Author Topic: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap  (Read 9792 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2008, 06:18:52 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
LeBron James is 23 years old. When his contract runs out he will be 24. If at that time he goes overseas for two years to the tune of $100 million plus endorsement money, when he returns to play in the NBA he will be 26 and have the ability to sign with anyone. If he wanted he could sign with the defending champ for the MLE because with all the cash he made in Europe, he wouldn't necessarily need to sign for a max contract that would probably only be available from a really bad team.

Michael Jordan, His Airness, who Kobe and LeBron will always compare their legacy to, was 28 years old when he won his first title. He then won 6 in the next 8 years. With a 2 year head start, a boatload of cash already in his pocket, and the ability to hand pick his desired destination, LeBron could still go on to win more titles than Jordan did.

So I think the point I am trying to make is don't discount LeBron's legacy because he went Euro and for the Euro for two years. He is still remarkably young for someone so accomplished and going to Europe and pocketing all that money could very well be just the thing that will free him up to make the decision to take less money to go to a contender or champion than to go to Brooklyn and be stuck in the same rut that he is stuck in in Cleveland.

So before dismissing LeBron off as a money grubbing afterthought because at an extremely young age he decided to make tons of cash and give him the luxury of hand picking his future, think again. It could very well assure his legacy.



Regardless of whether he goes to Europe or not, I don't see Lebron deciding to play for less than a max contract in the NBA for at least another decade.  Money equates with respect in the NBA, and Lebron isn't going to sit back while lesser players make two to three times more than him, regardless of whether he already made his fortune elsewhere.  I mean, it's not like Lebron couldn't play for the MLE *now* and be rich beyond our wildest dreams for the rest of his life.  (He's earned in excess of $31 million already, plus he's guaranteed $30.1 million more.  He's made at least double that in endorsements.  I'm pretty sure that at this point, after earning $100 million+, Lebron could pretty much play anywhere for free, and still be making out okay.) 

Also, I'm not sure how signing with the defending NBA champion would improve Lebron's legacy.  If he wins, he's a ring chaser who couldn't do it on his own.  If he loses, he couldn't even win with an elite team around him.  Either way, such a plan wouldn't improve his legacy in the slightest.  That doesn't mean he has to sign with a lousy team, but the scenario you laid out would backfire on him.

And yes, I do think a top-flight NBA player chasing money in the prime of his career, to play against vastly inferior competition, is damaging to his legacy.  Lebron would be conceding his status as second best player of his generation behind Kobe if he made this move.  (Similarly, if Kobe left, he would be admitting that he couldn't win in the NBA without Shaq).

Neither player will leave.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2008, 06:24:23 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

  • NCE
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2892
  • Tommy Points: 285
Stern loves what is going on here.  There's not much need for a minor league like the NBDL to lose money on if overseas becomes a major minor league and a development league all in one.  Losing a player of some note here or there is irrelevent.  No prominent star will leave the NBA because the endorsement money they make as an NBA player dwarfs what they make no matter how much an overseas team pays them.  Their endorsement money as an NBA player will dwarf any endorsement money and salary combined a prominent player would make overseas.

This has no effect on what Stern does regarding the NBA's salary cap or anything else NBA whatsoever and never will.  If Stern didn't want this to happen, we wouldn't be playing all of these exhibitions overseas and he sure as hell wouldn't be risking injury to his best players in that staged fraud that they're playing in now.

The messiah or Kobe could care less about their legacy.  Playing overseas wouldn't affect that anyway.  They can't make nearly the money overseas that they can make stateside.  So they're not going anywhere.  There is a good chance that the messiah will become the NBA's first billionaire when his Knick contract comes to an end in 2016 between salary and endorsements.  The messiah has told us that it's all about the money when he tells us he wants to be the NBA's first billionaire.  He'll make it in the USA's biggest market.  What it also means, sadly, is that we'll all be subjected to ad-nauseum stupid messiah commercials.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2008, 06:46:49 PM »

Offline jay_jay54

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1307
  • Tommy Points: 266
I can't see top flight players in the NBA going overseas to play,but players with less to lose here,who are put in a situation like Childress was, and young enough to comeback and play in the NBA,will look a lot harder at making that move.Atlanta could have paid him more to keep him... more players might see it as he did and jump to offers overseas,in the future.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 06:52:12 PM by jay_jay54 »

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2008, 07:27:13 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
LeBron James is 23 years old. When his contract runs out he will be 24. If at that time he goes overseas for two years to the tune of $100 million plus endorsement money, when he returns to play in the NBA he will be 26 and have the ability to sign with anyone. If he wanted he could sign with the defending champ for the MLE because with all the cash he made in Europe, he wouldn't necessarily need to sign for a max contract that would probably only be available from a really bad team.

Michael Jordan, His Airness, who Kobe and LeBron will always compare their legacy to, was 28 years old when he won his first title. He then won 6 in the next 8 years. With a 2 year head start, a boatload of cash already in his pocket, and the ability to hand pick his desired destination, LeBron could still go on to win more titles than Jordan did.

So I think the point I am trying to make is don't discount LeBron's legacy because he went Euro and for the Euro for two years. He is still remarkably young for someone so accomplished and going to Europe and pocketing all that money could very well be just the thing that will free him up to make the decision to take less money to go to a contender or champion than to go to Brooklyn and be stuck in the same rut that he is stuck in in Cleveland.

So before dismissing LeBron off as a money grubbing afterthought because at an extremely young age he decided to make tons of cash and give him the luxury of hand picking his future, think again. It could very well assure his legacy.



Regardless of whether he goes to Europe or not, I don't see Lebron deciding to play for less than a max contract in the NBA for at least another decade.  Money equates with respect in the NBA, and Lebron isn't going to sit back while lesser players make two to three times more than him, regardless of whether he already made his fortune elsewhere.  I mean, it's not like Lebron couldn't play for the MLE *now* and be rich beyond our wildest dreams for the rest of his life.  (He's earned in excess of $31 million already, plus he's guaranteed $30.1 million more.  He's made at least double that in endorsements.  I'm pretty sure that at this point, after earning $100 million+, Lebron could pretty much play anywhere for free, and still be making out okay.) 

Also, I'm not sure how signing with the defending NBA champion would improve Lebron's legacy.  If he wins, he's a ring chaser who couldn't do it on his own.  If he loses, he couldn't even win with an elite team around him.  Either way, such a plan wouldn't improve his legacy in the slightest.  That doesn't mean he has to sign with a lousy team, but the scenario you laid out would backfire on him.

And yes, I do think a top-flight NBA player chasing money in the prime of his career, to play against vastly inferior competition, is damaging to his legacy.  Lebron would be conceding his status as second best player of his generation behind Kobe if he made this move.  (Similarly, if Kobe left, he would be admitting that he couldn't win in the NBA without Shaq).

Neither player will leave.
I kindly will disagree with you. because in the scenario I laid out if he does go on an extensive run of championships with that team

1.) he will eventually be earning top dollar
2.) history doesn't look back the way you say.

History looks back and applauds winners. If he went on a string of championships that eventually equaled or bettered MJ, that is what will be remembered. That he won is all that will matter in retrospect because going to a winning team and then continuing the winning ways for years would eventually transform that team into his and how he got there will eventually be forgotten.

Besides he doesn't even have to go to the defending champs. All he would have to do is go to a team that is contending and has the parts there and situation there to win long term.

You may be right about taking less money upon his return to the NBA, I can't say you are wrong there. Most players in the NBA look at things that way. Of course, after making all his endorsement money over the two years and the $100 million that would be largely untaxed, I guess returning to the NBA and taking relative chump change but being able to justify it by saying that he is the player that earned more money in one year than any other player in history, including Michael Jordan's $33 million that largely was taxed, might be a pretty good way of saying that it really doesn't matter what you make now.

If he's already made $31 million and maybe double that in endorsements, maybe this doesn't look like a feasible scenario. But if he's then looking at it like he made that $91 million plus the $100 million plus another let's say $50 million in additional endorsements, it might be easier to look at it after having already earned a quarter of a billion dollars and not already having won an NBA title ans saying, let's take less money until that team has the right to give me a max contract and win some titles.

For instance, if after earning all that money he decides teaming with Dwight Howard and the Magic with some pretty decent peripheral talent there will easily get him multiple titles, why wouldn't he do it. Sure he could do it now, but that decision to do it might be easier to make after he already holds the single season earning record and has an additional $150 million in his pocket.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2008, 09:15:07 PM »

Offline jay_jay54

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1307
  • Tommy Points: 266
LeBron James is 23 years old. When his contract runs out he will be 24. If at that time he goes overseas for two years to the tune of $100 million plus endorsement money, when he returns to play in the NBA he will be 26 and have the ability to sign with anyone. If he wanted he could sign with the defending champ for the MLE because with all the cash he made in Europe, he wouldn't necessarily need to sign for a max contract that would probably only be available from a really bad team.

Michael Jordan, His Airness, who Kobe and LeBron will always compare their legacy to, was 28 years old when he won his first title. He then won 6 in the next 8 years. With a 2 year head start, a boatload of cash already in his pocket, and the ability to hand pick his desired destination, LeBron could still go on to win more titles than Jordan did.

So I think the point I am trying to make is don't discount LeBron's legacy because he went Euro and for the Euro for two years. He is still remarkably young for someone so accomplished and going to Europe and pocketing all that money could very well be just the thing that will free him up to make the decision to take less money to go to a contender or champion than to go to Brooklyn and be stuck in the same rut that he is stuck in in Cleveland.

So before dismissing LeBron off as a money grubbing afterthought because at an extremely young age he decided to make tons of cash and give him the luxury of hand picking his future, think again. It could very well assure his legacy.



Regardless of whether he goes to Europe or not, I don't see Lebron deciding to play for less than a max contract in the NBA for at least another decade.  Money equates with respect in the NBA, and Lebron isn't going to sit back while lesser players make two to three times more than him, regardless of whether he already made his fortune elsewhere.  I mean, it's not like Lebron couldn't play for the MLE *now* and be rich beyond our wildest dreams for the rest of his life.  (He's earned in excess of $31 million already, plus he's guaranteed $30.1 million more.  He's made at least double that in endorsements.  I'm pretty sure that at this point, after earning $100 million+, Lebron could pretty much play anywhere for free, and still be making out okay.) 

Also, I'm not sure how signing with the defending NBA champion would improve Lebron's legacy.  If he wins, he's a ring chaser who couldn't do it on his own.  If he loses, he couldn't even win with an elite team around him.  Either way, such a plan wouldn't improve his legacy in the slightest.  That doesn't mean he has to sign with a lousy team, but the scenario you laid out would backfire on him.

And yes, I do think a top-flight NBA player chasing money in the prime of his career, to play against vastly inferior competition, is damaging to his legacy.  Lebron would be conceding his status as second best player of his generation behind Kobe if he made this move.  (Similarly, if Kobe left, he would be admitting that he couldn't win in the NBA without Shaq).

Neither player will leave.
I kindly will disagree with you. because in the scenario I laid out if he does go on an extensive run of championships with that team

1.) he will eventually be earning top dollar
2.) history doesn't look back the way you say.

History looks back and applauds winners. If he went on a string of championships that eventually equaled or bettered MJ, that is what will be remembered. That he won is all that will matter in retrospect because going to a winning team and then continuing the winning ways for years would eventually transform that team into his and how he got there will eventually be forgotten.

Besides he doesn't even have to go to the defending champs. All he would have to do is go to a team that is contending and has the parts there and situation there to win long term.

You may be right about taking less money upon his return to the NBA, I can't say you are wrong there. Most players in the NBA look at things that way. Of course, after making all his endorsement money over the two years and the $100 million that would be largely untaxed, I guess returning to the NBA and taking relative chump change but being able to justify it by saying that he is the player that earned more money in one year than any other player in history, including Michael Jordan's $33 million that largely was taxed, might be a pretty good way of saying that it really doesn't matter what you make now.

If he's already made $31 million and maybe double that in endorsements, maybe this doesn't look like a feasible scenario. But if he's then looking at it like he made that $91 million plus the $100 million plus another let's say $50 million in additional endorsements, it might be easier to look at it after having already earned a quarter of a billion dollars and not already having won an NBA title ans saying, let's take less money until that team has the right to give me a max contract and win some titles.

For instance, if after earning all that money he decides teaming with Dwight Howard and the Magic with some pretty decent peripheral talent there will easily get him multiple titles, why wouldn't he do it. Sure he could do it now, but that decision to do it might be easier to make after he already holds the single season earning record and has an additional $150 million in his pocket.
Nick,the way this all is shaping up,and staring to sound ,when he returns,maybe he will look at a bigger picture,become part owner of a team ?

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2008, 09:25:49 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 536
  • Tommy Points: 56
All that LeBron is doing is putting pressure on the Cavs to go out and get him real teammates. He is keeping his options open by stating that he *would* leave cleveland if the dough is lucrative enough.

But setting aside money here, does LeBron really want to leave the NBA? He could earn all the money in the world signing shoe contracts and doing commercials RIGHT HERE in America. Think about it. Does LeBron want to solidify his legacy as a product of the hype machine, with no titles to back it up? To the casual fan who watched LeBron grow as an athlete, we know his lack of hardware is not really his fault. We all know how unfortunate his circumstances have been with regard to the quality of teammates.

Imagine how successful the Cavs would be if they kept Boozer? LeBron would have won at least one title!

Quite frankly, there are some things you can't put a price on. LeBron to me is someone who will take less money to play for a title in the best league in the world. He entered the league wanting to develop his own legacy in the likes of MJ and Dominique. So if history is to remember him well, he must win titles in the NBA.

Dominique won title(s) in Greece. But do we remember him as a winner or loser?

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2008, 09:52:42 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45920
  • Tommy Points: 3340
If LeBron left it would change the league over night and it would also change the league he went to.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2008, 10:50:47 PM »

Offline billysan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3875
  • Tommy Points: 178
A lot depends on how much legacies,rings count from one player to the next,and how much does money have a bigger affect than the things traditionally  been the top priorities.Keep in mind 1 Euro = 1.5 U.S.Dollars today,that alone can change how some players view their careers.
You do realize that all that Euro money that has the taxes paid by teams in Europe will be taxed again by the U.S. Government when the bigshots want to bring it back into the states and invest or spend it. Does anyone think Lebron will leave all that money in Europe?

I just dont see the owners or the league taking this too seriously where the superstars are concerned. 8)
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2008, 12:02:44 AM »

Offline jay_jay54

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1307
  • Tommy Points: 266
A lot depends on how much legacies,rings count from one player to the next,and how much does money have a bigger affect than the things traditionally  been the top priorities.Keep in mind 1 Euro = 1.5 U.S.Dollars today,that alone can change how some players view their careers.
You do realize that all that Euro money that has the taxes paid by teams in Europe will be taxed again by the U.S. Government when the bigshots want to bring it back into the states and invest or spend it. Does anyone think Lebron will leave all that money in Europe?

I just dont see the owners or the league taking this too seriously where the superstars are concerned. 8)
I was mostly thinking about a lesser caliber player.I personally do not see Lebron going overseas.It might happen,but id be surprised if he really made that transition.With starting a new family,and havng it basically made over here,it seems more unlikely than likely in his case.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 12:36:36 AM by jay_jay54 »

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2008, 07:36:09 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
I personally don't think LeBron would go play overseas unless the offer was truly obscene and he just couldn't pass it down.

All I was trying to convey is that LeBron is soooo young that he could go overseas, stay there a couple of years making as much money playing basketball in two years as he could here playing for 6 or 7 years and still come back to the league and be 2 years younger than when MJ won his first title.

He could do it and in the end still win a ton of NBA titles.

I don't think he will, but he could and I don't believe for a second that when he retires it would cheapen his legacy one little bit.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2008, 09:07:45 AM »

Offline Chief

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21257
  • Tommy Points: 2451
I hope the NBA goes to a hard cap (higher than the cap is now) but gets rid of the guaranteed contract. It's not good for fans to have to suffer 5 years because a GM's mistake.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2008, 09:25:25 AM »

Offline billysan

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3875
  • Tommy Points: 178
I hope the NBA goes to a hard cap (higher than the cap is now) but gets rid of the guaranteed contract. It's not good for fans to have to suffer 5 years because a GM's mistake.
Agreed Chief, there are definitely some areas where the CBA could improve cap effect on a team. A higher hard cap (100K?) is one I am in favor of seeing. Make a players salary max 25% of a teams total per year, but dont count initial signing bonus against the cap. I think we lock in the rookie scale and dont count 1st or 2nd round picks against the teams cap for the duration of the initial contract to a max of 5 years. Give teams a non guaranteed clause option after a couple of years maybe to get out of contracts like a Darius Miles, Brian Cardinal, Stephon Marbury or Mark Blount for instance. I also think that contract length could be extended to max of 7 years if a team and the player wants it. I would put a number of games played/non performance clause in contracts of all players after the rookie deals. I would expand Rosters to 18 players with 14 eligible to dress, minimum 12 dressed.  8)
"First fix their hearts" -Eizo Shimabuku

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2008, 11:24:45 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48121
  • Tommy Points: 8800
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
I hope the NBA goes to a hard cap (higher than the cap is now) but gets rid of the guaranteed contract. It's not good for fans to have to suffer 5 years because a GM's mistake.
Agreed Chief, there are definitely some areas where the CBA could improve cap effect on a team. A higher hard cap (100K?) is one I am in favor of seeing. Make a players salary max 25% of a teams total per year, but dont count initial signing bonus against the cap. I think we lock in the rookie scale and dont count 1st or 2nd round picks against the teams cap for the duration of the initial contract to a max of 5 years. Give teams a non guaranteed clause option after a couple of years maybe to get out of contracts like a Darius Miles, Brian Cardinal, Stephon Marbury or Mark Blount for instance. I also think that contract length could be extended to max of 7 years if a team and the player wants it. I would put a number of games played/non performance clause in contracts of all players after the rookie deals. I would expand Rosters to 18 players with 14 eligible to dress, minimum 12 dressed.  8)
Good luck with any of that. Some of the stuff you wrote the players would strike against and some of the other stuff the owners would lockout the players for demanding.

If change is coming in the CBA it will come mildly. I think the general format would stay the same but the percentages in which everything is measured would move.

The players would never play another game if 100% guaranteed contracts are to be changed or contracts were to become incentive laden or based on # of games played.

The owners would never allow the players in the locker room if they demanded expansion of rosters to 18 players.

There are certain lines that either side will not allow the other to cross. Remember that. I think number percentages can be negotiable such as the percentage of revenue that dictates the cap numbers, the percentage of maximum raises given, and the percentage of by which max contracts are established.

I think certain other small allowances made be made such as the players giving in to a more stringent drug policy in exchange for a higher MLE and or a higher minimum veteran salary levels.

These are the types of things that might change. But never expect sweeping change unless something drastic happens.

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2008, 11:34:16 AM »

Offline Chief

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21257
  • Tommy Points: 2451
If players know that they could get better money over seas, then they might not care so much about the guaranteed contracts.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: Will International Leagues Destroy the Salary Cap
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2008, 11:35:54 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
I'm hopeful that the new CBA can incorporate some level of amnesty to allow teams to get cap / luxury tax relief, in the event that they cut a player.  Under such scenario, the player would still be paid his entire contract, but only a portion (or none at all) of that salary would continue to count against the cap / luxury tax. 

That's the only major change I'd like to see implemented.  There's an argument that such a system could benefit the richer teams, because they could constantly create cap room so long as they were willing to eat big contracts.  To combat this, you might limit the cap relief to one player every two years.  You could also potentially put a hard cap on total team payroll, limiting the amount a team can pay to players in any given year.  (In other words, teams could still go over the salary cap and the luxury tax, but they could *not* go over the "payroll" cap under any circumstances.  Only a portion of the salary of waived players would count against the salary cap / luxury tax, but their entire salary would count for purposes of the payroll cap.)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions