Champions League 2008-09 Thread

[pbak63]

Hello everyone. I'm Pbak. I'm 45, live in Watford - 17 miles NW of London and
I also follow Watford in the English Championship.

I've missed 4 home games since 1994 and have attended something like 1,000 games so far. I also used to referee local park football when I was 15 years old.

The above is just to define who I am - not that my experience or knowledge makes my opinion any more valid than those previously posted.

Man Utd are certainly a great team, and have proved time and time again that they know how to win trophies. Arsenal have some great players but Wenger needs to be prepared to buy a couple of guys with proven quality and experience to help the younger players along.

Utd thrashed Arsenal over the 2 legs and totally deserved to qualify for the final.
As someone who has passed an examination in the laws of the game, the penalty decision against Fletcher, and the subsequent red card, was an appalling error by the referee.

But a mistake, not a show of bias.

Barcelona have been in fantastic form this season and are probably the best team to watch on this season's form. Chelsea have improved vastly since Hiddink's arrival
and have some great players, but most neutrals would choose to watch Barca or Man Utd
ahead of them.

Chelsea showed great discipline at Barcelona last week. They didn't kick Barcelona off the pitch as Barcelona accused them, but they certainly didn't go out to play with much attacking endeavour. They didn't have to - the onus is on Barcelona to break Chelsea's defence down.

Last night, Chelsea scored a fantastic goal through Essien and had several other good chances too. I thought the red card for Abidal was harsh to say the least - there was a small collision between him and Anelka but I couldn't see a geniune
movement from Abidal to attempt to impede Anelka.

The referee Ovrebo had a poor game to say the least. The foul on Malouda for the 1st penalty claim first occurred some 40 yards from goal and there was a 2nd foul attempt
some 20 yards from goal. When the 2 players met again, Malouda did go down 'a little easily' as we Brits say, but the foul was inside the area, or back another 20 yards,
not 20 inches outside the penalty area.

This type of 'kop out' decision happens in football all the time I'm afraid.

The penalty claim for Drogba against Adibal was a definite. Adibal had a handful
of Drogba's shirt - end of. That's a foul. It was in the area, so it's a penalty.

The penalty claim against Pique is very close. The ball certainly hits Pique's right hand. My only doubt is could he have moved his hand away as Anelka was very close
to him ( 3 - 5 yards? ). A real 50  / 50 call. 

The final penalty claim when Ballack's shot hit the back of Eto and then his arm was not a penalty.

When watching Watford, I use a simple rule of thumb - 'Reverse the shirts'.

Would I be happy if that decision was given against my team?

If the answer is no, then it's not a foul / penalty / goal / red card.

Chelsea had a great chance to qualify last night, and I do feel sorry for them
and most of the fans, but they played 25 minutes against 10 men and defended deeper and deeper which eventually led to Barcelona's equaliser.

Finally (Thank God, you all shout), the behaviour of Ballack and Drogba at the end of the game was shocking. I know it's tense, and it means everything, but the referee
has done Chelsea some favours here. Ballack should have been red carded for running 40 - 50 yards screaming in the ref's ear.

There is more chance of Bill Lambeer and Larry Bird sharing a beer than a referee changing his decision.

Ballack should have got a red card, and will probably get a suspension from UEFA.

Drogba is a brilliant footballer, but like a lot of other 'stars', he likes to go to ground too easily on far too many occasions. He also rants and raves at officials
too easily and his behaviour at the end was also a disgrace. Again, the referee didn't even caution him at the end, when a red card was warranted.

To sum up, UEFA probably appointed the wrong official. It needed an stronger European ref, but all referees and officials make mistakes. It's just more frustrating when they happen in key points of big games, especially if it's against your team.

I really can't believe that the official went to try and engineer a positive result for Barcelona, or that he was under pressure from UEFA to do so.

Sorry this was so long, but I hope at least some of the readers appreciate a neutral view from a Celtic's loving Englishman who was lucky enough to see the Bird / Wilkins Game 7 in 1988.

Pbak

[cordobes]

I'll never understand how people complain about the NBA officiating. This game tonight wasn't a football match; just a pure charade. Chelsea deserved to win, and the refs didn't allow Barcelona to be eliminated, just like they'd never allow ManUtd to be eliminated. And people complain about the Chelsea players complaining? They were robbed, raped and murdered all night long.

Well, remember who was at the end of
that red card? It wasn't an Arsenal player
and the decision was shaky, to say the least.

I think there are different ways to
complain. The Chelsea players were
simply just classless.

Which red card?

The sending off of Fletcher.

Very different issues. I mean, Manchester United was already qualified, it had no impact in the game whatsoever and it was an arguable call (in my view, it was the right call).

Chelsea, on the other hand, was robbed all game along - and the officiating had a decisive impact on the outcome of the game and on which team qualified for the final.

Fletcher is not playing in the Final.
I think that's sad. Whether one likes
United or not, it's still a shame.

Well, he commited a penalty and was ejected. The entire Chelsea squad won't be playing in the Final, in spite of deserving it, because Platini and his clique didn't allow it. Isn't that a shame?

Well, I sense the sarcasm oozing from
your choice of words  

No sarcasm, honestly. Don't you seriously think it's a shame that Chelsea got stopped by the ref from playing the Final?

I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. Chelsea lost because they couldn't protect a 1-0 lead at home to a 10-men Barcelona side. If you concede a goal that late at Stamford Bridge on a stage that big with a man advantage, that's just a lack of mental strength. Trust me, I've been watching a team with no mental strength for the last 34 weeks and I recognize the breakdown symptoms. Whining and moaning and complaining about the refs, and invoking a UEFA wide conspiracy to promote Manchester United, including opposing managers and the secretary himself is just a tiny bit misguided, when the real issue was a defensive breakdown in the 93rd at home to a team down a man. If Chelsea did their job yesterday, end of worrying about the refs. They didn't, so now it's complaining time.

That's like saying that Fletcher shouldn't have risked a play that put himself in a situation to be called for a penalty and seeing a red card. He did, so now it's complaining time.

I'm not even a Chelsea fan. The idea that such a terrible officiating should get a pass because the team didn't defend well is ridiculous and purely nonsensical. In that case, why have referees? And then the Chelsea players are the ones getting bashed? People ask for suspensions for them instead of asking for such a terrible referee, who spoiled a game and a competition, to  be fired? That's bizarre. Who cares about mental strength? Now it's easy to put the blame on the lack of mental strength. If the ref had called a single one of those penalties and Chelsea had won the game for 2-0 or 2-1, would you be here saying the problem was lack of mental strength? I'm sorry but I very much doubt it.

if, if, if... and what if Chelsea had missed those penalties like they also missed them against Liverpool and ManU in previous seasons?

Football is actually quite an easy game: you score your chances, you advance. The rest is pretty much speculation. Otherwise if the referee from last week had conceeded a penalty on the charge on Iniesta inside the penalty box and if Barça had scored the penalty then what...

Exactly! But it works both ways: stop with the if the ref hadn't showed the red cart to Fletcher he'd play, what a shame; and if Chelsea had scored on their chances; and if Chelsea had been able to held a 10 man team scoreless, etc.

[cordobes]

Part of what makes the great teams great in ANY sport is they way they overcome adversity, be it poor officiating, injuries, or just coming back from deficits.

Correct. But let's stop pretending teams have faced equal amounts of adversity (that's merely a fiction) - and compare an ejection with the game already decided with a terrible officiating through out the entire game.

Again, the team I support got eliminated by Manchester United, there was a clear penalty that wansn't called and I didn't complain. But Man Utd fans are truly unique: they now complain about their rivals not being robbed enough for their liking.

[Markeras]

Honestly, I don't even understand how the Fletcher red card is an issue being discussed. Since when has UEFA/FIFA ever overruled any referee's decision in a big tournament? It's sort of a universal law that what a UEFA referee decides, stands. Et c'est finit!
I was discussing with some friends these days about the match yesterday and the final in Rome and no one even considered asking themselves if all the yellow cards accumulated by Barça players before these two games needs to be reviewed by UEFA. You tend to accept the decisions even if they are outrageous.

Same actually goes for FIBA in European basketball where there have been huge scandals as well.


Edited..no masked profanity please

[ACF]

So, we can bash football refs but
not NBA refs?

Of course we can bash NBA refs when they deserve it. Nothing wrong with that. Referees at this level are professionals or semi-pros: when they don't execute their job properly, the fans (the consumers who are paying them) have the right to criticize them.

Personally, I'm not one to bash referees. For example, there was a penalty the ref didn't call in the ManUtd vs. Porto match that probably cost us the qualification and I didn't care. Bad officiating happens all the time. Refs make mistakes. Move on. However, in certain cases one must talk. Especially if players who had plenty of reasons to be angered are the ones being bashed.

To sum it up: saying that it's a shame that a player will miss the Final for an alleged officiating mistake but refusing to say the same thing about an entire team that's will miss the Final due to several and repeated officiating mistakes is just incoherent.

I must say, the incident where the ball
hit the FCB defenders' hand, was, IMHO,
the only incident that could've been or
should've been a penalty kick. Then again,
I'm not a CFC fan, so that's why I dont argue
more on behalf of Chelsea.

So let me ask this:
What do people that are not United fans
think of Fletcher's red card?

[ACF]

I could probably find five refs in
Denmark that could handle a CL semi
better than both Rosetti and Øvrebø.
And the ref standard in Denmark is
not even that high 

[ACF]

Hello everyone. I'm Pbak. I'm 45, live in Watford - 17 miles NW of London and
I also follow Watford in the English Championship.

I've missed 4 home games since 1994 and have attended something like 1,000 games so far. I also used to referee local park football when I was 15 years old.

The above is just to define who I am - not that my experience or knowledge makes my opinion any more valid than those previously posted.

Man Utd are certainly a great team, and have proved time and time again that they know how to win trophies. Arsenal have some great players but Wenger needs to be prepared to buy a couple of guys with proven quality and experience to help the younger players along.

Utd thrashed Arsenal over the 2 legs and totally deserved to qualify for the final.
As someone who has passed an examination in the laws of the game, the penalty decision against Fletcher, and the subsequent red card, was an appalling error by the referee.

But a mistake, not a show of bias.

Barcelona have been in fantastic form this season and are probably the best team to watch on this season's form. Chelsea have improved vastly since Hiddink's arrival
and have some great players, but most neutrals would choose to watch Barca or Man Utd
ahead of them.

Chelsea showed great discipline at Barcelona last week. They didn't kick Barcelona off the pitch as Barcelona accused them, but they certainly didn't go out to play with much attacking endeavour. They didn't have to - the onus is on Barcelona to break Chelsea's defence down.

Last night, Chelsea scored a fantastic goal through Essien and had several other good chances too. I thought the red card for Abidal was harsh to say the least - there was a small collision between him and Anelka but I couldn't see a geniune
movement from Abidal to attempt to impede Anelka.

The referee Ovrebo had a poor game to say the least. The foul on Malouda for the 1st penalty claim first occurred some 40 yards from goal and there was a 2nd foul attempt
some 20 yards from goal. When the 2 players met again, Malouda did go down 'a little easily' as we Brits say, but the foul was inside the area, or back another 20 yards,
not 20 inches outside the penalty area.

This type of 'kop out' decision happens in football all the time I'm afraid.

The penalty claim for Drogba against Adibal was a definite. Adibal had a handful
of Drogba's shirt - end of. That's a foul. It was in the area, so it's a penalty.

The penalty claim against Pique is very close. The ball certainly hits Pique's right hand. My only doubt is could he have moved his hand away as Anelka was very close
to him ( 3 - 5 yards? ). A real 50  / 50 call. 

The final penalty claim when Ballack's shot hit the back of Eto and then his arm was not a penalty.

When watching Watford, I use a simple rule of thumb - 'Reverse the shirts'.

Would I be happy if that decision was given against my team?

If the answer is no, then it's not a foul / penalty / goal / red card.

Chelsea had a great chance to qualify last night, and I do feel sorry for them
and most of the fans, but they played 25 minutes against 10 men and defended deeper and deeper which eventually led to Barcelona's equaliser.

Finally (Thank God, you all shout), the behaviour of Ballack and Drogba at the end of the game was shocking. I know it's tense, and it means everything, but the referee
has done Chelsea some favours here. Ballack should have been red carded for running 40 - 50 yards screaming in the ref's ear.

There is more chance of Bill Lambeer and Larry Bird sharing a beer than a referee changing his decision.

Ballack should have got a red card, and will probably get a suspension from UEFA.

Drogba is a brilliant footballer, but like a lot of other 'stars', he likes to go to ground too easily on far too many occasions. He also rants and raves at officials
too easily and his behaviour at the end was also a disgrace. Again, the referee didn't even caution him at the end, when a red card was warranted.

To sum up, UEFA probably appointed the wrong official. It needed an stronger European ref, but all referees and officials make mistakes. It's just more frustrating when they happen in key points of big games, especially if it's against your team.

I really can't believe that the official went to try and engineer a positive result for Barcelona, or that he was under pressure from UEFA to do so.

Sorry this was so long, but I hope at least some of the readers appreciate a neutral view from a Celtic's loving Englishman who was lucky enough to see the Bird / Wilkins Game 7 in 1988.

Pbak

A great first post, TP.
And welcome to CelticsBlog! 

[Roy Hobbs]

Honestly, I don't even understand how the Fletcher red card is an issue being discussed. Since when has UEFA/FIFA ever overruled any referee's decision in a big tournament?

You're correct, in that there's apparently not a lot of precedent for it.  I believe a UEFA source said yesterday that it would open a "Pandora's box".

All that being said...  UEFA is at least going to consider United's appeal:

. . .UEFA general secretary David Taylor has now revealed an avenue of appeal could be open to United over the card which dashed Fletcher's Champions League final hopes.

As things stand Fletcher will sit out the final against Barcelona in Rome later this month but Taylor has hinted at a reprieve for the combative midfielder.

''I have spoken with Alex Ferguson personally on this - as fate would have it we shared a car after the match. We were rather thrown together but had an interesting discussion,'' Taylor told The Sun. ''He was very fair about the referee and what had happened but equally he was very disappointed for Darren, as are we all.

''I tried to give Alex as much advice as I could with regards the procedure in these circumstances.

''There is no formal process. But if the club want to write to us with information - such as video evidence - explaining why they think this is a harsh punishment then they can do that.

''The likelihood is that we'd then refer the matter to our disciplinary body.

''They would then look to see if there were any special circumstances to justify any departure from established procedures. I must stress there is normally no way these matters can be overturned.''

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=644005&sec=uefachampionsleague&cc=5901

[Markeras]

So, we can bash football refs but
not NBA refs?

Of course we can bash NBA refs when they deserve it. Nothing wrong with that. Referees at this level are professionals or semi-pros: when they don't execute their job properly, the fans (the consumers who are paying them) have the right to criticize them.

Personally, I'm not one to bash referees. For example, there was a penalty the ref didn't call in the ManUtd vs. Porto match that probably cost us the qualification and I didn't care. Bad officiating happens all the time. Refs make mistakes. Move on. However, in certain cases one must talk. Especially if players who had plenty of reasons to be angered are the ones being bashed.

To sum it up: saying that it's a shame that a player will miss the Final for an alleged officiating mistake but refusing to say the same thing about an entire team that's will miss the Final due to several and repeated officiating mistakes is just incoherent.

I must say, the incident where the ball
hit the FCB defenders' hand, was, IMHO,
the only incident that could've been or
should've been a penalty kick. Then again,
I'm not a CFC fan, so that's why I dont argue
more on behalf of Chelsea.

So let me ask this:
What do people that are not United fans
think of Fletcher's red card?

To me it was not a penalty and not a red card. Just a clumsy tackle by Fletcher. That being said, if the referee sees a penalty tehre he has to give the red card. No other way around it.

[ACF]

So, we can bash football refs but
not NBA refs?

Of course we can bash NBA refs when they deserve it. Nothing wrong with that. Referees at this level are professionals or semi-pros: when they don't execute their job properly, the fans (the consumers who are paying them) have the right to criticize them.

Personally, I'm not one to bash referees. For example, there was a penalty the ref didn't call in the ManUtd vs. Porto match that probably cost us the qualification and I didn't care. Bad officiating happens all the time. Refs make mistakes. Move on. However, in certain cases one must talk. Especially if players who had plenty of reasons to be angered are the ones being bashed.

To sum it up: saying that it's a shame that a player will miss the Final for an alleged officiating mistake but refusing to say the same thing about an entire team that's will miss the Final due to several and repeated officiating mistakes is just incoherent.

I must say, the incident where the ball
hit the FCB defenders' hand, was, IMHO,
the only incident that could've been or
should've been a penalty kick. Then again,
I'm not a CFC fan, so that's why I dont argue
more on behalf of Chelsea.

So let me ask this:
What do people that are not United fans
think of Fletcher's red card?

To me it was not a penalty and not a red card. Just a clumsy tackle by Fletcher. That being said, if the referee sees a penalty tehre he has to give the red card. No other way around it.

Agreed.

[Roy Hobbs]

That being said, if the referee sees a penalty tehre he has to give the red card. No other way around it.

Agreed...  officials should call the play as they see it.  As you may know, in England the referees are generally given the right to rescind red cards after the fact.  Maybe UEFA could look into that.  If the potential for scandal is too great, there's a possibility for limited instant replay.  Or, you can take the current approach, and say that poor calls even out over time.

I just hate seeing an innocent player miss the Final.

[Markeras]

Part of what makes the great teams great in ANY sport is they way they overcome adversity, be it poor officiating, injuries, or just coming back from deficits.

Correct. But let's stop pretending teams have faced equal amounts of adversity (that's merely a fiction) - and compare an ejection with the game already decided with a terrible officiating through out the entire game.

Again, the team I support got eliminated by Manchester United, there was a clear penalty that wansn't called and I didn't complain. But Man Utd fans are truly unique: they now complain about their rivals not being robbed enough for their liking.

But it's not just Manu supporters, it's been Barça fans for years (and I am a Barça supporter) complaining about Real in the past, it's been Real this whole season complaining about Barça when we outclassed them by far, it's now Chelsea, tomorrow Arsenal, then Inter... Whenever their teams are affected by a bad decision, 80% of supporters tend to go nuts and blame the referee and so do players and managers and presidents.

I have to agree that not all teams face the same degree of adversity and my impression is that most big clubs are favoured by referees in almost any competition, it's almost like NBA stars getting their cheap calls the whole time. The media repercussion of a bad decision against a big club in any sport is just too big. Biased, irrational journalists make lots of noise (at least in Spain) and you hear about a bad decision in a certain game for a week. On the contrary, if a not so popular team is penalized there's normally much less of a repercussion.
That said, on the otehr hand, I feel that many of these bigger football clubs just want it more in too many occasions and thus get dubious decisions in their favour more often because they just are too close to the opposite goal too often. Inevitabely if you constantly attack, after 4 or 5 very close decisions on any variety of dubious situations, the pressure on the referee starts to amount and that leads to ugly decisions being taken later in the game. And often it's the players themselves who just put great amounts of pressure on the referee with their constant b*tching.

There's lots of injustice in sports, frustration, bad refereeing but in the end normally bad decisions even out and the best tend to win. We have all become frustrated from bad officiating while we watched our teams, hell, I have even seen bad decision in cycling when a rider missed the chance to dispute the win of a mountain stage because a cop told him to go the worng way(!).
 
It enfuriates, it hurts, it might make you cry but in the end it's part of the game. And it will always be.

[cordobes]

Honestly, I don't even understand how the Fletcher red card is an issue being discussed. Since when has UEFA/FIFA ever overruled any referee's decision in a big tournament?

You're correct, in that there's apparently not a lot of precedent for it.  I believe a UEFA source said yesterday that it would open a "Pandora's box".

All that being said...  UEFA is at least going to consider United's appeal:

. . .UEFA general secretary David Taylor has now revealed an avenue of appeal could be open to United over the card which dashed Fletcher's Champions League final hopes.

As things stand Fletcher will sit out the final against Barcelona in Rome later this month but Taylor has hinted at a reprieve for the combative midfielder.

''I have spoken with Alex Ferguson personally on this - as fate would have it we shared a car after the match. We were rather thrown together but had an interesting discussion,'' Taylor told The Sun. ''He was very fair about the referee and what had happened but equally he was very disappointed for Darren, as are we all.

''I tried to give Alex as much advice as I could with regards the procedure in these circumstances.

''There is no formal process. But if the club want to write to us with information - such as video evidence - explaining why they think this is a harsh punishment then they can do that.

''The likelihood is that we'd then refer the matter to our disciplinary body.

''They would then look to see if there were any special circumstances to justify any departure from established procedures. I must stress there is normally no way these matters can be overturned.''

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=644005&sec=uefachampionsleague&cc=5901

It's hilarious. What about all the other guys in the past? Heck, what about Abidal? Has Taylor spoken to Barcelona officials as well? Does he usually talk to the managers of clubs who see players ejected?

And then people want to pretend Manchester doesn't get a preferential treatment from UEFA?

[celticmaestro]

Cordobes, I like you, but this United bashing has to stop.

What United bashing?!? Where did I bash United? I was talking about the Chelsea vs. Barça game...

Typical United fan.. 

Not just today but in general.

When exactly? If you're going to accuse me of "bashing", I'd expect some evidence to support it. Otherwise, it's very unlike I'd expect from you.

I'm not going through all your posts, but we both know that you don't like United and have said things in the past the undermines them. Comparing them to Real Madrid for one when they are nothing like Real Madrid. When the British Royalty offer to pay off United debts, then you may have a case. Otherwise, Real Madrid are a horrible team with no morals.

I do like you cordobes and I respect your opinion, but at least admit that you're anti-United.

As for the Hulk penalty incident, I've seen them given and ignored. Honestly, it probably was a penalty. And I will say that United, over 2 legs, may have been lucky to beat Porto. However, the free-kick that was awarded for the Costinha goal a few years back was never, ever a free-kick. Swings and roundabouts, my friend.

I'm not complaining about Chelsea. There's no beating around the bush - they were robbed. However, the week before, Barca were robbed. And on many occasions in the past Chelsea have been the fortunate team.

I completely disagree with the theory of referees deciding games in the favor of big teams. If that was the case, United, Real Madrid, Bayern Munchen would win the European Cup every year. When AS Monaco knocked Liverpool out a few years back, they got an incredible number of calls, are you telling me Monaco are bigger than Liverpool?

The Fletcher red card was harsh on Darren, fair tackle that should have been commended rather than punished. However, I can live with this. The rules are clear, and therefore so be it. It was a mistake from Rosetti, but we move on and have to prepare for the game in 3 weeks. And the same goes for Abidal, who's red card was another awful decision.

Pbak, I TP'd you because that was a great post and I look forward to more of your stuff.

[cordobes]

I just hate seeing an innocent player miss the Final.

Why? If he hadn't attempted an unnecessary tackle, he wouldn't give the referee a chance to eject him. Or else, UEFA should consider putting Chelsea in the finals, because you certainly hate to see an innocent roster miss the Final because of some officiating mistakes, right?

Unless there's a huge double-standard.