Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!

[moiso]

I think tony is kind of leveling out now.  He's never going to be able to shoot well, and I don't think that extra 10% of athleticism he once possessed is going to change his game much.  I also think right now he is playing better than he did as a rookie and equal to that 17 game stretch a couple years ago.  He is much more in control this year, and he is fitting into the system very nicely.

[Big_Matt34]

Ok, my point more than anything else is that while he is very off and on on offense, his defense has consistenly been very good. I also think the numbers prove he has been our best bench player this year. I think the bench besides him has been the problem, there is no consistency from anyone else offensively or defensively, atleast TA gives us great defense whenever he is in.

Now while i am a big TA fan ill admit he frustrates me alot between losing the ball, throwing up some crazy shot instead of going up stronger when i think he can. I believe he is 100% physically because when he goes to the hoop he gets way up but chooses to try to lay it in softly instead of dunking which is understandable as he is probably gunshy about dunking and landing in traffic. But overall i think he has done a good job HELPING fill in for the loss of Posey but he can't replace what Posey brought by himself because he just isnt as versatile on defense. Powe has underachieved so far this year, he is still is awful on help defense, and for some reason he is going up weaker this year, he is looking for contact too much and while he gets to the line he isnt hitting them at a respectable rate, even Tommy said something about this a week ago or so, Doc has obviously noticed as Powes minutes have been way down over the last 3 weeks or so. I wont say House has underachieved because we know what we will get from him, streak shooting and energy.

Posey cant be replaced by TA or any other single player because he did so many things but i think if the bench plays up to its potential it can be very good.

[cordobes]

I firmly believe Tony's main problem is believing in the same stuff that many here do: that he can be much better, that he should be more aggressive, etc. That's a big part of his inconsistency.

He'd be a much more effective player if his game was more "humble".

[BballTim]

Tony is what he is and will never be more than what he is. He had one magnificent 16-18 game stretch late in 06 and early in 07. Other than that, is he really markably better than the kid we first saw out of college? I don't think so. He will be a serviceable role player his entire career who will give you as many boneheaded plays as highlight reel suff and be extremely inconsistent. He is what he is. A Posey replacement, he isn't.

  Of course he's not a Posey replacement. James carried the team on his back all the way to the finals last year. Don't you remember all of the posts last summer claiming that the Celts would be a much weaker team without Posey? We're lucky to be in contention for the playoffs without him.

So are you claiming that it is Tony Allen that is the reason that the Celtics are so much better than many thought? Because if you asked me I would say Tony Allen is playing a bit better than last year but it has been pretty much better chemistry between the Big Three and the exceptional increase in the quality of play of Rondo and Perk that is the reason for the Celtics success this year.

And as for him being a Posey replacement, come talk to me when Tony is shutting down Kobe, Odom, LeBron, Smith, Johnson, Prince and McDyess in the playoffs while hitting late game clutch fourth quarter three's in pressure situations. Posey was a leader, was clutch and was extremely versatile, words no one uses when describing Tony Allen.

  No, I'm saying that Posey's contributions from last year have taken on almost mythical proportions. A player who "shut down Kobe, Odom, LeBron, Smith, Johnson, Prince and McDyess in the playoffs while hitting late game clutch fourth quarter three's in pressure situations" would have been much more deserving of the MVP than Paul Pierce, who's accomplishments in the playoffs pale in comparison.

Holy hyperbole Batman!!

Did I claim that Posey was the only person playing great defense? Did I say he was the only person responsible for the Celtics success? Did I say he was MVP material?

All I am saying is that when it counts most, in the playoffs, Posey has for two different World Championship teams proven that he can shut down some of the best in the business for periods of time and will take and hit some of the most important shots at critical times.

Tony Allen has never, ever done anything close to that. When he does, come talk to me about his replacing Posey's contributions, until then, stop trying to put words into my mouth. He isn't the overall, all around player Posey is, I think that's pretty evident just from the contracts they signed in the off season not just what they have accomplished on the court.

  Posey played pretty well for a sub for us in the playoffs. His defense was pretty good, not as good as Pierce and he didn't really shut down players like LeBron or Kobe. You're confusing a few highlights with how he played game in and game out. And if you're worried about my putting words in your mouth you shouldn't say so right after "Tony Allen has never, ever done anything close to that. When he does, come talk to me about his replacing Posey's contributions". Not only did I never say that TA replaced Posey's contributions but I denied saying it when you asked about it.

[BballTim]

I firmly believe Tony's main problem is believing in the same stuff that many here do: that he can be much better, that he should be more aggressive, etc. That's a big part of his inconsistency.

He'd be a much more effective player if his game was "humble".

  While this is probably true you don't know what the coaches are telling him. He's often on the court with a group of players that aren't very good at creating their own offense. I think it's as likely that he's encouraged to do more than he should. I'm not comparing the players at all, but Iverson would have been a more effective player in Philly if he didn't spend so much time going 1v3 and getting off some wild shots. At the same time I doubt that he was told to pass the ball whenever the defense concentrated on him.

[cordobes]

I firmly believe Tony's main problem is believing in the same stuff that many here do: that he can be much better, that he should be more aggressive, etc. That's a big part of his inconsistency.

He'd be a much more effective player if his game was "humble".

  While this is probably true you don't know what the coaches are telling him. He's often on the court with a group of players that aren't very good at creating their own offense. I think it's as likely that he's encouraged to do more than he should. I'm not comparing the players at all, but Iverson would have been a more effective player in Philly if he didn't spend so much time going 1v3 and getting off some wild shots. At the same time I doubt that he was told to pass the ball whenever the defense concentrated on him.

Tony Allen is not Iverson. I'm pretty sure the coaches know that. Allen has been like this since he entered the league, no matter who's he playing with.

[Amonkey]

I haven't seen what people have said in this post but this is how I feel about Tony Allen.

Tony Allen still has room to improve, just like House who has become a better player as a whole (not playing outside his box, maximizing what he can bring to the floor) because of his veteranship, I think Allen will reach that and be a good bench player for a long time in this league.

Defense: Tony Allen has been extremely underated on his defensive side of play.  If people just look at his box score, they don't see how TA has been on the D.  He has a great knack of where the ball is and either deflecting, stealing or making the offensive player worried about catching the ball.  There are at least four or five plays each game where he is somehow part of a steal or close to one by deflecting the ball.  He has been very good staying with the man and he does come up with some occasionaly blocks.  Like I said, the box score does not show how well he has been defensively.

Offense: I truly think that Tony Allen is the key to the bench on offense.  House can get his shots, Powe can get points off boards and depending on where he gets the ball down low, but TA is the only one that can CREATE shots.  I truly believe that Tony Allen is the Rondo of the 2nd team, as in when he's playing aggressive, taking to the hoop and creating shots for himself, the whole 2nd bench plays with a better rhythm and starts clicking.  For those who want to challenge me I invite to watch the games and notice how the bench plays when TA is just staying back and what happens when he takes to the hoop.  When he's aggressive, we get to the foul line so we're scoring points off FT, or when he misses (which he does miss) then Powe has a chance to clear the bucket, and it opens up for House because they have to respect Tony's ability to take to the hoop.  I have also noticed that Tony doesn't seem to get the respect from the refs as there are times where he does take to the hoop and they dont call fouls.  The thing is that even when TA misses, it's still good because it does create for the other players (as opposed to a missed long shot).

Over all, Tony Allen still has a lot of room to improve, but he has shown great leadership with that second unit.  He's not playing out of his box (although he occasionally he does get out) and I think he's one of the reason that our bench has been playing better as a unit.

[Sweet17]

Tony may be inconsistent on offense this year but he has been flat out awesome on defense, which was one of the two things Posey did. At Sg TA has a PER of 17 and his opponents is 11.2, to give you and idea of how good that is, KG opponents PER at PF is 14.3. Poseys opponents PER is 17.2 at Sg and 13.3 at SF His roland rating is also 5th best on the team at 3.4, Powes is -0.5 and House is -0.8. Tony has been the best bench player this year, its not by some huge amount but the numbers show it.

TA has been the best - and it's by a pretty nice amount. His offense might be mediocre but on D he is perhaps the best in the league matched up against guys his size.

[the TRUTH]

it amazes me how quickly people forget just how great he was during that stretch in '06-'07. not only was he taking it to the hole at will on everyone, but he was knocking down 18 foot jumpers all day.

yes, he's not a good ball-handler, and doesn't have the highest basketball IQ. so no matter how good he is physically, he'll always have a ceiling on how good he can become.

but as the first swingman off the bench, he's good right now, with the potential to become great. he's already much better than he was last year, and i think he'll continue to improve. his explosion is gradually returning, and the jumper will get better with time. IF he becomes the tony of two years ago by the time the playoffs roll around (and barring any serious injuries/slumps by other key players), we'll be unstoppable.

[soap07]

I think one glaring weakness in not only TA's game but just about everyone on the bench except House is leadership. There just isn't any in that group and House isn't good enough to take that leadership role off the bench, hence PP and RA always having to be in the game with them.

Really. For the most part, outside of garbage time, this was the case last year. Did Posey not provide leadership last year? Tony Allen isn't a Posey replacement. He is better. He is better offensively and obviously does a decent job defensively.

For all this talk about the bench struggles, the C's are off to the best start in NBA history without the Big 3 playing significantly more minutes than last year. Ray is even playing less minutes and KG is playing about the same. That means the C's are clearly getting more from their supporting cast.

Tony Allen's Roland Rating is +3.4, best of anybody on the bench and better than one starter.



And as for him being a Posey replacement, come talk to me when Tony is shutting down Kobe, Odom, LeBron, Smith, Johnson, Prince and McDyess in the playoffs while hitting late game clutch fourth quarter three's in pressure situations. Posey was a leader, was clutch and was extremely versatile, words no one uses when describing Tony Allen.


Stats be [dang]ed! Honestly....I just don't see how people can continue to dog Tony considering that in less minutes than Posey (last year's minutes), Allen is averaging more PPG on a better FG% with more steals and blocks. I'm sorry, last preseason, no one was saying that the Celtics were one James Posey away from winning a championship.

[the TRUTH]

another key point that i haven't seen anyone make is how big a key tony's athleticism is for us come playoff time. last year, we often struggled scoring with our 2nd team in the playoffs. we had no athletes who could slash to the basket, create shots for themselves, or create shots for others. posey clearly couldn't do that. TA will.

[soap07]

Tony is what he is and will never be more than what he is. He had one magnificent 16-18 game stretch late in 06 and early in 07. Other than that, is he really markably better than the kid we first saw out of college? I don't think so. He will be a serviceable role player his entire career who will give you as many boneheaded plays as highlight reel suff and be extremely inconsistent. He is what he is. A Posey replacement, he isn't.

  Of course he's not a Posey replacement. James carried the team on his back all the way to the finals last year. Don't you remember all of the posts last summer claiming that the Celts would be a much weaker team without Posey? We're lucky to be in contention for the playoffs without him.

So are you claiming that it is Tony Allen that is the reason that the Celtics are so much better than many thought? Because if you asked me I would say Tony Allen is playing a bit better than last year but it has been pretty much better chemistry between the Big Three and the exceptional increase in the quality of play of Rondo and Perk that is the reason for the Celtics success this year.

And as for him being a Posey replacement, come talk to me when Tony is shutting down Kobe, Odom, LeBron, Smith, Johnson, Prince and McDyess in the playoffs while hitting late game clutch fourth quarter three's in pressure situations. Posey was a leader, was clutch and was extremely versatile, words no one uses when describing Tony Allen.

Allen is playing a "bit" better than last year? His FG% has jumped nearly 4%. He is averaging less turnovers in more minutes. He is averaging nearly 1/2 a steal more. And when did Posey clamp down on Kobe and Lebron? If I'm not mistaken, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith had some huge games in the playoffs as well.

And who's claiming that Tony Allen is the reason that the Celtics are better than everyone thought they would be? He is part of the reason, big distinction. No one is expecting him to be this franchise changing player. He has been an excellent sixth man and that is his ceiling. He has been better than Posey for sure through one quarter of a season.

[soap07]

Since TA is so great, why don't we call up New Orleans and offer TA straight across for Posey... Come on. Get real. If you are trying to prove your point with stats, and not overall contributions, then there is no wonder you think he adds more overall than Powe and House. POB is averaging 2 pts, and 1.5 rebounds in 4 minutes while shooting 67% from the floor. Let's give him BBD's 16 min a game and he will average 8 and 6... Then He will be better than TA as well...

Ah yes, let's compare apples to oranges! Perfect.

I love this line in particular:

"If you are trying to prove your point with stats, and not overall contributions, then there is no wonder you think he adds more overall than Powe and House."

Correct. Let's not use tangible numbers. Let's use one person's subjective, biased and unsubstantiated view of a player's contributions as legitimate.


POB is averaging 2 pts, and 1.5 rebounds in 4 minutes while shooting 67% from the floor. Let's give him BBD's 16 min a game and he will average 8 and 6...

This comparison is ridiculous, irrelevant, facetious and a hypothetical that you cannot prove. What can be proven is that Tony Allen has outproduced James Posey through a quarter of a season. That is fact. Posey's Roland Rating this year is -3.7.

If you think Tony Allen is a distant third on the bench behind Powe and House, consider that Powe's PER for the year is 14.39 and Allen's is 14.37. James Posey's PER for this year is 13.35. But why use stats if they don't fit your argument? People need to start understanding that Posey did not make or break this team last season and Tony has more than made up for his absence.

[phaze]

TA turnover problems are a myth this year.

There is nothing out of line about his turnover numbers.

Yeah... sometimes he loses the ball in traffic.  That's what happens when a big part of your game is slashing.  It happens to Pierce all the time.

He doesn't have a great outside shot.. it's a shame, but if he did he probably wouldn't be coming off our bench.  Some team would be paying him top dollar to start.  If he hadn't hurt his knee, someone probably would be anyway.



   

[CoachBo]

This sport is not measured in its entirety by statistical creations. People need to get it through their heads that there isn't a number that measures when a pass goes to the wrong guy, when a guy falls for the up-fake, etc.