Powe or Davis, who'll be the first power forward off the bench?

[nickagneta]

I think a lot of this argument depends on a few variables.

1.) Patrick O'Bryant - if POB starts slow and/or Doc has no trust in him and/or he just plain sucks, Glen Davis is this team's back up center. I don't care how short he is, he has the below the chest strength and size to push big men out of the way and just box them out for rebounds. If POB isn't doing it, BBD gets the backup center minutes.

2.) Foul trouble - in a perfect world none of our starters ever have to come out but if they do because of foul trouble, that will effect who comes out first. If Garnett, then I see Powe, if Perk then I see Davis. That's based on POB not doing anything. If POB is performing and getting soe playing time, then it comes down to 3 and 4.

3.) Matchups - there are just some players that Powe can't handle that Davis can and vice versa. That will be the first determining factor no matter what, as far as I am concerned.

4.) Davis' conditioning - if Davis comes into camp in better shape and, this is very important, maintains that conditioning through the year, he will get a load of minutes. He, unlike Powe, has a real offensive game and considering Doc's love of having two separate teams(yuck), there's not going to be a ton of offense on the florr with that second group. Davis in shape has the shooting, passing and dribbling skills to get his own shot off. Powe doesn't. If he is in shape Davis is playing minutes this year.

5.) The players ceilings - just how good can either player get? Have we seen the best that either player can be and if not, when they realize their full potential just who will be the better player. At the end of last year that player was Powe. But we may have seen the best that Powe can be. Only consistency would be expected now, maybe. But Big Baby hasn't scratched the surface as to just how good he could be. But will he ever get that good? Seriously good question that the answer to could be no. He may not be able to fight his eating demons or work hard enough.

So, all that said, either one could on any given night be the first PF off the bench. But if Baby is playing center, then the answer will be Powe.

I agree with everything said except this one phrase. You don't score 20 pts a game at a big school with no offensive skills. You don't score the way Powe did the last 1/3rd of the season with no offensive skills. I would argue that BBD has LESS offensive skills than Powe because not only can he post people up like BBD can, he has legitimate face up shooting ability from mid range. BBD is absolutely TERRIBLE with his jumpshot. He is creative around the basket out of necessity. That does not translate into huge upside nor great overall offensive skills. It just makes him a decent undersized post player...

Scoring 20 points per game in college means nothing when it comes to having NBA offensive skills. JJ Reddick and a host of other players that just aren't good pros are proof of that, so I wouldn't fall back on the "because Powe could score 20 per in the PAC10 he has an NBA offensive game" argument.

Also, of the two, Davis in college and from what I have seen in the pros had a way better and more consistent jumper. I love Powe's toughness, hustle, and ability to score underneath. I truly do. But as a scoring option he lacks when compared to Davis who has better passing skills, what I feel is the better ability to develop an outside jumper, just as good of an underneath game, and only slightly less ability to score off the offensive rebound.

Powe is the better defender. He uses his body more and hands less, has an uncanny ability of forcing defensive charges, and can guard bigger 3's. Baby on the otherhand has quick hands and slower defensive feet and will always be called for more fouls defensively than Powe. But he has the ability to guard centers effectively.

I think they both bring unique skills that in many ways compliment each other and if one of the rooks excels the small lineup of Powe, Davis, Allen, House, and Walker/Giddens would make a very interesting second team(yuck).

We can agree to disagree, I just think Davis brings a more all around and eventually much more polished offensive game than Powe who tends to get most of his points in the garbage variety or through forcing fouls on the defense. That works for him and is great but can easily disappear around smart, athletic defenders.

[EJPLAYA]

I think a lot of this argument depends on a few variables.

1.) Patrick O'Bryant - if POB starts slow and/or Doc has no trust in him and/or he just plain sucks, Glen Davis is this team's back up center. I don't care how short he is, he has the below the chest strength and size to push big men out of the way and just box them out for rebounds. If POB isn't doing it, BBD gets the backup center minutes.

2.) Foul trouble - in a perfect world none of our starters ever have to come out but if they do because of foul trouble, that will effect who comes out first. If Garnett, then I see Powe, if Perk then I see Davis. That's based on POB not doing anything. If POB is performing and getting soe playing time, then it comes down to 3 and 4.

3.) Matchups - there are just some players that Powe can't handle that Davis can and vice versa. That will be the first determining factor no matter what, as far as I am concerned.

4.) Davis' conditioning - if Davis comes into camp in better shape and, this is very important, maintains that conditioning through the year, he will get a load of minutes. He, unlike Powe, has a real offensive game and considering Doc's love of having two separate teams(yuck), there's not going to be a ton of offense on the florr with that second group. Davis in shape has the shooting, passing and dribbling skills to get his own shot off. Powe doesn't. If he is in shape Davis is playing minutes this year.

5.) The players ceilings - just how good can either player get? Have we seen the best that either player can be and if not, when they realize their full potential just who will be the better player. At the end of last year that player was Powe. But we may have seen the best that Powe can be. Only consistency would be expected now, maybe. But Big Baby hasn't scratched the surface as to just how good he could be. But will he ever get that good? Seriously good question that the answer to could be no. He may not be able to fight his eating demons or work hard enough.

So, all that said, either one could on any given night be the first PF off the bench. But if Baby is playing center, then the answer will be Powe.

I agree with everything said except this one phrase. You don't score 20 pts a game at a big school with no offensive skills. You don't score the way Powe did the last 1/3rd of the season with no offensive skills. I would argue that BBD has LESS offensive skills than Powe because not only can he post people up like BBD can, he has legitimate face up shooting ability from mid range. BBD is absolutely TERRIBLE with his jumpshot. He is creative around the basket out of necessity. That does not translate into huge upside nor great overall offensive skills. It just makes him a decent undersized post player...

Scoring 20 points per game in college means nothing when it comes to having NBA offensive skills. JJ Reddick and a host of other players that just aren't good pros are proof of that, so I wouldn't fall back on the "because Powe could score 20 per in the PAC10 he has an NBA offensive game" argument.

Also, of the two, Davis in college and from what I have seen in the pros had a way better and more consistent jumper. I love Powe's toughness, hustle, and ability to score underneath. I truly do. But as a scoring option he lacks when compared to Davis who has better passing skills, what I feel is the better ability to develop an outside jumper, just as good of an underneath game, and only slightly less ability to score off the offensive rebound.

Powe is the better defender. He uses his body more and hands less, has an uncanny ability of forcing defensive charges, and can guard bigger 3's. Baby on the otherhand has quick hands and slower defensive feet and will always be called for more fouls defensively than Powe. But he has the ability to guard centers effectively.

I think they both bring unique skills that in many ways compliment each other and if one of the rooks excels the small lineup of Powe, Davis, Allen, House, and Walker/Giddens would make a very interesting second team(yuck).

We can agree to disagree, I just think Davis brings a more all around and eventually much more polished offensive game than Powe who tends to get most of his points in the garbage variety or through forcing fouls on the defense. That works for him and is great but can easily disappear around smart, athletic defenders.

Have you SEEN BBD shoot a face up jumper. That is the most ridiculous looking attempt at a jumper I have seen since Sean Marion or Josh Childress. The difference being THEIRS at least goes down with some consistency. That leaves his post game on offense. Nothing more. I give a slight edge to BBD on that one, but considering it is slight and Powe can face up and has nice touch from 15 feet I still think he wins. I agree with you that Powe is a better defender, and I think he is a much better rebounder. We can definitely agree to disagree (TP for you like always!) but I just don't see how anyone can look at the two's body of work and then add their desire into it and not think Powe wins it running away!

[BballTim]

I think a lot of this argument depends on a few variables.

1.) Patrick O'Bryant - if POB starts slow and/or Doc has no trust in him and/or he just plain sucks, Glen Davis is this team's back up center. I don't care how short he is, he has the below the chest strength and size to push big men out of the way and just box them out for rebounds. If POB isn't doing it, BBD gets the backup center minutes.

2.) Foul trouble - in a perfect world none of our starters ever have to come out but if they do because of foul trouble, that will effect who comes out first. If Garnett, then I see Powe, if Perk then I see Davis. That's based on POB not doing anything. If POB is performing and getting soe playing time, then it comes down to 3 and 4.

3.) Matchups - there are just some players that Powe can't handle that Davis can and vice versa. That will be the first determining factor no matter what, as far as I am concerned.

4.) Davis' conditioning - if Davis comes into camp in better shape and, this is very important, maintains that conditioning through the year, he will get a load of minutes. He, unlike Powe, has a real offensive game and considering Doc's love of having two separate teams(yuck), there's not going to be a ton of offense on the florr with that second group. Davis in shape has the shooting, passing and dribbling skills to get his own shot off. Powe doesn't. If he is in shape Davis is playing minutes this year.

5.) The players ceilings - just how good can either player get? Have we seen the best that either player can be and if not, when they realize their full potential just who will be the better player. At the end of last year that player was Powe. But we may have seen the best that Powe can be. Only consistency would be expected now, maybe. But Big Baby hasn't scratched the surface as to just how good he could be. But will he ever get that good? Seriously good question that the answer to could be no. He may not be able to fight his eating demons or work hard enough.

So, all that said, either one could on any given night be the first PF off the bench. But if Baby is playing center, then the answer will be Powe.

I agree with everything said except this one phrase. You don't score 20 pts a game at a big school with no offensive skills. You don't score the way Powe did the last 1/3rd of the season with no offensive skills. I would argue that BBD has LESS offensive skills than Powe because not only can he post people up like BBD can, he has legitimate face up shooting ability from mid range. BBD is absolutely TERRIBLE with his jumpshot. He is creative around the basket out of necessity. That does not translate into huge upside nor great overall offensive skills. It just makes him a decent undersized post player...

Scoring 20 points per game in college means nothing when it comes to having NBA offensive skills. JJ Reddick and a host of other players that just aren't good pros are proof of that, so I wouldn't fall back on the "because Powe could score 20 per in the PAC10 he has an NBA offensive game" argument.

Also, of the two, Davis in college and from what I have seen in the pros had a way better and more consistent jumper.

  Yet Powe had the higher jump shooting % of the two (although neither are good...).

[EJPLAYA]

I think a lot of this argument depends on a few variables.

1.) Patrick O'Bryant - if POB starts slow and/or Doc has no trust in him and/or he just plain sucks, Glen Davis is this team's back up center. I don't care how short he is, he has the below the chest strength and size to push big men out of the way and just box them out for rebounds. If POB isn't doing it, BBD gets the backup center minutes.

2.) Foul trouble - in a perfect world none of our starters ever have to come out but if they do because of foul trouble, that will effect who comes out first. If Garnett, then I see Powe, if Perk then I see Davis. That's based on POB not doing anything. If POB is performing and getting soe playing time, then it comes down to 3 and 4.

3.) Matchups - there are just some players that Powe can't handle that Davis can and vice versa. That will be the first determining factor no matter what, as far as I am concerned.

4.) Davis' conditioning - if Davis comes into camp in better shape and, this is very important, maintains that conditioning through the year, he will get a load of minutes. He, unlike Powe, has a real offensive game and considering Doc's love of having two separate teams(yuck), there's not going to be a ton of offense on the florr with that second group. Davis in shape has the shooting, passing and dribbling skills to get his own shot off. Powe doesn't. If he is in shape Davis is playing minutes this year.

5.) The players ceilings - just how good can either player get? Have we seen the best that either player can be and if not, when they realize their full potential just who will be the better player. At the end of last year that player was Powe. But we may have seen the best that Powe can be. Only consistency would be expected now, maybe. But Big Baby hasn't scratched the surface as to just how good he could be. But will he ever get that good? Seriously good question that the answer to could be no. He may not be able to fight his eating demons or work hard enough.

So, all that said, either one could on any given night be the first PF off the bench. But if Baby is playing center, then the answer will be Powe.

I agree with everything said except this one phrase. You don't score 20 pts a game at a big school with no offensive skills. You don't score the way Powe did the last 1/3rd of the season with no offensive skills. I would argue that BBD has LESS offensive skills than Powe because not only can he post people up like BBD can, he has legitimate face up shooting ability from mid range. BBD is absolutely TERRIBLE with his jumpshot. He is creative around the basket out of necessity. That does not translate into huge upside nor great overall offensive skills. It just makes him a decent undersized post player...

Scoring 20 points per game in college means nothing when it comes to having NBA offensive skills. JJ Reddick and a host of other players that just aren't good pros are proof of that, so I wouldn't fall back on the "because Powe could score 20 per in the PAC10 he has an NBA offensive game" argument.

Also, of the two, Davis in college and from what I have seen in the pros had a way better and more consistent jumper.

  Yet Powe had the higher jump shooting % of the two (although neither are good...).

I am not looking for him to be a great outside shooter, but it needs to be respectable enough that he can face someone up and they wouldn't be able to just backup and let him shoot. If I was guarding BBD and I saw him put that up there I would take 2 steps back and dare the guy to shoot. Powe would make me close on him and he can put it on the floor and go hard to the rim and dunk. Or get fouled which he shoots a respectable %. Yet another reason to give the edge to Powe. 5% better free throw percentage. 71% is not great, but 66% sure doesn't sound like a guy who is some offensive juggernaut!

[nickagneta]

First year in the league BBD and Powe had the exact same jump shot percentages. In their last year of college BBD had a better 3 pt FG% in college going 17 for 59 while Leon went 3 for 9. To me that shws a more consistent jump shot. He shot jump shots more and made more of them. At least long range.

[EJPLAYA]

First year in the league BBD and Powe had the exact same jump shot percentages. In their last year of college BBD had a better 3 pt FG% in college going 17 for 59 while Leon went 3 for 9. To me that shws a more consistent jump shot. He shot jump shots more and made more of them. At least long range.

To me it shows Powe was smart enough not to take a shot he wasn't capable of making! You're really not trying to say that a 29% three point percentage is something that he should be proud of are you?! You're also doing your math wrong tonight because 33% (3-9) is better than 28.8% (17-59).

If my big power forward  who is supposedly this offensive genius on the post took 59 three pointers and shot less than 29 percent with those, he'd find his big fat behind riding the pine!!!

No matter how you try and spin it BBD has an absolutely horrid looking jump shot that he shoots at a terrible low percentage!

[nickagneta]

First year in the league BBD and Powe had the exact same jump shot percentages. In their last year of college BBD had a better 3 pt FG% in college going 17 for 59 while Leon went 3 for 9. To me that shws a more consistent jump shot. He shot jump shots more and made more of them. At least long range.

To me it shows Powe was smart enough not to take a shot he wasn't capable of making! You're really not trying to say that a 29% three point percentage is something that he should be proud of are you?! You're also doing your math wrong tonight because 33% (3-9) is better than 28.8% (17-59).

If my big power forward  who is supposedly this offensive genius on the post took 59 three pointers and shot less than 29 percent with those, he'd find his big fat behind riding the pine!!!

No matter how you try and spin it BBD has an absolutely horrid looking jump shot that he shoots at a terrible low percentage!

1.) I made a typo. That was 17-49 and that is 34.7% from threes which is a pretty decent number from long range for a big guy. What that tells me is that he has the confidence and ability, with work, to develop that 15-18 foot shot. especially if he can hit at 34.&% from 19feet and beyond.

2.) No need to twist my words or put words into my mouth to prove your point. I never called him or insinuated or even hinted that he was an offensive genius. I said that he had a better ability to consistently hit an outside shot than Leon Powe does. That is it. I even said that Powe had just as good of a post game. Just because I feel that Davis has the ability in him to eventually develop that shot doesn't mean he will do it or has yet. It just means I think he has the tools that make him more likely to develop that shot than does Leon.

3.) Ugly shots don't always equate to non successful shots. Rondo's outside shot isn't a thing of beauty and was darn ugly his rookie year. But he has that ability to develop it and his shot this year was more successful. Ugly but successful. Not as ugly as his first year but ugly. As you mentioned, Marion and Childress have ugly shots. It doesn't mean they are poor shooters.

In closing on this subject, because as I started to say at the beginning we'll just agree to disagree, all I am saying about Baby's offensive game as compared to that of Powe is that Baby has more potential to be a scoring option because he is better at certain things in that area than Leon and because of the 2 he has the better chance to develop an outside shot because he has more confidence in shooting it, is more comfortable in shooting it, and because he has had a bit of success with it.

[BillfromBoston]

I'm pretty positive that Leon Powe is a substantially better post player than Glen Davis, he's faster, more explosive, and uses his face-up game to muuch greater effect when attacking the basket.

As for the rest of his offensive game, his ability to get to the FT line alone makes him a better offensive player imo, because his offensive efficiency is through the roof-much higher than Davis.

As for "potential", I agree that Davis has a ton of untapped potential, but he is also low probability to maximize that potential because of how out of shape he is...even if he drastically improves, the likelihood that he gets anywhere close to Leon Powe's level of physical conditioning...

As far as the jumpshot argument...Davis may have more potential there, but it was Powe that shot better on jumpers this past year and unlike  the elevation-challenged Davis, Powe never had to use his jumper in college. But Powe has shown a pretty decent touch on his set and pull-up shots and, unlike Davis, there is NO QUESTION that he will maximize every ounce of his potential. Relative to the possible difference in their respective potential in this area, I'll put my money on Powe.

Powe was a dominant scorer in college because he was EXCEPTIONAL at scoring on the interior. He has shown over the course of his NBA career thus far that he ability to score on the interior has translated over.

Powe's game grew over the course of the season as well. The team gave him more and more ISO/POST looks as the season went on and he continued to produce. Davis produced maybe 1/10th of the quality plays that Powe did, but I'll cut him slack for it being his first year....

...but at the end of the day this debate is about what is LIKELY to happen, not a debate on what either could be, at their max, IF they both reached it...Powe is a much surer thing and he is marginally-if at all-less talented...people fall in love with Davis I believe because of his combination of agility-to-size..but Powe IS more productive and I believe will remain so for the foreseeable future...

[BballTim]

In closing on this subject, because as I started to say at the beginning we'll just agree to disagree, all I am saying about Baby's offensive game as compared to that of Powe is that Baby has more potential to be a scoring option because he is better at certain things in that area than Leon and because of the 2 he has the better chance to develop an outside shot because he has more confidence in shooting it, is more comfortable in shooting it, and because he has had a bit of success with it.

  I think that Davis will be somewhat limited offensively because of his lack of explosiveness or jumping ability. He was basically handed the backup pf spot over Powe at the beginning of the season and lost it over time. And I don't think it's great that his numbers were better before the all-star break than they were after.

[BillfromBoston]

Powe is much more consistent than BBD. I don't want to hear about the 3-4 games that BBD played out of his mind last year. I'll show you 3 times that many from Powe, and a much more consistent effort the rest of them. Powe is dependable and wants it more. BBD should be used to solidify another spot with a trade. Let someone else watch him balloon and slim down his whole career which I think is in his future... Too bad though because he is sure a likeable personality.

Don't forget that Baby was just a rookie and played better in his rookie year than Powe did in his rookie year.  Also, Davis played better defense as a rookie than Powe did in his 2nd year.  Don't sell Baby short, he can improve just as Powe did.

Of course BBD should improve his second year, but so will Powe with his added confidence from the endo of last year. Go look at the guys numbers since the middle of January! He was outstanding! I am not sure how BBD is heralded as this great player with huge upside yet Powe, who was amazing at Cal before his injury, had better College stats. Powe put up 20-10 and BBD put up 17.7 and 10. The big difference in my eyes is that Powe simply wants it more. Period! You look at their actions in the offseasons and the shape they keep themselves in and it is plain. Powe was tearing up the league the last third of the season and BBD was riding the pine. Doc and Danny both know what they have. Even if many of you on here don't. I'd love BBD to prove me wrong, but not too likely.

....I completely agree and I think this part is missed by most fans in the Powe/Davis debate...I just don't understand how people continue to chalk up Powe as a "finished product" and keep heralding Davis for his "potential"...Davis only has more potential in terms of his ability to become not-a-fat-ass by getting himself in peak physical conditioning...IF Davis was in peak physical condition we may have an argument worth talking about...

But Davis is EXTREMELY unlikely to every be in peak physical condition...he is more likely to always be a bowling-ball of power and finesse, capable of fancy things, but never getting the explosiveness or true quickness necissary to match what Powe can already do...

If this team didn't have Powe, i'd be all about Glen Davis, he was one of my favorite players in college and I was happy to see the C's get him...I was also super high on Powe coming out of Cal and this past season gave me the chance to evaluate both of them...watching both, it is pretty clear that Davis DOES NOT have this vastly superior potential IMO...Powe was outstanding at attacking opponents in post-up situations, using the face-up to set up drives to the hoop and using hooks, spins, runners, and just pure power to go up, over, and around his man...I expect them to give Powe more offensive possessions this year...

Davis has a huge hitch in his jump shot and gets no lift when shooting,  so his shot is naturally flat and has little margin for error...Powe shoots too far in front of his head and uses his forearm to push the ball, so his shots varies from short to long depending on the touch he puts on the ball...both have to work on their mechanics for jump-shooting, so I don't see this as being some huge advantage for Davis-the fact that Powe shot better further substantiates this...

It seems to always come down to Davis and his "amazing" passing as well as his "superior"  defense...let's get this straight right now..Davis is a better man defender on HUGE centers, because he is a load and holds his ground, Powe is the better man defender at PF, which is their natural position...Powe also defends in space better out on the perimeter, having superior quickness and speed to Davis...where Davis is superior is in TEAM defense. Clearly the difference there wasn't enough to keep Powe from taking the majority of the minutes at the 4 by mid-season though, so the idea that this is a huge black hole for Powe is vastly overrated.

As far as the passing goes, Davis didn't make a helluva lot of plays with his passing, despite all the hype...I do think he can and will develop this facet of his game and I do think it'll be better than Powe's, but its not actually there yet and BOTH players are going to improve in this area...I highly doubt Powe will remain a non-passer throughout his career. In fact, Powe was passing out of double-teams consistently over the last part of the season and picked his spots much better-showing patience and understanding of situations...

Both players are going to be solid pros for sure, but unless Davis gets down to about 265-or whatever his weight is at 10% body fat-he'll never be the player Powe will be...IF he does get there, the two players are still very comparable in terms of skill set...

Davis = Anthony Mason at full potential, (Mason actually started out skinny and gained weight. )
Powe = David West at full potential, (more post play, less shooting--check out West in his first 3 years before balking--West made himself a good shooter, he started out a tweener with below average shot.)

I can't say what the probabilities of them reaching that potential is, but I like Powe's chances better because he's already a physical specimen...if they both reach the peak I think it becomes a matter of what the team needs, but I don't see a big gap in talent...if i'm wrong, so be it...but i think i've seen enough to make an accurate judgment in their respective abilities and the team only has one more year to do the same...Powe is further  along and has fewer question marks in terms of work ethic...the math seems to be on his side...

...now if Powe prices himself out of the team's range....that changes things...