Suns go and make it worse in free agency. They say Robin Lopez is our backup center, our defensive presence, and that he's the right guy for the job. So they decide not to sign another backup big man and also decide to let Brian Skinner go. For those keeping score, Brian Skinner is a better player than Lopez and is out-performing him. Robin Lopez is one of the worst backup big men playing regular minutes in the NBA.

It isn't even a surprise that he's struggling. Lopez was outrebounded by DeAndre Jordan in college despite playing 25% more minutes ... yet he has a rep as rebounder and Jordan doesn't. Lopez is ready to play but Jordan isn't? Lopez will be a Varejao type because of his rebounding+defense and not because of his hair. This whole situation was off from the day they picked him up. How many 7 footers get drafted in the middle of the first round and can be a defense changing contributor big man off the bench for a contender? This had disaster written all over it back on draft day.

The Suns also decided to overpay Goran Dragic and pronounce him the answer to their backup point guard slot. Again failing to sign someone competent and again ignoring better options on the market in favour of Dragic. Well he played about 19 games and has been put on ice since because he's been a disaster and one of the worst backup guards in the league.

Then they choose to sign Matt Barnes. I have no idea why someone would think Matt Barnes is the answer to better defense but he absolutely has not been for Phoenix, in fact he's made them worse. That's why he was dropped from the starting lineup and why Phoenix's D has been playing better since that date. The Suns are 4.6 points better off with Barnes off the court defensively. By the way, Matt Barnes is having the best season of his career and he's still hurting the Suns.

It's not like this is new information with Barnes, he's been eaten alive defensively for most of his career. He's too slow on the perimeter and too small in the paint. He can't guard the three spot or the four spot, any spot for that matter. Barnes is simply a weak defender.

All of these items where clear back in the summer.

Let's go back to their defense because with Phoenix it's only about two things (1) Defense (2) Bench. They were a middle of the road defensive team with the worst pick and roll defense in the league. They had to improve here in order to be a legit contender. What improvements did they make? None. They brought in guys that made them worse. How about the bench, did they improve the bench? You mean by adding one of the worst backup guards and backup big men in the league? No. Barnes is a lateral move from Giricek.

This is a team with one final shot at a title and they blew it. This is why they're one of 6-9th best teams in the West and not a frontrunner for a title ... because their GM blew his summer.

The Phoenix Suns had an awful summer and it's cost them hugely. They had an awful summer without me even talking about Mike D'Antoni, and that was also an awful mistake.

Phoenix don't even have a chance to correct these mistakes (unlike a Utah Jazz who have several years ahead of them) so these mistakes are far more costly to them than most other contenders.

Anyway ..... It would take to long to go through each team.

Nickagneta, look at the teams where you say all they did was re-sign Kwame Brown or add Kosta Koufos ... the all they did part is the problematic area.

I believe the top six teams on my list all had substantially worse summers than the Celtics. I think the only way people fail to see that ... is if they don't spend enough time looking at those teams from their positions, what they needed, what they were able to do, and then what they ended up doing. I think once people do that they'll agree each of those teams had a far worse summer than Boston.

The seventh team on my list was the LA Lakers and I believe they're a judgement call. Personally I added them onto the list, and ahead of Boston, because I felt they could guaranteed themselves a title by trading Lamar Odom for a top small forward (as much as one can guarantee themselves a title in July).

I felt they missed an opportunity and as a consequence have allowed themselves to be overly vulnerable throughout this season. This team is a judgement call, and I find it perfectly understandable with those who disagree with the above point of view. Outside of this one element to the Lakers summer, they had an excellent offseason (limited opportunity outside of an Odom trade due to cap and draft)  .... I just feel this one element is important enough to override the rest.

Actually, now that I think of it, Phoenix was probably the longest. I should have picked someone else. Dang it!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 08:37:05 PM by Who »

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2009, 08:54:14 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Then they choose to sign Matt Barnes. I have no idea why someone would think Matt Barnes is the answer to better defense but he absolutely has not been for Phoenix, in fact he's made them worse. That's why he was dropped from the starting lineup and why Phoenix's D has been playing better since that date. The Suns are 4.6 points better off with Barnes off the court defensively. By the way, Matt Barnes is having the best season of his career and he's still hurting the Suns.

It's not like this is new information with Barnes, he's been eaten alive defensively for most of his career. He's too slow on the perimeter and too small in the paint. He can't guard the three spot or the four spot, any spot for that matter. Barnes is simply a weak defender.

There's an incredible fascination for Matt Barnes all around the world. But he's playing for the min. salary, and he offers more than that. He's hitting treys at a ridiculous percentage but once it regresses to the mean, he'll still be a better player than most min. salary guys. Signing him at that price wasn't bad; giving him such a big role wasn't the brightest idea.

Anyway, I believe the Spurs have absolutely had a better off-season than the C's. While I give the favouritism to the Lakers, I believe San Antonio is good enough to beat them: they have 3 brilliant players, 3 guys good enough defensively to throw at Kobe - Bowen, Mason and Ginobili, a combo of C/PFs - assuming Thomas is rested an in-shape during the playoffs and Booner doesn't regress from his current form - with enough versatility and size to control the Lakers bigs, and a decent backup to Parker who will play defense and won't hurt them.

I see your POV that teams like Utah (Koufos will never be more than a journeyman stiff, I think) or Dallas (although I don't see if they had better options than standing pad and preach that Kidd can find a way of fitting those other guys) had worse off-seasons than Boston, but the C's lost their 2 best players from the bench, including a very important 6th man and are yet to replace them. That's no small thing.

Also, perhaps many of those other teams didn't have the opportunities to improve - rather merely opportunities to change.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 09:18:46 PM by cordobes »

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2009, 08:54:30 PM »

Offline Jon

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I know this was discussed ad nauseum in another thread, but I still can't get over Ainge not signing Posey.  Yes, those who say that he'd be an absolute waste of money by the 4th or even 3rd year are dead right; however, you've got be drinking a whole lot of Kool-aid and wearing some pretty green tinted glasses to think that this team is going to be seriously contending in 3-4 years.

  Nowhere near as much kool-aid as you'd have been drinking 2 years ago to think we'd be contending now, let alone defending champions.


True.  But how often does lightning strike the same spot twice? 

That's about the shot we have of contending in 4 years.  Those odds don't justify not giving Posey an extension if there wasn't a suitable replacement.  Ainge may yet find one.  But even if he does, it seems a needless gamble given how small a window this team has to win it all. 

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2009, 11:20:22 PM »

Offline Who

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There's an incredible fascination for Matt Barnes all around the world. But he's playing for the min. salary, and he offers more than that. He's hitting treys at a ridiculous percentage but once it regresses to the mean, he'll still be a better player than most min. salary guys. Signing him at that price wasn't bad; giving him such a big role wasn't the brightest idea.
I agree and well said, especially the last line.

Maybe I've been too harsh on the Spurs' summer. I'll think about that one some more.

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2009, 06:19:12 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Than any other contending team?  I would think so.  Doc was on PTI yesterday and said that while teams like Cleveland and Orlando got better the Celtics didn't.  He also said that the Celtics are younger than they were last year, which is true.

I don't get it.  All they talked about after winning the championship last year was that they would have to get better in order to repeat, but instead they do absolutely nothing to improve the team and in fact made it worse!

Ainge and the owners stiffed the Big 3 by sticking them with young and inconsistent players rather than seasoned vets like last year.  They knew other teams would get better, yet did nothing to better themselves.

Like I said, I don't get it.  ???

nope, he did the best thing possible, keep almost the same exact team that won. Perk is now better, Rondo is better, and Ray Allen is better. thats what we added.

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2009, 07:20:52 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Who,

We obviously are looking at this from two completely different viewpoints. While you are looking in depth at where the team stood, what opportunities presented themselves to the team, what abilities that the team actually had in place to assist in moving the team forward and then finally what occurred, I am only looking at where they were and where they got to and who they added and subtracted to get there.

I feel my way of looking at things is a bit definitive while yours is a bit more speculative. You are looking at all the possibilities in tunnel vision without regard for the fact that all these teams were doing the same thing simultaneously. So while you are looking at the opportunities that a team should have taken and what presented itself I think you are forgetting that they are in a race and doing it as the same time as every other team. So certain things that you may seem to think are available become unavailable very quickly.

Carpe diem. They need to seize the opportunity at the time it presents itself. That's why I am judging the results only and not the entire process itself.


Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2009, 08:08:00 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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winning championships is about building upon the youth, not trading them away for old veterans EVERY year. we did that to get KG and Ray, not we develop our youth to grow around them.

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2009, 05:45:48 PM »

Offline Jon

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winning championships is about building upon the youth, not trading them away for old veterans EVERY year. we did that to get KG and Ray, not we develop our youth to grow around them.

The problem with that theory is that our Big Three is likely to old to do much building around.  By the time this "youth" really develops, they'll likely be too old to really carry a team. 


Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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winning championships is about building upon the youth, not trading them away for old veterans EVERY year. we did that to get KG and Ray, not we develop our youth to grow around them.

The problem with that theory is that our Big Three is likely to old to do much building around.  By the time this "youth" really develops, they'll likely be too old to really carry a team. 




Yep.  That's what you do with young stars. 


Not what you do with a title winning team. 

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2009, 06:26:56 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE UP A SCENARIO WHERE NOT SIGNING POSEY WORKS OUT FOR US? sorry bout the caps but there have been countless posts on this and people keep regurgitating the same stuff about "oh it woul have hamstrung us," oh it was too many years.." this started somewhere and people keep repeating it but i don't think i've ever heard anyone with a scenario.please. somebody.

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2009, 06:30:32 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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i'm the biggest danny ainge fan you will find too. this won't change anything either. the dude is my hero. but c'mon. will people that say "it was too many years say the same thing if we JUST miss winning the title? i would expect then a response that starts "well that sucks bigtime but at least we don't have posey's 7 mil..."  COME ON!

Re: Did Ainge Have the Worst Offseason
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2009, 06:33:12 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE UP A SCENARIO WHERE NOT SIGNING POSEY WORKS OUT FOR US? sorry bout the caps but there have been countless posts on this and people keep regurgitating the same stuff about "oh it woul have hamstrung us," oh it was too many years.." this started somewhere and people keep repeating it but i don't think i've ever heard anyone with a scenario.please. somebody.

We win the championship without Posey and didn't sacrifice much more of our future financial flexibility. How's that for a scenario that works for us?