Author Topic: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)  (Read 26255 times)

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Re: todays celts vs Bird's
« Reply #90 on: December 24, 2008, 09:44:18 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I hate to say it but Bill Walton would destroy todays team. I love this team but how in the world would this team deal with Bill Walton off the 86 bench? I read one time where Bill beat McHale in a one on one game in practice! Undoubtedly he was the best passing center in league history as well as being one of its best players. If not for injury the all time center discussion would have his name in it every time. Who on todays team could guard Bird? Not Paul, and I think Paul is still underrated but he couldnt guard Bird as well as he guards Lebron. I would bet that if everyone on the 86 second team were healthy for a whole season that they would have better then a 500 record in todays league. I love todays team and as I stated a few pages ago, if it were the starting 5's playing each other then I would say it would be a great, great series but the 86 squad had too good of a second unit. Too much Big Red for todays squad.

I think celtics17 makes the key point.  Starting 5 vs starting 5 would be an awesome match-up and maybe this team could beat them (more likely more of an even match up).  But when you start to look at the depth, 1986 is much stronger.  Not only Walton who is head and shoulders above anyone on our bench now, but Sichting, Wedman, Carlisle, even Greg Kite as the 3rd center, are much better than today's team.

The thing is that there are more teams in the league now so all teams are not as deep.  Think back on who the lakers had on the bench back in those days.

This team is really good though and we are all lucky to get to watch them play together.  It will go down as one of the premier teams of all time.

Re: Mike Gorman says we would beat the 1986 Celtics
« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2008, 10:04:56 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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I agree with Gorman.  This defense would be too much for that '86 team, imo, especially with the bigger, stronger, faster athletes of today.

the atlanta hawks of the late '80's were always considered the team with "bigger, stronger, faster athletes"...and the celtics beat them in EVERY series they faced them in.

they brought antoine carr, cliff levingston and john battle off their bench...and the celtics handled them pretty well.

i'm 36 years old and lived and breathed nba basketball during the '80's.  as much as i love this current team, and am impressed by how much they remind me of a "throwback" team, this team's bench would be their downfall.

ask me later if they sign mutombo, but right now they would not be able to handle the LENGTH of the '86 team, especially with a HEALTHY bill walton.  let's not forget that he played in 80 of 82 games that season, plus the playoffs.  he was not the injured, decrepit guy you may know him to be - not that season.  there's NO way powe or davis could guard him.
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Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #92 on: December 24, 2008, 10:17:10 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Ray Allen                     33 6-5 205           Danny Ainge           27 6-4 175
Tony Allen                   26 6-4 213           Scott Wedman        33 6-7 215 
Sam Cassell             39 6-3 193 
Glen Davis                 22 6-9 289            Bill Walton             33 6-11 210
Kevin Garnett             32 6-11 253          Kevin McHale       28 6-10 210
J.R. Giddens              23 6-5 215
Eddie House             30 6-1 175             Jerry Sichting       29 6-1 170
Patrick O'Bryant         22 7-0 250             Greg Kite               24 6-11 250
Kendrick Perkins       24 6-10 280         Robert Parish       32 7-0 230
Paul Pierce               31 6-7 235              Larry Bird               29 6-9 220
Leon Powe                24 6-8 240             Sly Williams          28 6-7 210
Gabe Pruitt               22 6-4 170              Sam Vincent          23 6-2 185
Rajon Rondo            22 6-1 171              Dennis Johnson  31 6-4 185
Brian Scalabrine     30 6-9 235               David Thirdkill      26 6-7 195
Bill Walker                21 6-6 220 


Okay, so maybe it's me but I don't get the bigger, stronger faster thing. Here's a look at the matchups of each player with his counterpart. Where's the bigger stronger faster part. Sure in a couple of positions there's a weight advantage probably due to more muscle but that doesn't equate to stronger and faster in this league.

Perk is a beast but his matchup, Parish, was a black belt in a martial art and had unreal balance and power not to mention height and skill level on Perk. DJ was much bigger and stronger than Rondo and equally as long. If you think Chauncey Billups gave Rondo a tough time you wouldn't believe what DJ would do to him. Bird and Pierce are a wash as Bird had a couple inches on him but Pierce is much faster than Bird was. They were probably equally strong. Same can probably be said about KG and McHale. Ray definitely had some size on Danny but I think Danny might have been quicker.

The 86 bench had sheer height on the current bench though they gave up some strength and weight on the wings. The frontcourt bench had tons more talent however whereas the backcourt was again probably a push.

Re: Mike Gorman says we would beat the 1986 Celtics
« Reply #93 on: December 24, 2008, 10:27:40 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I agree with Gorman.  This defense would be too much for that '86 team, imo, especially with the bigger, stronger, faster athletes of today.

  Nobody in the league would be able to stop Bird or McHale. Players now are a tiny bit bigger, a lot stronger, and less skilled in a lot of respects. You realize that the '86 team had a big size advantage over the current team, right? Bird was at least 6'9, McHale was 6'10 or so with really long arms and Parish and Walton were over 7 foot. Wanna try and match up Big Baby or Leon on Walton? You think you've seen Davis cry before...

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #94 on: December 24, 2008, 10:40:02 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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another point of reference...

i just watched ESPN's Sportscenter...Bob Ryan was being interviewed on the phone in the "word on the street" segment.  He said the '85-86 celtics were the greatest celtics team of all time, with this current group ranked 2nd.  but the comment i liked the best:

"this is the only team that ever brought a HEALTHY bill walton OFF THE BENCH."

he also said he would pay heavy cash to watch this matchup.

i find it interesting that this debate has been discussed on last night's telecast and also today on sportscenter...wonder if those people ever visit this site... :)
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #95 on: December 24, 2008, 10:54:02 AM »

Online Redz

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Any way you slice it, the mere fact that this team has even entered the discussion among great Celtics teams is pretty amazing giving how little time they've spent as a unit.
Yup

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2008, 01:21:55 PM »

Offline coco

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Rules were different and Isolation would have played a big part in the outcome.  As an example, I think Rondo, would have trouble getting into the lane, cause the rules were such that DJ wouldn't "legally" let him.  I think KG vs KMcHale is a wash, LBird vs PP close to a wash, Parish ove Perk, RAllen over Ainge, BWalton over Powe/BBaby

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2008, 03:16:58 PM »

Online Redz

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Bird's Celts had a kickass theme song.  What have the current guys got?  Huh?

We'll overlook the details of the lyrics of this one (first time since `69 fell a wee bit short)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkJr2d2Nllg
Yup

Re: Mike Gorman says we would beat the 1986 Celtics
« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2008, 05:18:43 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I trust Tommy's opinion.
I go back to the tail end of the Russell era, but believe it or not folks, very few of the games were televised back then, so we're  not as familiar with those teams.
But, as far as the 86 team versus the current team? I honestly don't have an opinion because the rules and the officiating are much different. I suppose the 86 team had more overall talent, but IMO this team is more fun to watch. The style was more one-on-one and post-up back then, the NBA was pretty boring(just think of Charles Barkley with the ball backing his man down with his big fat behind, and four teammates standing around, to remember how boring basketball can be).
But the topic is fun, just to remember how many great teams and players we've been privileged to watch here.
PS- the Cowens era teams were no slouches either.



You do sir charles a grave disservice good sir!  :)

going to have to bust out the charles vid from youtube when i get home that we used in that davis is the next barkley thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v9XE7BijJA

Not sure if this is the one you're talking about, but it gets the job done.

thats the one, being backed down was the least of his opponents problems.

Its an overused qoute but justified

"in his hey day, God wouldn't stand in Charles way on a fast break"
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2009, 08:50:36 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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So...  anybody taking this year's team now?  :P

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2009, 10:28:10 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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So...  anybody taking this year's team now?  :P

I am.  The 86' Celts have no answer for Eddie House.
God bless and good night!


Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2009, 10:39:04 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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Not only did the league have fewer teams in the mid 80's, maybe around 20 compared to todays 30, but a much overlooked fact in the equation is the baby boom generation. The official baby boom gereration is 1946-1964 where there were around 75 million people born in about 20 years or an average of about 3.75 million per year. I dont think we have that many today with a population that is probably more then twice as many in the U.S.

What this means is that there were not only fewer teams but also more people in the age range required to play pro ball. Granted todays league is a worldwide one where we have players from all over the world but since there are %50 more teams today that means we have to find that many more quality international players to make up fewer quality American players. It also means that there has to be %50 more "star" players to make teams competitive. I dont know about you but I have yet to see %50 more MJ's, Larry Bird's, or Magic's to name a few of the players of the past who would absolutely dominate todays game.

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2009, 11:52:48 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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No longer being trite (and going back to what I said on the first page of this thread).

McHale would dominate Garnett.  I can't see Garnett giving McHale any problems defensively (he used to be able to take Kareem and Worthy doubleteams on the block), and I think McHale would be a more-than-adequate defender against KG, even in the midrange game.

I can see Ainge getting in Ray Allen's head - he was quite the scrappy defender.

Parish would own Perk so bad it's not even funny.

DJ would school Rondo on both ends of the floor.  I'd love to see Rondo even attempt to guard DJ on the block.

And Pierce vs Bird - trading buckets?  Please.

And the benches, let's not even go there.  Bill Walton vs Leon Powe?  Tony Allen vs anyone?

It really depends upon how the game would be officiated, but I really don't think this matchup is even close, nor did I when we were 29-2.  And no, this isn't a "good old days" rememberance - that team was simply better.

I don't know what Gorman was smokin' when he said this, but gimme some of that stuff, will ya?
God bless and good night!


Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2009, 09:21:55 AM »

Offline Andy Jick

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get the brooms out...'86 team in a rout.  and mchale would even eat pizza while sitting on the bench.  :)
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2009, 09:39:25 AM »

Offline TatteredOnMySleeve

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Ever since Gorman said that, this team could lose to a healthy 06 celtics in a 7 game series
When you got it going, you got it going. I just keep my focus down the stretch. That's when I want the ball. I'm just not afraid to fail."-PaulPierce