You just saw the 2009 NBA Champions

[winsomme]

Anyone who thinks the current roster can win a title is in denial. Calling this "a little slump" makes about as much sense as expecting Gabe Pruitt to single-handedly turn this mess around.

This team isn't going to make it out of the Eastern Conference as constituted. Van Gundy gets a lot of unwarranted grief on this board, but he hit the nail on the head in the broadcast - Danny "didn't add anything" this summer.

This off-season was a disaster. We have no chips to move that anyone wants. And now we have a starting group that isn't giving a lick of defensive effort, a point who can't shoot, and absolutely zero help off the bench.

As the poster above stated, Cleveland has improved itself. The Celtics are worse. Markedly worse. And JJ Redick ain't gonna fix that. (Good Lord, what a thoroughly awful idea Redick is.)

hold on, we are only one player different than this time last season. Posey.

it begins and ends there. at least for this point in the season.

so if the lack of one player can have this dramatic a negative effect on a team, then it goes to show that the addition of one player could have the same beneficial effect.

This bench needs a spark. clearly. but to assume that there are somehow massive changes needed simply goes against the evidence. the only thing different with this team right now is no Posey. So, we need to try and replace him. as best we can.

like i've said, i would focus on shooting and go from there.

[EJPLAYA]

Anyone who thinks the current roster can win a title is in denial. Calling this "a little slump" makes about as much sense as expecting Gabe Pruitt to single-handedly turn this mess around.

This team isn't going to make it out of the Eastern Conference as constituted. Van Gundy gets a lot of unwarranted grief on this board, but he hit the nail on the head in the broadcast - Danny "didn't add anything" this summer.

This off-season was a disaster. We have no chips to move that anyone wants. And now we have a starting group that isn't giving a lick of defensive effort, a point who can't shoot, and absolutely zero help off the bench.

As the poster above stated, Cleveland has improved itself. The Celtics are worse. Markedly worse. And JJ Redick ain't gonna fix that. (Good Lord, what a thoroughly awful idea Redick is.)

hold on, we are only one player different than this time last season. Posey.

it begins and ends there. at least for this point in the season.

so if the lack of one player can have this dramatic a negative effect on a team, then it goes to show that the addition of one player could have the same beneficial effect.

This bench needs a spark. clearly. but to assume that there are somehow massive changes needed simply goes against the evidence. the only thing different with this team right now is no Posey. So, we need to try and replace him. as best we can.

like i've said, i would focus on shooting and go from there.

I agree with that thought, however what do we have in trade value to get such a player? Nothing really. If we did it would have already been made. What free agents out there do we have available to sign that are Posey-like? No one.

The issue with the shooter being all we need is that we have shooters. If that was all we needed why then when Ray plays with the second unit does he not magically go off for 10-12 points? Why doesn't House get the great looks and go off as well? Both of them are as good of shooters as you will find out there, but they can't do anything on that second unit. The reason is very simple. We don't have a PG who can get into the lane or past his defender to require someone else to rotate off the shooter. This means every look either one of them gets is contested and will go down with less frequency. Adding yet another shooter will not solve anything.

What we need is a PG that can do these things. Unfortunately I hate to admit it but the very best available option out there is Starbury if he is released. He can get in the paint and is a good mid range scoring threat. He can also kick out to a wide open House or Ray. Of course there are other points out there that can do the same on teams, but we really don't have the chips to trade for them.

[Rondo_is_better]

This is different from what you said initially. Initiall, you declared them champs. You didn't say that they should be the champs, you said they WOULD be.

You total exagerration of my point regarding an injury to LeBron makes it no less valid. If he gets hurt, they are done. There is always a chance of that happening, so they can't be declared champs with so much time to go before the finals.

Now you're just being ridiculous. Do you think that I meant that if the entire team wasn't able to play that they still would be champs?! You know that what I am saying is that the Cavs will be the champs. I stand by that comment. They look like we did last year. They have great defense and a great offense. You can throw hypothetical numbers out all you want, but that is the truth.
[/quote]

I'm not being ridiculous at all. I don't think you even understand what's going on. You keep talking about everyone getting in an bus crash, or the entire team going down with an injury, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm not assuming some catastrophic injury situation where all their good players go down, I'm saying there's a chance that LeBron goes down. Then, without LeBron, they have no shot at the championship.

If what you meant was that the Cavs will probably win if everything works out for them and they always play at their highest level and don't have to deal with any injuries, then you should have sad that. Not "You are looking at the 2009 NBA champions", as if it were garaunteed no matter what.

 I'm not being ridiculous or nitpicky. You initial point was they WILL win. Then I said they're the favorites, but you can't count everybody out just yet, because anything can happen. Then yada yada yada you attacked my numbers because you misinterpreted them, and then you called me ridiculous.

If you look at this whole argument in summary, I think its pretty clear that what you said initially was wrong, and that my point was completely valid, and that over time your point became "oh come on, you know what I MEANT. You know I MEANT to say favorite".

If that was your point, you should have made it in your original post.

[EJPLAYA]

Now you're just being ridiculous. Do you think that I meant that if the entire team wasn't able to play that they still would be champs?! You know that what I am saying is that the Cavs will be the champs. I stand by that comment. They look like we did last year. They have great defense and a great offense. You can throw hypothetical numbers out all you want, but that is the truth.
[/quote]

I'm not being ridiculous at all. I don't think you even understand what's going on. You keep talking about everyone getting in an bus crash, or the entire team going down with an injury, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm not assuming some catastrophic injury situation where all their good players go down, I'm saying there's a chance that LeBron goes down. Then, without LeBron, they have no shot at the championship.

If what you meant was that the Cavs will probably win if everything works out for them and they always play at their highest level and don't have to deal with any injuries, then you should have sad that. Not "You are looking at the 2009 NBA champions", as if it were garaunteed no matter what.

 I'm not being ridiculous or nitpicky. You initial point was they WILL win. Then I said they're the favorites, but you can't count everybody out just yet, because anything can happen. Then yada yada yada you attacked my numbers because you misinterpreted them, and then you called me ridiculous.

If you look at this whole argument in summary, I think its pretty clear that what you said initially was wrong, and that my point was completely valid, and that over time your point became "oh come on, you know what I MEANT. You know I MEANT to say favorite".

If that was your point, you should have made it in your original post.
[/quote]




My dad can beat up your dad...

Come on dude. Stop being juvenile. No one in the entire world thinks that if Lebron was injured and out that the Cavs would win the championship. Should I also follow up the NBA Championship part with "you know, that title the winners of the NBA playoffs get if they beat everyone" since you seem to need the obvious stated with all my comments.

You never once said that they have a 60% chance to beat them as is. You made that up after I challenged your faulty numbers. You stated 35-40% chance of beating them in a series.

You are also bagging on me for speculating when you are just making stuff up out of thin air (these percentages) and then expecting that to be just automatically considered valid. Yet me stating that I thought that the Cavs showed last night why they will be the champs this year is somehow wild notions. There isn't a single person that can watch how deep that Cavs team is, realizing they were playing with out Z, have the ability to pick up Joe Smith better than anyone if he is released, and most importantly have the best player in the NBA who no one out there has someone to match up on him, can honestly say they aren't the team to beat.

Stop with the mincing of words, twisting of comments, and ridiculous exaggerations. That doesn't help anything.

[winsomme]

Anyone who thinks the current roster can win a title is in denial. Calling this "a little slump" makes about as much sense as expecting Gabe Pruitt to single-handedly turn this mess around.

This team isn't going to make it out of the Eastern Conference as constituted. Van Gundy gets a lot of unwarranted grief on this board, but he hit the nail on the head in the broadcast - Danny "didn't add anything" this summer.

This off-season was a disaster. We have no chips to move that anyone wants. And now we have a starting group that isn't giving a lick of defensive effort, a point who can't shoot, and absolutely zero help off the bench.

As the poster above stated, Cleveland has improved itself. The Celtics are worse. Markedly worse. And JJ Redick ain't gonna fix that. (Good Lord, what a thoroughly awful idea Redick is.)

hold on, we are only one player different than this time last season. Posey.

it begins and ends there. at least for this point in the season.

so if the lack of one player can have this dramatic a negative effect on a team, then it goes to show that the addition of one player could have the same beneficial effect.

This bench needs a spark. clearly. but to assume that there are somehow massive changes needed simply goes against the evidence. the only thing different with this team right now is no Posey. So, we need to try and replace him. as best we can.

like i've said, i would focus on shooting and go from there.

I agree with that thought, however what do we have in trade value to get such a player? Nothing really. If we did it would have already been made. What free agents out there do we have available to sign that are Posey-like? No one.

The issue with the shooter being all we need is that we have shooters. If that was all we needed why then when Ray plays with the second unit does he not magically go off for 10-12 points? Why doesn't House get the great looks and go off as well? Both of them are as good of shooters as you will find out there, but they can't do anything on that second unit. The reason is very simple. We don't have a PG who can get into the lane or past his defender to require someone else to rotate off the shooter. This means every look either one of them gets is contested and will go down with less frequency. Adding yet another shooter will not solve anything.

What we need is a PG that can do these things. Unfortunately I hate to admit it but the very best available option out there is Starbury if he is released. He can get in the paint and is a good mid range scoring threat. He can also kick out to a wide open House or Ray. Of course there are other points out there that can do the same on teams, but we really don't have the chips to trade for them.

we don't have a shooter with size that can help to spread the floor and take another players defender away from the basket...Eddie and Ray did go off last year. that's the thing....our bench last year almost always held serve and sometimes even made gains...

and on the PG thing, again Eddie was fine last year....in fact it was going back to him in the playoffs that was a boost to the team....

i agree that nobody is biting on any chips that we have and that is why i argue for giving PT time to Pruitt, Giddens and Walker....they need to be seen....

[Rondo_is_better]

Now you're just being ridiculous. Do you think that I meant that if the entire team wasn't able to play that they still would be champs?! You know that what I am saying is that the Cavs will be the champs. I stand by that comment. They look like we did last year. They have great defense and a great offense. You can throw hypothetical numbers out all you want, but that is the truth.

I'm not being ridiculous at all. I don't think you even understand what's going on. You keep talking about everyone getting in an bus crash, or the entire team going down with an injury, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm not assuming some catastrophic injury situation where all their good players go down, I'm saying there's a chance that LeBron goes down. Then, without LeBron, they have no shot at the championship.

If what you meant was that the Cavs will probably win if everything works out for them and they always play at their highest level and don't have to deal with any injuries, then you should have sad that. Not "You are looking at the 2009 NBA champions", as if it were garaunteed no matter what.

 I'm not being ridiculous or nitpicky. You initial point was they WILL win. Then I said they're the favorites, but you can't count everybody out just yet, because anything can happen. Then yada yada yada you attacked my numbers because you misinterpreted them, and then you called me ridiculous.

If you look at this whole argument in summary, I think its pretty clear that what you said initially was wrong, and that my point was completely valid, and that over time your point became "oh come on, you know what I MEANT. You know I MEANT to say favorite".

If that was your point, you should have made it in your original post.
[/quote]




My dad can beat up your dad...

Come on dude. Stop being juvenile. No one in the entire world thinks that if Lebron was injured and out that the Cavs would win the championship. Should I also follow up the NBA Championship part with "you know, that title the winners of the NBA playoffs get if they beat everyone" since you seem to need the obvious stated with all my comments.

You never once said that they have a 60% chance to beat them as is. You made that up after I challenged your faulty numbers. You stated 35-40% chance of beating them in a series.

You are also bagging on me for speculating when you are just making stuff up out of thin air (these percentages) and then expecting that to be just automatically considered valid. Yet me stating that I thought that the Cavs showed last night why they will be the champs this year is somehow wild notions. There isn't a single person that can watch how deep that Cavs team is, realizing they were playing with out Z, have the ability to pick up Joe Smith better than anyone if he is released, and most importantly have the best player in the NBA who no one out there has someone to match up on him, can honestly say they aren't the team to beat.

Stop with the mincing of words, twisting of comments, and ridiculous exaggerations. That doesn't help anything.
[/quote]


Come on dude. Stop being juvenile. No one in the entire world thinks that if Lebron was injured and out that the Cavs would win the championship.

Right, exactly. That's why you can't declare them champs in January. He could get injured. That chance is fairly low, so I still think the Cavs are the favorite.


You never once said that they have a 60% chance to beat them as is. You made that up after I challenged your faulty numbers. You stated 35-40% chance of beating them in a series.

I think they have a 60% chance of winning the title. THAT is what the 60% relates to. Not our chance to beat them. Their chance to avoid injury and beat every team.


You are also bagging on me for speculating when you are just making stuff up out of thin air (these percentages) and then expecting that to be just automatically considered valid.

You WEREN'T speculating. You were declaring them champs. I AM speculating, saying that there are chances for them to win and lose. To speculate, you must leave a margin for error. What you did left no room for error, so it was a declaration.

Since I was speculating, my percentages are fair, level-headed estimates. Your 100% chance declaration is not. Generally, extreme percentages are bogus. That's why I'm attacking your declaration.

Yet me stating that I thought that the Cavs showed last night why they will be the champs this year is somehow wild notions.

If only that was what you had said originally. You didn't say "they showed me the stuff". You said, "they showed me the stuff, lets pack up and go home because its over".

They showed me the stuff too. My only points are these:

1. It is January. There is too much time left in the season for things to change, so you can't call them champs yet.

2. Any team can win a playoff series with an inspired effort. There are plenty of good teams in the eastern conference that could knock the Cavs off if given the opportunity. ATL, ORL, and BOS come to mind immediately. Therefore, since the Cavs will play 1 or 2 series against those teams, they might just lose before the finals. 

Should I also follow up the NBA Championship part with "you know, that title the winners of the NBA playoffs get if they beat everyone"

That statement right there shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the point I just made above.

[cordobes]

Not to especially call you out EJ Playa (I agree that the Cavs have an outstanding team after the addition of Mo Willians and I've been saying since the start of the season that I don't like how we matchup with them as currently constructed a little bit), but this kind of threads (Fire Doc! Trade Ray! We're done! We can't beat X!) will look as foolish in a few months as the "We're better than last year", "Tony Allen >>> Posey", "All our youngster are SO MUCH BETTER!", "Perkins an All-Star?", "Walker, Giddens are lottery talent!" threads look now.

Things are a lot closer than you're assuming.

[teddykgb]

do people really think we win that game last night with james posey playing?

Posey really didn't help that much against Lebron last year, in fact he (like just about anyone) struggled to guard him. Pierce ended up being the most effective.  I'd say posey's best contribution against lebron was that he might have made lebron more hesitant to drive due to possible offensive foul calls.

Cleveland's offense is very different this season, and they're much better for it.  Cleveland used to use Lebron at the top of the key a lot, which was a complete waste for them because it let the defense set against them.  They came out opening night and took it to us early with a high motion offense, and really we only won when we slowed them down and got them back into some bad habits.  When they're moving the ball and getting lebron the ball on the move off of picks, it's nearly impossible to stop him from getting to the rim, he's too big and strong.  They're a very good team, and they're only getting better and better.  They were ridiculously hot last night, and that helped, and I wish Anderson Varejao were called for a foul now and again, but they're a very legit team and absolutely might beat us in a playoff series, it probably comes down to whether they trust their offense and run their sets or fall back into lebron on 5 guys.

As far as our team, I really think the loss of posey is being overblown.  i'm not sure what Danny could have done this summer to shore up our roster, if anything his only mistake was relying on Tony Allen to become a useful player when it has been plainly obvious for years that he's incapable of thinking the game through and being counted upon.

[QuinielaBox]

While, I agree that it maybe Cleveland's time to shine in 2009.

This is January.... Teams evolve in February and March because of trading deadline deals. Did anybody think before the Pau Gasol giveaway to the Lakers by dear old friend Chris Wallace that we would be playing the Lakers in the finals last year? (I was thinking San Antonio, Phoenix or even Utah). 

Danny Ainge could get an opportunity to pick up a FA bought out (not Stiffbury I hope) and Doc always could put Cassell (Sam not Matt) on the court. The Celtics also have not played JR Walker and Bill Giddens or POB. If the GM's around the league are not interested in Boston's spare parts, why not play the rookies and build up trade value?   

[EJPLAYA]

Not to especially call you out EJ Playa (I agree that the Cavs have an outstanding team after the addition of Mo Willians and I've been saying since the start of the season that I don't like how we matchup with them as currently constructed a little bit), but this kind of threads (Fire Doc! Trade Ray! We're done! We can't beat X!) will look as foolish in a few months as the "We're better than last year", "Tony Allen >>> Posey", "All our youngster are SO MUCH BETTER!", "Perkins an All-Star?", "Walker, Giddens are lottery talent!" threads look now.

Things are a lot closer than you're assuming.

I don't look at it as calling me out. I sure hope you're right. The facts don't back it up though. They have a better deeper team than we do. They improved and we didn't they play hard physical defense and we no longer do. They are young and we are tired. What is exactly going to change between now and the playoffs without a major shakeup? Here's what:

Z will come back - They will get better
Sideshow Bob will go back to the second unit - They will get better
Mo Williams will get more comfortable with the team - They will get better

That's my point.

[cordobes]

They're playing very well, we're playing atrociously - you'll seem some regression to the mean. Our 3rd best player is still better than their 2nd best player. Didn't we beat them just a couple of months ago?

I think our chances of beating them are very slim without more size and quality at the wing and at the post. But this I've been saying since the off-season. Bring Mutombo (sigh) and Delfino to this roster and it's a 50/50 series.

[Dirk]

Man, it was ONE game against us and now they are the new champs?

There are tons of games to play yet for every team and believe me the Cavs ARE going to get into some kind of slump at some point during the season. Like when the Cs had their own after the all star break last season on the west coast trip. Maybe not as bad as our current slide, but they will get their share of losses, especially considering their easy schedule so far at home. The have yet to face good teams other than the Celtics.

Anyone knows the average winning % of the teams who have played the Cavs in Cleveland this season as of today? I will give you that number, it's .444 over 19 games played. Before playing us, it was a low .426 over 18 games played at home. Opponents winning % that have played the Celtics @ Boston so far this season? .514 . Yes, it's true. That's what I call a pretty good schedule to begin the season at home. Let's just wait until they play some better teams at home and see how they keep their home streak alive. OK, so what about the overall picture of teams who the Cavs and Celts have played against so far. Overall winning % of the teams the Celts have played against so far (home and away games together) is .480. For the Cavs, that same number is .462. What am I trying to say? That the Cavs have had a veeery easy schedule so far, especially at home, backed up with real numbers.

Just to add a little bit to it: We have played against 15 teams with >.500 records with 9 of them played in Boston and 6 away. The Cavs have played against 13 teams with >.500 records with 6 of them played in Cleveland and 7 away. 5 of their 6 losses of the season have come against winning teams on the road. They have only beaten TWO winning teams on the road the entire season and are 2-5 (dallas and denver). Some people need to read that again. The celts are 3-3 on games played away against >.500 teams  (wins agains houston detroit and atlanta)

The Cavs are a really good team, but their record right now is a little bit too high. It's going down.

Right now we stand 1.5 games behind the Cavs. Yes, 1.5. Is that waay too much that they already have home court advantage over us? With less than half the games of the season played so far? Things can change pretty fast over the season. Why are people focusing only on the present? Of course everyone knows this team is playing really bad right now. But think about this. Go back 2 weeks from now and tell me who the most probable champs were in people minds. Answer: The Celtics. Now, before our huge streak, who was the new NBA champs? Yes, the Lakers. Those Lakers who fooled everyone for a few games that they were going to play defense for the first time ever. Err yeah, that was funny.

See what I mean? People need to stop focusing ONLY on our current and present state of play. Look at the big picture. This team who has lost 7 out of 10 is exactly the same who won 19 in a row. We can solve our problems. We don't have any serious injuries that I'm aware of - TA has not precisely being a boost for us and he is the only one facing a minor injury right now). Focus, passion, confidence, mental stress... those are the kind of stuff we are missing or having trouble with right now, but this team is still the same group of guys who have the ability to beat anyone in this league and go 19 in a row. You can argue age may be a factor. Yes, it could already be a factor and it will certainly be one in the future, but are you telling me that two weeks ago it was not a factor and now one of a sudden it is? ugh....

I'm not in a state of denial about the Cavs virtues. They ARE playing really good. LBJ IS playing at his best ever, and their offense now finally exists and can be provided by others not named The King. But, they still depend immensely on only ONE player. We can count on more than one to provide some extraordinary stuff to win playoffs games. These two teams will most probably go to seven game in the playoffs and either one of them can win it. That has not changed so far for me. It has been like that the entire season.

Have a little patience everyone.

[housecall]

Man, it was ONE game against us and now they are the new champs?

There are tons of games to play yet for every team and believe me the Cavs ARE going to get into some kind of slump at some point during the season. Like when the Cs had their own after the all star break last season on the west coast trip. Maybe not as bad as our current slide, but they will get their share of losses, especially considering their easy schedule so far at home. The have yet to face good teams other than the Celtics.

Anyone knows the average winning % of the teams who have played the Cavs in Cleveland this season as of today? I will give you that number, it's .444 over 19 games played. Before playing us, it was a low .426 over 18 games played at home. Opponents winning % that have played the Celtics @ Boston so far this season? .514 . Yes, it's true. That's what I call a pretty good schedule to begin the season at home. Let's just wait until they play some better teams at home and see how they keep their home streak alive. OK, so what about the overall picture of teams who the Cavs and Celts have played against so far. Overall winning % of the teams the Celts have played against so far (home and away games together) is .480. For the Cavs, that same number is .462. What am I trying to say? That the Cavs have had a veeery easy schedule so far, especially at home, backed up with real numbers.

Just to add a little bit to it: We have played against 15 teams with >.500 records with 9 of them played in Boston and 6 away. The Cavs have played against 13 teams with >.500 records with 6 of them played in Cleveland and 7 away. 5 of their 6 losses of the season have come against winning teams on the road. They have only beaten TWO winning teams on the road the entire season and are 2-5 (dallas and denver). Some people need to read that again. The celts are 3-3 on games played away against >.500 teams  (wins agains houston detroit and atlanta)

The Cavs are a really good team, but their record right now is a little bit too high. It's going down.

Right now we stand 1.5 games behind the Cavs. Yes, 1.5. Is that waay too much that they already have home court advantage over us? With less than half the games of the season played so far? Things can change pretty fast over the season. Why are people focusing only on the present? Of course everyone knows this team is playing really bad right now. But think about this. Go back 2 weeks from now and tell me who the most probable champs were in people minds. Answer: The Celtics. Now, before our huge streak, who was the new NBA champs? Yes, the Lakers. Those Lakers who fooled everyone for a few games that they were going to play defense for the first time ever. Err yeah, that was funny.

See what I mean? People need to stop focusing ONLY on our current and present state of play. Look at the big picture. This team who has lost 7 out of 10 is exactly the same who won 19 in a row. We can solve our problems. We don't have any serious injuries that I'm aware of - TA has not precisely being a boost for us and he is the only one facing a minor injury right now). Focus, passion, confidence, mental stress... those are the kind of stuff we are missing or having trouble with right now, but this team is still the same group of guys who have the ability to beat anyone in this league and go 19 in a row. You can argue age may be a factor. Yes, it could already be a factor and it will certainly be one in the future, but are you telling me that two weeks ago it was not a factor and now one of a sudden it is? ugh....

I'm not in a state of denial about the Cavs virtues. They ARE playing really good. LBJ IS playing at his best ever, and their offense now finally exists and can be provided by others not named The King. But, they still depend immensely on only ONE player. We can count on more than one to provide some extraordinary stuff to win playoffs games. These two teams will most probably go to seven game in the playoffs and either one of them can win it. That has not changed so far for me. It has been like that the entire season.

Have a little patience everyone.

Agree with you on a lot of it...tp.

[winsomme]

Not to especially call you out EJ Playa (I agree that the Cavs have an outstanding team after the addition of Mo Willians and I've been saying since the start of the season that I don't like how we matchup with them as currently constructed a little bit), but this kind of threads (Fire Doc! Trade Ray! We're done! We can't beat X!) will look as foolish in a few months as the "We're better than last year", "Tony Allen >>> Posey", "All our youngster are SO MUCH BETTER!", "Perkins an All-Star?", "Walker, Giddens are lottery talent!" threads look now.

Things are a lot closer than you're assuming.

I don't look at it as calling me out. I sure hope you're right. The facts don't back it up though. They have a better deeper team than we do. They improved and we didn't they play hard physical defense and we no longer do. They are young and we are tired. What is exactly going to change between now and the playoffs without a major shakeup? Here's what:

Z will come back - They will get better
Sideshow Bob will go back to the second unit - They will get better
Mo Williams will get more comfortable with the team - They will get better

That's my point.

so you think that the Cs are going to play this poorly the rest of the season....?

[Redz]

If lebron is playing like that they're going to be really tough to beat...He was pretty ridiculously good last night