todays celts vs Bird's / Gorman's opinion (merged)

[Roy Hobbs]

There's been some underrating of DJ in this thread.  I like Rondo and all, but DJ was just a better player.  I think the '86 team wins four of the five individual matchups, plus has a better bench.

[BballTim]

Bird a razor thin margin over Pierce who will have his moments of truth. But Larry Bird is one of the greatest to lace 'em up.

  Pierce is not close to Bird. Paul is seen as one of the top 3-5 at his position currently playing. People were debating whether Bird was the best player of all time when he played. There's nobody in the league at that level right now, although LeBron could get to that point.

[Andy Jick]

There's been some underrating of DJ in this thread.  I like Rondo and all, but DJ was just a better player.  I think the '86 team wins four of the five individual matchups, plus has a better bench.

good point, roy...because what would most likely happen is that this team would have to double-down the low post players on the '86 team.  and rondo would likely be that guy, leaving DJ open.  and if history ever teaches us anything it's to NEVER leave DJ wide open, especially in big games.  BIG mistake...

[BrickJames]

Bird a razor thin margin over Pierce who will have his moments of truth. But Larry Bird is one of the greatest to lace 'em up.

  Pierce is not close to Bird. Paul is seen as one of the top 3-5 at his position currently playing. People were debating whether Bird was the best player of all time when he played. There's nobody in the league at that level right now, although LeBron could get to that point.

Nor is KG anywhere close to McHale.  I'm sorry but KM would eat KG alive on the block.

[nickagneta]

I said early on what my opinion was and the more I read this thread the more I am surprised at how many people think that this team would stand a chance against the 86 team. The 86 team had Bird at his peak in MVP form, McHale just coming into his peak who was one of the best defenders in the NBA that year with 86 and 87 being his most dominant defensive years, Parish, Aine and DJ, who, lest we forget, might have been the closest thing to a young MJ and Kobe that you could find when he first came into the league.

Bird in 86 was twice the all round player that Pierce is this year, easily. Parish in his 86 form would outplay a smaller, less savy Perk without a problem. McHale in his 86 form is better than KG in his 08 form. If this was 00 I would call it a draw or slight edge for KG but KG in his current form is nowhere near as good as KG 00 or McHale 86. Ainge would give Ray Allen a lot of trouble. Allen has had problems with Rip Hamilton and Wally Szczerbiak and Joe Johnson, all good shooter that move well without the ball. Ainge was such a player and was as good an athlete as you can find. And DJ was one of the best defensive PGs in the league in 86 and he also was bigger, mre physical, had long arms and was as clutch as they came, sort of like a better version of Chauncey Billups, a player that has always given Rondo trouble. Besides let's not forget what an intelligent player DJ was and that silent communication that he and Bird had on that baseline backdoor play where DJ would fastball it to Bird before Bird even turned on the backdoor and Bird would lay it in. Rondo and Pierce has never played against such a deadly PG/SF combo ever.

Younger guys who think we older guys are just waxing nostalgic, beware. We aren't. That 86 team was one of the best ever assembled on the planet ever. I can't say that about this group simply because they are on a pace to win a ton of games in a watered down league.

[Redz]

I said early on what my opinion was and the more I read this thread the more I am surprised at how many people think that this team would stand a chance against the 86 team. The 86 team had Bird at his peak in MVP form, McHale just coming into his peak who was one of the best defenders in the NBA that year with 86 and 87 being his most dominant defensive years, Parish, Aine and DJ, who, lest we forget, might have been the closest thing to a young MJ and Kobe that you could find when he first came into the league.

Bird in 86 was twice the all round player that Pierce is this year, easily. Parish in his 86 form would outplay a smaller, less savy Perk without a problem. McHale in his 86 form is better than KG in his 08 form. If this was 00 I would call it a draw or slight edge for KG but KG in his current form is nowhere near as good as KG 00 or McHale 86. Ainge would give Ray Allen a lot of trouble. Allen has had problems with Rip Hamilton and Wally Szczerbiak and Joe Johnson, all good shooter that move well without the ball. Ainge was such a player and was as good an athlete as you can find. And DJ was one of the best defensive PGs in the league in 86 and he also was bigger, mre physical, had long arms and was as clutch as they came, sort of like a better version of Chauncey Billups, a player that has always given Rondo trouble. Besides let's not forget what an intelligent player DJ was and that silent communication that he and Bird had on that baseline backdoor play where DJ would fastball it to Bird before Bird even turned on the backdoor and Bird would lay it in. Rondo and Pierce has never played against such a deadly PG/SF combo ever.

Younger guys who think we older guys are just waxing nostalgic, beware. We aren't. That 86 team was one of the best ever assembled on the planet ever. I can't say that about this group simply because they are on a pace to win a ton of games in a watered down league.

All true Nick, and in our fantasy world it would be even more intriguing to see a seven game series between these two teams at their peaks if they knew they were playing for some sort of modern day Celtics bragging rights.  As competitive as the current Celts are, I'd have to give that edge to the Bird team too.  It would be a hell of a thing to see though.

[crownsy]

To be fair, I avoid these discussions because i Don't think they can be objective in the slightest. While I agree the 86 team is better, as a younger celtics fan (25) I wasen't aware of basketball back then, so I missed these teams. And, since i do belive that nostalgia plays a role, Its hard for any contrary position to argue, because your immeditly shouted down as not personaly aware on the subject (true, i was 4 at the time.)

Just not a fun debate for me, since no one who has a contary opnion who is not old enough to remeber that team (Id say like 14+ in 86) is considered having a leg to stand on in the discussion.

And again, i do think the 86 team was the superior team, but i just don't find these discussions productive as a younger C's fan. To even suggest this team (08's) could hold that team (86) to a competitive game gets you dismissed as a yahoo. 

just my two cents on the dynamic.

[Redz]

To be fair, I avoid these discussions because i Don't think they can be objective in the slightest. While I agree the 86 team is better, as a younger celtics fan (25) I wasen't aware of basketball back then, so I missed these teams. And, since i do belive that nostalgia plays a role, Its hard for any contrary position to argue, because your immeditly shouted down as not personaly aware on the subject (true, i was 4 at the time.)

Just not a fun debate for me, since no one who has a contary opnion who is not old enough to remeber that team (Id say like 14+ in 86) is considered having a leg to stand on in the discussion.

And again, i do think the 86 team was the superior team, but i just don't find these discussions productive as a younger C's fan. To even suggest this team (08's) could hold that team (86) to a competitive game gets you dismissed as a yahoo. 

just my two cents on the dynamic.

back in the 80's we had to walk barefoot uphill both ways to the Garden and the rats would bite our toes (ok that parts true  )

You kids today have it easy!

Is that what you mean Crownsy?

[crownsy]

To be fair, I avoid these discussions because i Don't think they can be objective in the slightest. While I agree the 86 team is better, as a younger celtics fan (25) I wasen't aware of basketball back then, so I missed these teams. And, since i do belive that nostalgia plays a role, Its hard for any contrary position to argue, because your immeditly shouted down as not personaly aware on the subject (true, i was 4 at the time.)

Just not a fun debate for me, since no one who has a contary opnion who is not old enough to remeber that team (Id say like 14+ in 86) is considered having a leg to stand on in the discussion.

And again, i do think the 86 team was the superior team, but i just don't find these discussions productive as a younger C's fan. To even suggest this team (08's) could hold that team (86) to a competitive game gets you dismissed as a yahoo. 

just my two cents on the dynamic.

back in the 80's we had to walk barefoot uphill both ways to the Garden and the rats would bite our toes (ok that parts true  )

You kids today have it easy!

Is that what you mean Crownsy?

A bit, and im not here to claim the 08' celtics are better than the 86 ones (which is utterly and completly false) I;m just saying as a younger C's fan, its tough to even mention the fact (as some have, i thought mo's write up was excellent) that this could even be a competitve series without getting laughed out of the thread by some of the older posters.

[housecall]

There's been some underrating of DJ in this thread.  I like Rondo and all, but DJ was just a better player.  I think the '86 team wins four of the five individual matchups, plus has a better bench.

This morning on ESPN,Steven A.was congradulating George "the Iceman"Gervin on making the Hall of Fame,asked the Iceman who was the toughest cover he ever had on him.Iceman's quote "the hardest 30pts i ever scored was aganist Dennis Johnson".He went on to say Dennis Johnson was the best defensive pg he ever faced and the team(Celts)during that decade were the best team in the NBA.

[nickagneta]

To be fair, I avoid these discussions because i Don't think they can be objective in the slightest. While I agree the 86 team is better, as a younger celtics fan (25) I wasen't aware of basketball back then, so I missed these teams. And, since i do belive that nostalgia plays a role, Its hard for any contrary position to argue, because your immeditly shouted down as not personaly aware on the subject (true, i was 4 at the time.)

Just not a fun debate for me, since no one who has a contary opnion who is not old enough to remeber that team (Id say like 14+ in 86) is considered having a leg to stand on in the discussion.

And again, i do think the 86 team was the superior team, but i just don't find these discussions productive as a younger C's fan. To even suggest this team (08's) could hold that team (86) to a competitive game gets you dismissed as a yahoo. 

just my two cents on the dynamic.

back in the 80's we had to walk barefoot uphill both ways to the Garden and the rats would bite our toes (ok that parts true  )

You kids today have it easy!

Is that what you mean Crownsy?

A bit, and im not here to claim the 08' celtics are better than the 86 ones (which is utterly and completly false) I;m just saying as a younger C's fan, its tough to even mention the fact (as some have, i thought mo's write up was excellent) that this could even be a competitve series without getting laughed out of the thread by some of the older posters.

In most cases you are right, these just aren't productive debates and especially so for those that can't speak intelligently on the subject because they are too young. But I think there's enough fairly objective people who are older that are giving younger people an accurate opinion in this case.

The whole nowadays athletics, players, and teams are better than a different generation is extremely tough to gauge. Some will say that because of the advent of supplements, weight training, dieticians, etc, that today's athletes are better. In football, I would aggree with that. But baseball and basketball are sports where being extra muscular isn't necessarily a good thing. There's a reason that back in the day pitchers pitched more innings and basketball players played more minutes, the extra weight caused by some modern day training isn't always conducive to being a better basketball player. Game pace in both sports has slowed to a crawl whereas, once upon a time, especially basketball, was a sport of movement.

It's tough because us older guys tend to only remember the good and great things of years gone by in sport and forget some of the less than shining examples of the sport at that time. I think that's correct about all thing, not just sports. On the other hand younger people in general always think that their brand of sports, technology, life is better than once upon a time so the dichotomy of the views tend to lapse into the same old stuff.

But they can be fun!!

[ACF]

To be fair, I avoid these discussions because i Don't think they can be objective in the slightest. While I agree the 86 team is better, as a younger celtics fan (25) I wasen't aware of basketball back then, so I missed these teams. And, since i do belive that nostalgia plays a role, Its hard for any contrary position to argue, because your immeditly shouted down as not personaly aware on the subject (true, i was 4 at the time.)

Just not a fun debate for me, since no one who has a contary opnion who is not old enough to remeber that team (Id say like 14+ in 86) is considered having a leg to stand on in the discussion.

And again, i do think the 86 team was the superior team, but i just don't find these discussions productive as a younger C's fan. To even suggest this team (08's) could hold that team (86) to a competitive game gets you dismissed as a yahoo. 

just my two cents on the dynamic.

back in the 80's we had to walk barefoot uphill both ways to the Garden and the rats would bite our toes (ok that parts true  ) You kids today have it easy!

TP for the MP reference there 

[crownsy]

There's been some underrating of DJ in this thread.  I like Rondo and all, but DJ was just a better player.  I think the '86 team wins four of the five individual matchups, plus has a better bench.

This morning on ESPN,Steven A.was congradulating George "the Iceman"Gervin on making the Hall of Fame,asked the Iceman who was the toughest cover he ever had on him.Iceman's quote "the hardest 30pts i ever scored was aganist Dennis Johnson".He went on to say Dennis Johnson was the best defensive pg he ever faced and the team(Celts)during that decade were the best team in the NBA.

side topic, you see them ask stephan A about the AFC east. The question was what he thought of the jets. here is his response;

Smith: So if the Jets beat Miami, explain to me why the Jets don't win the division. THEY BEAT MIAMI, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.


Maybe because the Pats would be 11-5 if they beat Buffalo and the best the Jets can be is 10-6? That would be my running theory steve. Not really on topic, but i just thought it was hillarious.
 

 
of course no one pointed this out to him, and his rightous "the jets are getting screwed in this whole deal!" rant continued.

[housecall]

There's been some underrating of DJ in this thread.  I like Rondo and all, but DJ was just a better player.  I think the '86 team wins four of the five individual matchups, plus has a better bench.

This morning on ESPN,Steven A.was congradulating George "the Iceman"Gervin on making the Hall of Fame,asked the Iceman who was the toughest cover he ever had on him.Iceman's quote "the hardest 30pts i ever scored was aganist Dennis Johnson".He went on to say Dennis Johnson was the best defensive pg he ever faced and the team(Celts)during that decade were the best team in the NBA.

side topic, you see them ask stephan A about the AFC east. The question was what he thought of the jets. here is his response;

Smith: So if the Jets beat Miami, explain to me why the Jets don't win the division. THEY BEAT MIAMI, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.


Maybe because the Pats would be 11-5 if they beat Buffalo and the best the Jets can be is 10-6? That would be my running theory steve. Not really on topic, but i just thought it was hillarious.
 

 
of course no one pointed this out to him, and his rightous "the jets are getting screwed in this whole deal!" rant continued.

Yea Crownsy i caught that part,he is stupid at times as well as hillarious...Steven A.hates Favre as much as Celtics fans hate the Lakers.

[cordobes]

I think that the current team would be pretty competitive against some Bird's teams. These guys are pretty good, don't underestimate the impact of an historically good interior defense. Just not the '86 one.