KG Schooling Patty

[Chris]

I think if POB could limit his mistakes and improve his defensive rotations enough to earn playing time, he would be far more of an impact player than Big Baby.  He would rebound more, score more, and obviously block more shots.

And I think if Gerald Green had learned to limit his mistakes and learn the defensive rotations he would have been a hell of a player as well...

[footey]

Nick,

You have pretty strongly negative views of a player who has barely played any minutes this year, and when he does play, shows hustle at both ends of the floor, and tantalizes us with some pretty athletic capabilities, including shot blocking and rebounding on the defensive end.  Forget what you think Doc thinks about him, or what Don Nelson or Chris Mullin thought about him.  If you were to judge him for what he has done on the floor this season so far, it does not comport with your strongly negative view of him.  Consider this the next few times you watch him play. I am not saying he is the second coming of KG, or even Andrew Bynum. But judge based upon what you observe in games he plays for us, including whether he is hustling out there (my eyes certainly see a guy who is exerting alot of effort, and not trying to take it easy).

Happy New Year,
Footey

[nickagneta]

Nick,

You have pretty strongly negative views of a player who has barely played any minutes this year, and when he does play, shows hustle at both ends of the floor, and tantalizes us with some pretty athletic capabilities, including shot blocking and rebounding on the defensive end.  Forget what you think Doc thinks about him, or what Don Nelson or Chris Mullin thought about him.  If you were to judge him for what he has done on the floor this season so far, it does not comport with your strongly negative view of him.  Consider this the next few times you watch him play. I am not saying he is the second coming of KG, or even Andrew Bynum. But judge based upon what you observe in games he plays for us, including whether he is hustling out there (my eyes certainly see a guy who is exerting alot of effort, and not trying to take it easy).

Happy New Year,
Footey

Gee, I see a guy who is usually playing against the worst players on the worst teams because he only plays in blowouts. I see a guy that constantly is missing rotations and is a bad one on one defender. I see a guy that gets moved around on the block by much smaller players. I see a guy that gets his stats because he is usually 6-12 inches longer overall than the dregs of the league he is usually playing against. I see a guy that does a lot of weakside shot blocking and has trouble blocking the shot of a guy who puts a move on him. I see a guy with very mediocre hands, bad footwork, bad boxing out skills, who has a very thin, high base who has a slow first step.

Am I missing something? Oh yeah, he hustles. Well, at least recently.

[Finkelskyhook]

I think if POB could limit his mistakes and improve his defensive rotations enough to earn playing time, he would be far more of an impact player than Big Baby.  He would rebound more, score more, and obviously block more shots.

And I think if Gerald Green had learned to limit his mistakes and learn the defensive rotations he would have been a hell of a player as well...

The difference between Green and O'Bryant is that Green had no professional coaching his first two seasons and O'Bryant has plenty.  There were no defensive rotations for Gerald to learn.  Apparently he wasn't aimlessly chasing and blitzing as well as his teammates.....Well, he sure as hell was doing it better than the team's best player.

Beyond that, we won't know anything about O'Bryant until after the all-star game when he will either be playing some or be cut.

It is also unfair to expect him to be PJB in his third season (with limited playing time).

That is true, Gar.  Based on the posters in this thread, after Garnett's magical tuteledge, O'Bryant should be a hybrid of Russell, Garnett, Cowens, and Robinson.  If he only spent more time in the weight room, he could be the second coming of Wilt.

.....if he only hustled....
  Geez

 

[footey]

"Gee, I see a guy who is usually playing against the worst players on the worst teams because he only plays in blowouts."  While that is true, it is not a criticism. Surely you are not blaming POB for being matched against the worst players.

"I see a guy that constantly is missing rotations and is a bad one on one defender".  Really? Constantly? I don't see this. And even if true, which I don't concede, rotating on defense is the hardest thing to do on the court. It took Powe an entire season and a half to figure it out, sort of. I don't see you getting so heavy on him.

"I see a guy that gets moved around on the block by much smaller players".  Greg Oden is the only guy who moved him around. Newsflash: Greg Oden is not a smaller player. Just ask Perk, who got pretty abused by him last time they played.

"I see a guy that gets his stats because he is usually 6-12 inches longer overall than the dregs of the league he is usually playing against".  So let me get this straight: POB is a terrible player because he is 6-12 inches taller than the other guys, and we don't want that. Huh??

"I see a guy that does a lot of weakside shot blocking and has trouble blocking the shot of a guy who puts a move on him".  Well, you can't argue that he does not block alot of shots (that would be ridiculous), so I guess you're stuck with saying he only blocks from the weak side. Shame on you, Patrick!!! Bad shot blocker!!!

"I see a guy with very mediocre hands, bad footwork, bad boxing out skills, who has a very thin, high base who has a slow first step".  Did anyone besides me see POB make an incredible nifty save on the baseline last game, showing quick feet and balance becoming of a six footer, not a seven footer? Does anyone (besides Nick, who seems to be fast-forwarding through these moments) see POB as far more athletic than Perk, and longer? I'm not saying he is now better than Perk, I am addressing Nick's assertion that POB is not athletic.  I just don't see where Nick is coming from on this stuff.

 

[Chief]

"Gee, I see a guy who is usually playing against the worst players on the worst teams because he only plays in blowouts."  While that is true, it is not a criticism. Surely you are not blaming POB for being matched against the worst players.

"I see a guy that constantly is missing rotations and is a bad one on one defender".  Really? Constantly? I don't see this. And even if true, which I don't concede, rotating on defense is the hardest thing to do on the court. It took Powe an entire season and a half to figure it out, sort of. I don't see you getting so heavy on him.

"I see a guy that gets moved around on the block by much smaller players".  Greg Oden is the only guy who moved him around. Newsflash: Greg Oden is not a smaller player. Just ask Perk, who got pretty abused by him last time they played.

"I see a guy that gets his stats because he is usually 6-12 inches longer overall than the dregs of the league he is usually playing against".  So let me get this straight: POB is a terrible player because he is 6-12 inches taller than the other guys, and we don't want that. Huh??

"I see a guy that does a lot of weakside shot blocking and has trouble blocking the shot of a guy who puts a move on him".  Well, you can't argue that he does not block alot of shots (that would be ridiculous), so I guess you're stuck with saying he only blocks from the weak side. Shame on you, Patrick!!! Bad shot blocker!!!

"I see a guy with very mediocre hands, bad footwork, bad boxing out skills, who has a very thin, high base who has a slow first step".  Did anyone besides me see POB make an incredible nifty save on the baseline last game, showing quick feet and balance becoming of a six footer, not a seven footer? Does anyone (besides Nick, who seems to be fast-forwarding through these moments) see POB as far more athletic than Perk, and longer? I'm not saying he is now better than Perk, I am addressing Nick's assertion that POB is not athletic.  I just don't see where Nick is coming from on this stuff.

 

TP for you. Nice points. I too, think he should get some minutes. Right now, I'd prefer to see him over Big Baby. As far as him being athletic, I'd say he's average. Reminds me of Manute Bol.

[JBcat]

I think Tommy made some good points during the last game.   He is only 22 with a good frame and in about 2 or 3 years he will fit out decently.   For now though I think the answer lies somewhere inbetween Footey's and Nick's comments.  Yes POB got pushed around pretty handily by Greg Oden and may be the only player I can recall doing that.  However in the playoffs when it gets more physical and say Perk gets in foul trouble I wouldn't feel confident using POB against the likes of Dwight Howard, Rasheed Wallace, Big Z, Yao Ming, the Lakers bigs, and basically against the best teams in the league.  I would feel better about getting another vet big guy for the stretch run and stash away POB for another year or 2 while he works on his game/body.  Who knows maybe Doc and Danny really believe he can us by the end of year (we are not even half way through the season) but I don't see it quite yet.   

[xmuscularghandix]

i think dumping off POB to sign some overaged mediocre big man is a mistake. this is a kid that could develop into a real good player, like Tommy said he needs to fill out. i think that he needs to be thrown in the game and if he picks up fouls so be it, BBD is a foul machine so whats the difference?

[CoachBo]

Nick,

You have pretty strongly negative views of a player who has barely played any minutes this year, and when he does play, shows hustle at both ends of the floor, and tantalizes us with some pretty athletic capabilities, including shot blocking and rebounding on the defensive end.  Forget what you think Doc thinks about him, or what Don Nelson or Chris Mullin thought about him.  If you were to judge him for what he has done on the floor this season so far, it does not comport with your strongly negative view of him.  Consider this the next few times you watch him play. I am not saying he is the second coming of KG, or even Andrew Bynum. But judge based upon what you observe in games he plays for us, including whether he is hustling out there (my eyes certainly see a guy who is exerting alot of effort, and not trying to take it easy).

Happy New Year,
Footey

Gee, I see a guy who is usually playing against the worst players on the worst teams because he only plays in blowouts. I see a guy that constantly is missing rotations and is a bad one on one defender. I see a guy that gets moved around on the block by much smaller players. I see a guy that gets his stats because he is usually 6-12 inches longer overall than the dregs of the league he is usually playing against. I see a guy that does a lot of weakside shot blocking and has trouble blocking the shot of a guy who puts a move on him. I see a guy with very mediocre hands, bad footwork, bad boxing out skills, who has a very thin, high base who has a slow first step.

Am I missing something? Oh yeah, he hustles. Well, at least recently.

Pretty accurate assessment, Nick, and a nice try against the revisionists.

Paddy should be cut. Now.

[billysan]

Paddy should be cut. Now.

Or play him a little and erase all doubt. Then when he is cut there can be nothing but the truth. As long as he doesnt see the floor, the speculators will be free to say "what if?". We dont need a big stiff to take 6 fouls warming the bench, we already have Scalabrine. It would only take a few minutes per game to end this discussion.

[nickagneta]

Nick,

You have pretty strongly negative views of a player who has barely played any minutes this year, and when he does play, shows hustle at both ends of the floor, and tantalizes us with some pretty athletic capabilities, including shot blocking and rebounding on the defensive end.  Forget what you think Doc thinks about him, or what Don Nelson or Chris Mullin thought about him.  If you were to judge him for what he has done on the floor this season so far, it does not comport with your strongly negative view of him.  Consider this the next few times you watch him play. I am not saying he is the second coming of KG, or even Andrew Bynum. But judge based upon what you observe in games he plays for us, including whether he is hustling out there (my eyes certainly see a guy who is exerting alot of effort, and not trying to take it easy).

Happy New Year,
Footey

Gee, I see a guy who is usually playing against the worst players on the worst teams because he only plays in blowouts. I see a guy that constantly is missing rotations and is a bad one on one defender. I see a guy that gets moved around on the block by much smaller players. I see a guy that gets his stats because he is usually 6-12 inches longer overall than the dregs of the league he is usually playing against. I see a guy that does a lot of weakside shot blocking and has trouble blocking the shot of a guy who puts a move on him. I see a guy with very mediocre hands, bad footwork, bad boxing out skills, who has a very thin, high base who has a slow first step.

Am I missing something? Oh yeah, he hustles. Well, at least recently.

Pretty accurate assessment, Nick, and a nice try against the revisionists.

Paddy should be cut. Now.

Thanks Coach. I guess we're the only two that sees that he doesn't get into a wide base defensive crouch and have good side to side movement. We're the only ones that see POB standing tall on defense hoping to block every shot rather than digging in and not giving position. I guess others don't see that instead of boxing out by putting his backside on a player and pushing into him with both legs while boxing him in behind you with your arms held back that POB instead uses one leg and his side and shoulder to box out. I guess people don't see that's why he can be moved around by smaller players and that if he played the elite or even good second teamers that he would be out positioned and moved around quite easily and not rebound nearly as well. I guess most think a slow stutter step on the low post move is the right one instead of the fast powerful and decisive first step you like to see out of low post offensive players.

But he has a nice 18 footer, admittedly. He runs the floor okay(he should he's a heck of a lot lighter than most 7 footers). And he has confidence to take a shot, which is great.

But his defense, bad hands and fundamentals are bad and a lot of that is really to late to instill in a player at this point. If you don't have those things looking pretty good by his age, the big guys usually never will.

But, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe I look at what he does differently than some but I want great fundamentals and defensive and rebounding presences from my big men. I don't think he has that.

[EJPLAYA]

But, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe I look at what he does differently than some but I want great fundamentals and defensive and rebounding presences from my big men. I don't think he has that.
[/quote]

And neither does BBD.

[Chris]

But, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe I look at what he does differently than some but I want great fundamentals and defensive and rebounding presences from my big men. I don't think he has that.

And neither does BBD.

That is absolutely incorrect.  Although BBD may not grab a ton of rebounds, he has excellent fundamentals, and always blocks out his man.  Believe me, if BBD didn't have tremendous defensive fundamentals, he would not be seeing the floor at all right now.

[EJPLAYA]

But, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe I look at what he does differently than some but I want great fundamentals and defensive and rebounding presences from my big men. I don't think he has that.

And neither does BBD.

That is absolutely incorrect.  Although BBD may not grab a ton of rebounds, he has excellent fundamentals, and always blocks out his man.  Believe me, if BBD didn't have tremendous defensive fundamentals, he would not be seeing the floor at all right now.

I don't think it is that cut and dry, because the guy averages 3 boards a game. Powe, who is also undersized averages 4 in one less minute a game. Those aren't great numbers for Baby. Considering POB averages 1.5 in only 4 minutes vs. BBD's 3 in 16 minutes it doesn't speak too well for BBD. Even when he gets a board down there on the offensive end he is about a 10% chance to put it back in. Usually he gets blocked or misses wildly. That doesn't do our team any good. As far as rotating, the guy does a better job than POB, but he commits a lot of silly fouls rotating late and out of control. The only time I think that he is a solid defender is when his man is trying to back him down. He holds his position very well. I am by no means saying that he is a BAD defender. Adequate is about as much as I would give him and that isn't Nick's  proper desire to have a GREAT fundamental, defensive, and rebounding presence. However if a player had that he wouldn't be a backup on the bench now, would he?

-edit:I just fixed the quotes - Chris

[Chris]

But, that's just one man's opinion. Maybe I look at what he does differently than some but I want great fundamentals and defensive and rebounding presences from my big men. I don't think he has that.

And neither does BBD.

That is absolutely incorrect.  Although BBD may not grab a ton of rebounds, he has excellent fundamentals, and always blocks out his man.  Believe me, if BBD didn't have tremendous defensive fundamentals, he would not be seeing the floor at all right now.

I don't think it is that cut and dry, because the guy averages 3 boards a game. Powe, who is also undersized averages 4 in one less minute a game. Those aren't great numbers for Baby. Considering POB averages 1.5 in only 4 minutes vs. BBD's 3 in 16 minutes it doesn't speak too well for BBD. Even when he gets a board down there on the offensive end he is about a 10% chance to put it back in. Usually he gets blocked or misses wildly. That doesn't do our team any good. As far as rotating, the guy does a better job than POB, but he commits a lot of silly fouls rotating late and out of control. The only time I think that he is a solid defender is when his man is trying to back him down. He holds his position very well. I am by no means saying that he is a BAD defender. Adequate is about as much as I would give him and that isn't Nick's  proper desire to have a GREAT fundamental, defensive, and rebounding presence. However if a player had that he wouldn't be a backup on the bench now, would he?

-edit:I just fixed the quotes - Chris

I don't disagree that he is not a great defender (I may have overstated my case...although you did as well).  He does still make mistakes.  A lot of the problem is that the rest of the bench are incredibly mediocre team defenders, which makes BBD (who I would say is an above average positional defender, but not on the level of Perk or KG who are two of the best in the league) look that much better. 

It also makes BBD's presence out there significantly more important.  BBD is often the only bench player who rotates properly, forcing him to be the last line of defense (and causing him to pick up fouls because...well, he is short, and has trouble challenging shots without fouling).  If they replace BBD, it absolutely needs to be with someone else who is a plus positional defender, otherwise the bench defense, which is already shaky, would become even more pourous. 

So if you were to replace BBD with a guy like POB, who really struggles both in the rotations, as well as maintaining post position against average NBA big men, it would basically be a disaster.  This is why POB looked so much better in the preseason when he was playing with the starters, because even though he was not rotating well, he had KG, and others behind him that were helping to cover up these problems.

I, unlike some others have not given up on POB.  I am not ready to write him off, because I don't like buying into some of the half-assed reports about his work ethic.  But right now, he simply does not give this team what it needs in a big man.